Big Game Melo

[Melancer46]

Umm, how is it a reach when it's exactly what happened? I mean, since you went back and rewound to watch Melo's "tantrums", I'd think you'd at least notice when he made nice passes too, especially when Hibbert being in foul trouble was THE story of the game.

But they weren't "assists" though, so they don't count I guess.

The ball goes in the basket at the hands of Melo more than any other player in the NBA. That's all that needs to be said.

I agree that Melo making those passes is good even if they don't count as assists. But the problem is that he makes those passes far less than just about anyone in the league at the moment.

But I do agree that evaluating someone's passing is more about assist worthy passes, not actual assists. That's why I said Dirk's passing was a huge reason the Mavs won their title. He didnt let the ball stick in his hands the way Melo does.

 

[OrangeDW]

I agree that Melo making those passes is good even if they don't count as assists. But the problem is that he makes those passes far less than just about anyone in the league at the moment.

But I do agree that evaluating someone's passing is more about assist worthy passes, not actual assists. That's why I said Dirk's passing was a huge reason the Mavs won their title. He didnt let the ball stick in his hands the way Melo does.

Melo makes his teammates better. He draws so much attention from defenses that his teammates often get wide open shots. And his teammates can also be more selective because they know Melo can always get a decent shot off at any time, so when they throw him the ball with 5 on the shot clock, he still makes it work sometimes. This is why almost every player that has played significant minutes on Anthony's teams have posted much higher True Shooting %'s when they played with Melo. It doesn't show up in his "assists per game", but he makes his teammates better and more efficient.

 

[OrangeDW]

You are being way too argumentative. Im not trying to bash Melo.

I hope he wins the series and the champ.

You can count those 2 or 3 plays as assists.. But everyone stats are calculated the same way - Melo has averaged extreme low assists numbers all year and basically his whole career.

IMO, he would be better off involving his team more and becoming more of an all around player.

I am still going to root for him tonight. If that means you proved me wrong, so be it.

So because I don't agree with everything you said and pointed out something that you apparently didnt notice, I'm being argumentative? It's just a discussion board. I saw a point that I thought needed to be made, and made it. You called it a reach, and I explained why it's not.

I also don't agree with "extreme low assist numbers". His career average is 3.1. There were 8 SF's this year who averaged more. There were 11 SF's who averaged more than Melo's career low 2.6 this year. That puts his assist numbers as average or mediocre by SF standards, not extreme low.

 

[Knicks411]

I also don't agree with "extreme low assist numbers". His career average is 3.1. There were 8 SF's this year who averaged more. There were 11 SF's who averaged more than Melo's career low 2.6 this year. That puts his assist numbers as average or mediocre by SF standards, not extreme low.

I think we should adjust for usage and minutes in some way though, no?

Using ESPN.com, Melo's 2.6 APG would've ranked him 12th among SF. His Assists per 48 minutes would've ranked him 15th among SF, with guys like Michael Beasley and Jae Crowder.

His assists were way down this year. This is after a career high assist% last year. Don't know if it's just a function of the way they are using him or what. I didn't say extreme low; that's probably not a good way to describe them, since someone who plays so many minutes and has the ball in his hands so much is going to get some assists.

Melo, like other high volume shooters, is able to help his teammates %'s by virtue of the fact that he commands so much attention.

Edit: Then again, if you use assist% on ESPN (which is basically the % of a player's possessions that end in an assist), among 70 qualifying SF, Melo ranked 64th, which is probably extremely low. He does deserve credit for having an extremely low TO%, which considering his usage, is pretty amazing.

 

[CusefanATL]

So because I don't agree with everything you said and pointed out something that you apparently didnt notice, I'm being argumentative? It's just a discussion board. I saw a point that I thought needed to be made, and made it. You called it a reach, and I explained why it's not.

I also don't agree with "extreme low assist numbers". His career average is 3.1. There were 8 SF's this year who averaged more. There were 11 SF's who averaged more than Melo's career low 2.6 this year. That puts his assist numbers as average or mediocre by SF standards, not extreme low.

