B12 expansion

[rrlbees]

I still believe the 16 team conference model is coming. Whether it is 4 x 16 or 5 x 16, I don't know. But I do think that the B12 will be the one to get cannibalized in all of this. The Pac12 will eventually need to add teams, and they're not going to add U of California San Obisbo. They're going to look to a Texas, and/or a Oklahoma, etc. The B10 will also look at a Texas/Oklahoma option -- and perhaps another eastern team to complement PSU. Of course, ND is at the very top of the B10 list. The SEC will look to Texas, and OK too.

Not sure what the ACC will do. My best guess is they will keep trying to lure ND, and then try to get the best FB team they can get. I think that will be more important to them than adding another northeast team.

What do you have against UCSO?

I agree with your points and why I said in another thread it could become a B12 v ACC death match.

 

[Scooch]

So we agree, there has been a plan even if just conceptual. BTW, non-bloggers like Jake C and Lew Perkins would agree with us.

No, we don't agree that there has been "a" plan. I said that it's easy to make plans. I'm sure lots of people have made drawn up plans.

Are you suggesting that sitting in a safe deposit box right now is "the" plan that has down on paper the 64 teams and their 4 league configuration?

 

[rrlbees]

No, we don't agree that there has been "a" plan. I said that it's easy to make plans. I'm sure lots of people have made drawn up plans.

Are you suggesting that sitting in a safe deposit box right now is "the" plan that has down on paper the 64 teams and their 4 league configuration?

Nope, never said that. You're taking the word plan to mean a document and I never said that.

 

[Scooch]

Nope, never said that. You're taking the word plan to mean a document and I never said that.

OK, that's fine. I just read some stuff here that might as well say "see, it's all coming together, 4X16, just the way C. Montgomery Burns drew it up in his mansion with Donald Trump, Roy Kramer, Jim Delaney, and Michael Jackson, 25 years ago".

 

[SU2NASA]

OK, that's fine. I just read some stuff here that might as well say "see, it's all coming together, 4X16, just the way C. Montgomery Burns drew it up in his mansion with Donald Trump, Roy Kramer, Jim Delaney, and Michael Jackson, 25 years ago".

If there's one thing I've learned from working at NASA it's that no matter how smart people may be, don't expect them to actually use logic when faced with stupid ideas.

 

[rrlbees]

If there's one thing I've learned from working at NASA it's that no matter how smart people may be, don't expect them to actually use logic when faced with stupid ideas.

An oldie from a couple years ago from Jake C.

Eventually, Crouthamel said he saw the Big Ten, the Atlantic Coast Conference, the Southeastern Conference and the Pacific-10 forming four 16-team superconferences and leaving the umbrella of the N.C.A.A. (Just imagine the fight between the SEC and the Pac-10 for Texas.) He said that those leagues would form their own basketball tournament to rival the N.C.A.A. tournament.
“If you look at the history of what’s been going on for the last decade, I think it’s leading in that direction,” he said.

 

[TexanMark]

I still believe the 16 team conference model is coming. Whether it is 4 x 16 or 5 x 16, I don't know. But I do think that the B12 will be the one to get cannibalized in all of this. The Pac12 will eventually need to add teams, and they're not going to add U of California San Obisbo. They're going to look to a Texas, and/or a Oklahoma, etc. The B10 will also look at a Texas/Oklahoma option -- and perhaps another eastern team to complement PSU. Of course, ND is at the very top of the B10 list. The SEC will look to Texas, and OK too.

Not sure what the ACC will do. My best guess is they will keep trying to lure ND, and then try to get the best FB team they can get. I think that will be more important to them than adding another northeast team.

Okay any Lawyers out there have an Opine on the Grantors Rights the B12 agreed too? Are they iron clad?

 

[arbitragegls]

Big 12 has not signed its 13 year GOR although it has been verbally agreed to as part of the new discussions with ESPN and FOX for the TV rights. However, since neither has been actually signed, there is definitely a means to get out. Once signed, it becomes much more complicated. So if Big 12 is to implode, the PAC 12 and or SEC need to make there move now--although after the GOR is signed I would think for a cost there will be an out. Afterall, contracts are made to be broken.

 

[SUATO92]

Big 12 has not signed its 13 year GOR although it has been verbally agreed to as part of the new discussions with ESPN and FOX for the TV rights. However, since neither has been actually signed, there is definitely a means to get out. Once signed, it becomes much more complicated. So if Big 12 is to implode, the PAC 12 and or SEC need to make there move now--although after the GOR is signed I would think for a cost there will be an out. Afterall, contracts are made to be broken.

Wouldn't it be funny if all this agitating by the Big 12 leads the Pac 12 to make a move and take the teams they shunned last summer. Oh the irony of WVU in that conference sans OU and Texas...

 

[RASWVU]

WVU fan here.

Not trying to be combative, but I wanteed to clear up some misinformation about the B12 GOR agreement. The original GOR for 6 years has been finalized and signed by all 10 current B12 members, whom are now bound by it's stipulations. (Here is your link

http://espn.go.com/blog/big12/post/_/id/45986/qa-big-12s-chuck-neinas-on-expansion

The extension of the GOR to 13 years is, at this point, a verbal agreement that will not be executed until the new TV deal for that same time period, is signed.

 

[sutomcat]

WVU fan here.

Not trying to be combative, but I wanteed to clear up some misinformation about the B12 GOR agreement. The original GOR for 6 years has been finalized and signed by all 10 current B12 members, whom are now bound by it's stipulations. (Here is your link

http://espn.go.com/blog/big12/post/_/id/45986/qa-big-12s-chuck-neinas-on-expansion

The extension of the GOR to 13 years is, at this point, a verbal agreement that will not be executed until the new TV deal for that same time period, is signed.

Appreciate that info RAS. Question for you: my understanding is that the Big 12 does not share revenue evenly among all members, even TV revenue. Do you know if this is true, and if it is not true, how they are going to break down the money by school?

 

[HOFCeluck]

WVU fan here.

Not trying to be combative, but I wanteed to clear up some misinformation about the B12 GOR agreement. The original GOR for 6 years has been finalized and signed by all 10 current B12 members, whom are now bound by it's stipulations. (Here is your link

http://espn.go.com/blog/big12/post/_/id/45986/qa-big-12s-chuck-neinas-on-expansion

The extension of the GOR to 13 years is, at this point, a verbal agreement that will not be executed until the new TV deal for that same time period, is signed.

I'm sure Texas will honor that...whether it wants to or not.

 

[RASWVU]

My understanding is that it may have been unequal in the past, but now there is equal sharing of Tier 1 and Tier 2 revenue, (that is the $20 million per year per team number that you see thrown around). Each individual member does retain their own Tier 3 rights, so that money is unequal, as it is up to each member to exploit those revenues to their own best advantage (this is where the Longhorn Network comes in). The other caveat is that WVU and TCU receive -partial shares the first 3 years, before becoming equal members.

 

[RASWVU]

I'm sure Texas will honor that...whether it wants to or not.

It is not really a matter of if they will honor that. Texas, or any other B12 member is free to leave the conference at any time that they want. There is no buyout. There is no waiting period.

The only problem is that they have already signed over ownership of their Tier 1 and Tier 2 media rights to the B12. That means that the B12 will collect the broadcast royalties for Texas games for the next 6 years, no matter what conference that they are playing in. Since the B12 now owns those rights, the onus would be on Texas to regain those rights, before they could allow their new conference to benefit from them. Since each member's reported media rights are $20 million per year, I would think that negotiations would start at the $120 million level.

From a practical standpoint, I do not think any conference would be interested in a current B12 member if they knew that it would be 6 years before they could profit off of their Tier 1 and 2 media rights. What conference would offer an official invitation until it was finalized that the new prospect had reaquired their media rights? What B12 member would be so set on leaving that they would want to undergo the battle and expense of reaquiring their media rights before they had an official invitation?

My opinion is that any current B12 member that had the slightest inkling of wanting to leave, would have never signed the GOR. It binds them much more tightly together than a buyout, and it certainly make TV negotiations more attractive, as ESPN knows that they are guarenteed of the media rights to the teams in the conference for the duration of their contract, without concerns to what happens with realignment.