I think it's more your tone. Your quotation marks, umms, i mean's, and so's make it seem like you are being argumentative and/or passive aggressive.

Sorry if I took it the wrong way.

 

[Melancer46]

Melo makes his teammates better. He draws so much attention from defenses that his teammates often get wide open shots. And his teammates can also be more selective because they know Melo can always get a decent shot off at any time, so when they throw him the ball with 5 on the shot clock, he still makes it work sometimes. This is why almost every player that has played significant minutes on Anthony's teams have posted much higher True Shooting %'s when they played with Melo. It doesn't show up in his "assists per game", but he makes his teammates better and more efficient.

Just looking at the past 3 or 4 years, it doesn't really look like there's any examples of that. Guys like Billups, Felton, and Kidd all posted higher eFG with other teams than they did with Melo, and everyone else is basically guys like Jeremy Lin or Shumpert that have never really played anywhere else. And the stat that you're looking for in this regard is probably eFG, because TS% factors in FT% which really isn't impacted by Melo at all, whereas eFG is just 2 pointers and 3 pointers.

 

[OrangeDW]

I think it's more your tone. Your quotation marks, umms, i mean's, and so's make it seem like you are being argumentative and/or passive aggressive.

Sorry if I took it the wrong way.

Umm, my "tone"? I used quotes? I mean...so?

Just kidding.

 

[Knicks411]

There was a Nate Silver piece a few years ago, my guess is that is the reference point

 

[OrangeDW]

Just looking at the past 3 or 4 years, it doesn't really look like there's any examples of that. Guys like Billups, Felton, and Kidd all posted higher eFG with other teams than they did with Melo, and everyone else is basically guys like Jeremy Lin or Shumpert that have never really played anywhere else. And the stat that you're looking for in this regard is probably eFG, because TS% factors in FT% which really isn't impacted by Melo at all, whereas eFG is just 2 pointers and 3 pointers.

Well, I don't remember who all the examples were, but Iverson was a big one. His TS was much higher with Melo. There were quite a few players who this was true for, I remember this from a few years back. It makes sense for it to be true for any elite scorer who draws a lot of attention and can get and make their own shot at any time.

I don't think Kidd can be held against Melo at this point, he's 126 years old.

 

[NineOneSeven]

If anything, the fact that the Knicks made the most three in NBA history as a team, made Carmelo better, not the other way around.

 

[OrangeDW]

If anything, the fact that the Knicks made the most three in NBA history as a team, made Carmelo better, not the other way around.

How?

 

[Melancer46]

Well, I don't remember who all the examples were, but Iverson was a big one. His TS was much higher with Melo. There were quite a few players who this was true for, I remember this from a few years back. It makes sense for it to be true for any elite scorer who draws a lot of attention and can get and make their own shot at any time.

I don't think Kidd can be held against Melo at this point, he's 126 years old.

Yeah, the only two I really found were Iverson and Linas Kleiza.

And for what it's worth, Kidd's highest eFG season was like 2 years ago with the Mavs I believe.

 

[OrangeDW]

Yeah, the only two I really found were Iverson and Linas Kleiza.

And for what it's worth, Kidd's highest eFG season was like 2 years ago with the Mavs I believe.

As a shooter he came a long way from Ason Kidd, in his first Mavs run.

Kidd was a much better player a few years ago than now. He still had his good moments this season, but when you're that old, you can lose it in a hurry.

 

[Melancer46]

How?

This is definitely one of those things where it helps all parties. I'm sure shooters had more open looks in part because of the attention that Melo receives, though the larger part of the equation is definitely the simple fact that the Knicks just moved the ball extremely well as a team early in the year.

At the same time, all of the guys surrounding Melo that shot the ball so well this year undoubtedly helped create more space for him to attack.

It definitely goes both ways. And don't get me wrong, I've maintained this whole time that the way that Melo played during most of the regular season was easily the best of his career. I'm more focused on the playoffs, where he suddenly became the old Melo again, hanging onto the ball for 10-15 seconds at a time and ignoring teammates while trying to win games by himself.