 

[JJReddawg]

It is not really a matter of if they will honor that. Texas, or any other B12 member is free to leave the conference at any time that they want. There is no buyout. There is no waiting period.

The only problem is that they have already signed over ownership of their Tier 1 and Tier 2 media rights to the B12. That means that the B12 will collect the broadcast royalties for Texas games for the next 6 years, no matter what conference that they are playing in. Since the B12 now owns those rights, the onus would be on Texas to regain those rights, before they could allow their new conference to benefit from them. Since each member's reported media rights are $20 million per year, I would think that negotiations would start at the $120 million level.

From a practical standpoint, I do not think any conference would be interested in a current B12 member if they knew that it would be 6 years before they could profit off of their Tier 1 and 2 media rights. What conference would offer an official invitation until it was finalized that the new prospect had reaquired their media rights? What B12 member would be so set on leaving that they would want to undergo the battle and expense of reaquiring their media rights before they had an official invitation?

My opinion is that any current B12 member that had the slightest inkling of wanting to leave, would have never signed the GOR. It binds them much more tightly together than a buyout, and it certainly make TV negotiations more attractive, as ESPN knows that they are guarenteed of the media rights to the teams in the conference for the duration of their contract, without concerns to what happens with realignment.

If Texas decides they want to leave, there would be a mass exodus and the conference would collapse. At that point the GOR would mean jack****.

 

[HOFCeluck]

If Texas decides they want to leave, there would be a mass exodus and the conference would collapse. At that point the GOR would mean jack****.

This.

We were literally one day away from witnessing the collapse of the B12 two years ago. If Texas wants to leave, and the Pac 12 decides to stomach Ok St et al, WVU is screwed.

 

[RASWVU]

This.

We were literally one day away from witnessing the collapse of the B12 two years ago. If Texas wants to leave, and the Pac 12 decides to stomach Ok St et al, WVU is screwed.

That was the whole reason that the GOR was put in place. Who can afford to walk away from their media rights for 6 years?

Let's say Texas does decide to bolt. Does the Pac 12 welcome them with open arms, knowing that they cannot include the rights to Texas home games in their TV package for 6 years? Do they include Texas in their conference revenue sharing, when they are not bringing in any TV revenue for that period of time? Would Texas agree to play in the Pac 12 for 6 years without getting any Pac 12 money?

What about those left behind in the Big12? They would suddenly be spltting a $200 million/year pie 9 ways instead of 10. For each additional member that left, the pieces of that pie would keep getting bigger and bigger. Essentially, the remaining members would have to have 2/3's majority vote to disband the conference and abandon that $200 million a year, for the GOR to become meaningless. 4 current B12 members could prevent disolution of the conference, and so long as the conference exists there is that $200 million per year war chest to use in attracting new members.

Sure, that could all happen, but why in the world would Texas, or any other b12 member sign on to the GOR if they were thinking about leaving? Why wouldn't they just refuse to sign it, like Missouri and A&M did, and negotiate a buyout instead?

 

[HtownOrange]

That was the whole reason that the GOR was put in place. Who can afford to walk away from their media rights for 6 years?

Let's say Texas does decide to bolt. Does the Pac 12 welcome them with open arms, knowing that they cannot include the rights to Texas home games in their TV package for 6 years? Do they include Texas in their conference revenue sharing, when they are not bringing in any TV revenue for that period of time? Would Texas agree to play in the Pac 12 for 6 years without getting any Pac 12 money?

What about those left behind in the Big12? They would suddenly be spltting a $200 million/year pie 9 ways instead of 10. For each additional member that left, the pieces of that pie would keep getting bigger and bigger. Essentially, the remaining members would have to have 2/3's majority vote to disband the conference and abandon that $200 million a year, for the GOR to become meaningless. 4 current B12 members could prevent disolution of the conference, and so long as the conference exists there is that $200 million per year war chest to use in attracting new members.

Sure, that could all happen, but why in the world would Texas, or any other b12 member sign on to the GOR if they were thinking about leaving? Why wouldn't they just refuse to sign it, like Missouri and A&M did, and negotiate a buyout instead?

The GOR is merely a contract and a breach can be negotiated. The remaining schools can try as they might, the contract is divisible annually and efficient breach be attained. Next, the remaining schools must mitigate the losses, failure to do so would allow a breaching school the argument that they could have been replaced. Then, you negotiate a settlement, usually forced by a few lawsuits. Naturally a breaching scholl will file a lawsuit claimint that the conference has breached (whether true or only perceived, ex: If Texas can show they would get $30MM in the Pac 12 or B1G, they can sue the Big 12 for holding them back).

None of the above is material in a mass exodus. If Texas leaves, OU will go with them. If they go to the Pac 12, then two others go along for the ride. Six schools are left, no conference and no TV deal. If Texas goes indy, OU and maybe +1 go to the SEC, the Pac 12 gets up to four and the B1G may do some poaching, again, no conference left.

At best, the GOR is a starting point for negotiations. Texas can buy out the GOR in full if they wished to do so, so the GOR means nothing to them. Another point is that the GOR decreases in value over time. To Texas, the GOR is a means of keeping everyone around until they decide to do something (ex. if the LHN works, they stay, if it fails, they look to the Pac 12).

Your point about the Pac 12 not wanting Texas due to the GOR is immaterial. The Pac 12 would not receive less due to the GOR, Texas would receive less of what they would get from the Pac 12 (actually, they would get the full share and then have to pay out the GOR share, or more likely a negotiated amount).

As to why the remaining schools signed the GOR, they had to, except OU, who has a soft landing in the SEC if they want it. However, OU really prefers to be aligned with Texas, though they will go their separate way if forced.

Think about how WVU was "Locked" into 27 months notice to the Big East. Didn't happen, did it? If Texas wants out, smile and wave goodbye.

 

[RASWVU]

Getting out of the BE and the current B12 are completely different. WVU had to breach the contract to leave. It was well accepted that the BE was not going to be able to legally compel WVU to participate in the conference for 27 months against their will. Therefore, it was up to the courts, or as it turned out, a negotiation, to determine the amount of damages.

Texas does not need to breach their B12 contract to leave. They can just wave goodbye right now and walk out the door. No breach, no buyout, no forced participation, against their will. They just cannot take their media rights with them. They no longer own them, at least for the next 6 years. They were signed over to the B12 and are property of the conference. They were given over voluntarily in return for membership in the B12 for the next 6 years. If Texas would decide to voluntarily forgo their membership rights in the B12, they are free to do so at any time. They just cannot take conference property with them. They probably could purchase that property for a negotiated price, or the B12 could just decide to hang on to it.

I have no doubt, that if Texas decided to leave, they could start a legal process to try and regain posession of their media rights, but since that ownership currently belongs to the B12, while that lengthy process was going on without any certainty as to the outcome, any new league would have to take Texas on a leap of faith that they would prevail in the legal battle and eventually regain ownership.

Since the B12 has resold those media rights to ESPN and ESPN is obligated to send their checks to the B12, I cannot fathom that they would suddenly divert those payments to the PAC 12 without a court finding ordering them to do so. They could find themselves with some serious legal problems.

In short, when WVU left the BE they told the conference in no uncertain terms that they would not be participating in any conference games or activities after July 1 2012. There was no way the conference could legally compel WVU athletic teams to perform against their will. Then it just became a matter of determining damages.

On the contrary, Texas could notify the B12 that they will not compete in any conference activities after tomorrow. The B12 would not make any move to compel them to do so. They would not consider them in breach of their contract. They would just wish them well, send them on their way and continue to receive the media rights checks for all of Texas' Tier 1 and Tier 2 broadcasts for the next 6 years.

 

[Chip]

An oldie from a couple years ago from Jake C.

Eventually, Crouthamel said he saw the Big Ten, the Atlantic Coast Conference, the Southeastern Conference and the Pacific-10 forming four 16-team superconferences and leaving the umbrella of the N.C.A.A. (Just imagine the fight between the SEC and the Pac-10 for Texas.) He said that those leagues would form their own basketball tournament to rival the N.C.A.A. tournament.
“If you look at the history of what’s been going on for the last decade, I think it’s leading in that direction,” he said.

I wouldn't really call it a plan. I would call it a trend. If it were a plan, this all would have happened quicker and we'd probably be done by now. If it were a plan, the Big 12 wouldn't lose 4 teams, and then suddenly have everyone thinking they were in the driver's seat to be one of the last 4 standing.

The trend was that the rich would continue to want to get richer, and that they wouldn't want to share it with anyone. And from there, people not directly involved with the process, but highly interested in its results, started pulling out calculators and tried to figure out which #s of leagues and teams made the most sense because it didn't have decimal places.

If we ever get to 4 X 16, you'll never convince me it was part of a master plan. More than it was something that was talked about so much by the semi-media, that the Presidents and ADs figured that was the acceptable round #'s they'd be stuck sharing their gold with.

 

[HtownOrange]

Getting out of the BE and the current B12 are completely different. WVU had to breach the contract to leave. It was well accepted that the BE was not going to be able to legally compel WVU to participate in the conference for 27 months against their will. Therefore, it was up to the courts, or as it turned out, a negotiation, to determine the amount of damages.

Completely different? A breach is a breach. The GOR is a contract, nothing more. A contract is only as good as theparties involved wish it to be.

Texas does not need to breach their B12 contract to leave. They can just wave goodbye right now and walk out the door. No breach, no buyout, no forced participation, against their will. They just cannot take their media rights with them. They no longer own them, at least for the next 6 years. They were signed over to the B12 and are property of the conference. They were given over voluntarily in return for membership in the B12 for the next 6 years. If Texas would decide to voluntarily forgo their membership rights in the B12, they are free to do so at any time. They just cannot take conference property with them. They probably could purchase that property for a negotiated price, or the B12 could just decide to hang on to it.

News flash: If Texas and/or any other school leaves, that, by definition, is a breach. The damages would be negotiated. WVU negotiated with the Big East for damages, $20MM. Any breaching school has many legal arguments, the GOR is merely a begining point.

I have no doubt, that if Texas decided to leave, they could start a legal process to try and regain posession of their media rights, but since that ownership currently belongs to the B12, while that lengthy process was going on without any certainty as to the outcome, any new league would have to take Texas on a leap of faith that they would prevail in the legal battle and eventually regain ownership.

Keep fooling yourself, the maximum damages are set by the GOR at the payout level. The rights would go with Texas, the new conference would get the full benefit of Texas and the Big 12 would get whatever payment for damages from Texas. A long drawn out legal battle would benefit no one, least of all the remaining schools.

Since the B12 has resold those media rights to ESPN and ESPN is obligated to send their checks to the B12, I cannot fathom that they would suddenly divert those payments to the PAC 12 without a court finding ordering them to do so. They could find themselves with some serious legal problems.

This simply adds additional parties; however, there are probably clauses built into the agreement to address this. Additionally, these same parties may already be involved involved with the new conference. Similar to the Big East/ACC and Big East/Big 12 situations.

In short, when WVU left the BE they told the conference in no uncertain terms that they would not be participating in any conference games or activities after July 1 2012. There was no way the conference could legally compel WVU athletic teams to perform against their will. Then it just became a matter of determining damages.

And you think Texas CANNOT do the same? Any Big 12 school can do the same. A contract is a starting point for determining damages when it comes to a breach.

On the contrary, Texas could notify the B12 that they will not compete in any conference activities after tomorrow. The B12 would not make any move to compel them to do so. They would not consider them in breach of their contract. They would just wish them well, send them on their way and continue to receive the media rights checks for all of Texas' Tier 1 and Tier 2 broadcasts for the next 6 years.

You are free to believe that if Texas leaves that is not a breach; however, that is a breach, look it up. I believe you are correct that the Big 12 would not attempt to compel Texas to stay; however, the damages would be negotiated. Specific performance (like the Big East attempting to force WVU stay 27 months) is only enforced when there is no means of measuring damages, but the GOR clearly establishes a means of measuring damages. Don't forget, any breaching school will have arguments to counter the damages claims.

Look, I'm happy WVU got their wish and are in the conference they believe to be the best for them. Congratulations! I do believe that the Big 12 probably is better for WVU than remaining in the Big East, though, had WVU stayed, they would likely have a much easier run at the playoffs. It does not mean that the Big 12 is for every other school, nor does it mean that the Big 12 is not without its risks. I've held all along that if the LHN works out, Texas most likely stays. I wish WVU the best, I have no animosity against WVU.

Texas has the upper hand with the GOR, they can afford to get out whenever they want. The remaining schools do not have that luxury, at least early on in the GOR period. The fact remains that the GOR is nothing more than a fancy name for a contract.

For the record, I'd really like it if WVU could beat Texas annually, but if they beat TTech annually, that will enough for me. UT is arrogant but backs it up. TTech is arrogant but stinks!

 

[SU2NASA]

This.

We were literally one day away from witnessing the collapse of the B12 two years ago. If Texas wants to leave, and the Pac 12 decides to stomach Ok St et al, WVU is screwed.

And then the Big 12 remnants merge with the Big East...

UConn, Rutgers, Temple, UCF, USF, Boise, SDSU, Navy, Memphis, Louisville, Cincinnati, SMU, Houston, Kansas, Kansas State, Baylor, Iowa State, TCU, WVU

Now THAT's a football conference. Just think about basketball!

UConn, Rutgers, Temple, UCF, USF, Boise, SDSU, Navy, Memphis, Louisville, Cincinnati, SMU, Houston, Kansas, Kansas State, Baylor, Iowa State, TCU, WVU, St. John's, DePaul, Marquette, Villanova, Georgetown, Providence, Notre Dame, Seton Hall

 

[arbitragegls]

Whoa...please! Our Big 12 friend indicates: "Each individual member does retain their own Tier 3 rights, so that money is unequal" and we know that Texas Tier 3 maybe as much as $15 million...this is not included in the GOR...as I understand it is only tier 1 and tier 2. What would happen if the PAC 12 for example took Texas in...said no TV revenue share for you for next X years but you do get to keep your Tier 3...now I do not believe that the GOR can take dollars from a USC-TX game if TX does not receive revenue from it...and the network deal can still provide additional dollars to the PAC12. Wonder how PAC 12 could funnel some dollars to TX...just saying. A good lawyer is not one who follows the rules; it is one who knows the rules and finds ways around it...JUST SAYING.

 

[TexanMark]

My understanding is that it may have been unequal in the past, but now there is equal sharing of Tier 1 and Tier 2 revenue, (that is the $20 million per year per team number that you see thrown around). Each individual member does retain their own Tier 3 rights, so that money is unequal, as it is up to each member to exploit those revenues to their own best advantage (this is where the Longhorn Network comes in). The other caveat is that WVU and TCU receive -partial shares the first 3 years, before becoming equal members.

So how would you feel if FSU and more importantly Clemson (Who IMHO is a lesser program than WVU) would be offered Full Rights right away and aid in helping their bailout from the ACC?

 

[TexanMark]

That was the whole reason that the GOR was put in place. Who can afford to walk away from their media rights for 6 years?

Let's say Texas does decide to bolt. Does the Pac 12 welcome them with open arms, knowing that they cannot include the rights to Texas home games in their TV package for 6 years? Do they include Texas in their conference revenue sharing, when they are not bringing in any TV revenue for that period of time? Would Texas agree to play in the Pac 12 for 6 years without getting any Pac 12 money?

What about those left behind in the Big12? They would suddenly be spltting a $200 million/year pie 9 ways instead of 10. For each additional member that left, the pieces of that pie would keep getting bigger and bigger. Essentially, the remaining members would have to have 2/3's majority vote to disband the conference and abandon that $200 million a year, for the GOR to become meaningless. 4 current B12 members could prevent disolution of the conference, and so long as the conference exists there is that $200 million per year war chest to use in attracting new members.

Sure, that could all happen, but why in the world would Texas, or any other b12 member sign on to the GOR if they were thinking about leaving? Why wouldn't they just refuse to sign it, like Missouri and A&M did, and negotiate a buyout instead?

Ok lets say Texas leaves to the Pac16...now technically Texas is earning that money for the B12...but could ESPN/FOX etc...show Texas as a home team in the B12 slot?