The way that Melo played during the regular season was a big breakthrough for him.

 

[OrangeDW]

Yeah, the only two I really found were Iverson and Linas Kleiza.

And for what it's worth, Kidd's highest eFG season was like 2 years ago with the Mavs I believe.

Found what I was thinking of:

"In fact, this is true of almost every Nugget who has played a sufficient number of minutes with Anthony. I identified 16 players who have accumulated least 2,000 minutes with the Nuggets in years when Anthony was on the team, and have also played at least 2,000 minutes in the N.B.A. without Anthony (either because they were playing for a different team or because they were on the Nuggets before Anthony’s rookie season). All but 2 of the players – Marcus Camby and Voshon Lenard – posted a higher TS% playing with Anthony than without him, and on average, he improved his teammates’ TS% by 3.8 points (to 55.0 percent from 51.2 percent)."

 

[OrangeDW]

This is definitely one of those things where it helps all parties. I'm sure shooters had more open looks in part because of the attention that Melo receives, though the larger part of the equation is definitely the simple fact that the Knicks just moved the ball extremely well as a team early in the year.

At the same time, all of the guys surrounding Melo that shot the ball so well this year undoubtedly helped create more space for him to attack.

It definitely goes both ways. And don't get me wrong, I've maintained this whole time that the way that Melo played during most of the regular season was easily the best of his career. I'm more focused on the playoffs, where he suddenly became the old Melo again, hanging onto the ball for 10-15 seconds at a time and ignoring teammates while trying to win games by himself.

The way that Melo played during the regular season was a big breakthrough for him.

But...he had a career low in assists and took a career high FG attempts per game?

Carmelo has scored more PPG before, gotten more APG, shot a better %, etc. I don't buy this idea that he had some breakthrough this year, or that he benefitted from his supporting cast(I have no other words for that one). He's generally been a top 10 player since his 3rd-4th season in the league, so he had a very good year but this is nothing new.

 

[Melancer46]

Found what I was thinking of:

"In fact, this is true of almost every Nugget who has played a sufficient number of minutes with Anthony. I identified 16 players who have accumulated least 2,000 minutes with the Nuggets in years when Anthony was on the team, and have also played at least 2,000 minutes in the N.B.A. without Anthony (either because they were playing for a different team or because they were on the Nuggets before Anthony’s rookie season). All but 2 of the players – Marcus Camby and Voshon Lenard – posted a higher TS% playing with Anthony than without him, and on average, he improved his teammates’ TS% by 3.8 points (to 55.0 percent from 51.2 percent)."

That's misleading though. The majority of those guys were guys that struggled early in their career, then developed into solid shooters for a year or two, and then joined Melo, so it looked like they were better with Melo than without, when in reality, they just caught on with him at the right time in their careers. Voshon Leonard, Billups, Kidd, Lin, Ruben Patterson, Andre Miller, Raymond Felton, and Earl Boykins all posted higher eFG with other teams than they did with Melo, and I'm pretty sure they all fall into that category of 2000 minutes with and without (maybe not Lin). The difference is that their numbers earlier in their career drag those "numbers without Melo" down.

 

[Knicks411]

I remember there being a critique done on the Silver piece on Melo. I found it. Just to give time to both sides, here it is

http://wagesofwins.com/2011/01/17/commenting-on-nate-silver’s-melo-effect/

 

[Melancer46]

But...he had a career low in assists and took a career high FG attempts per game?

Carmelo has scored more PPG before, gotten more APG, shot a better %, etc. I don't buy this idea that he had some breakthrough this year, or that he benefitted from his supporting cast(I have no other words for that one). He's generally been a top 10 player since his 3rd-4th season in the league, so he had a very good year but this is nothing new.

Maybe in Syracuse circles he was, but the majority of NBA analysts never really mentioned Melo as a top 10 or possible MVP until this year. And again, you can't just look at the stats, but how they're accumulated. He took better shots this year because they moved the ball much better as a team, Melo included. But that's gone to hell in the playoffs.

 

[Knicks411]

I wouldn't really say there was a huge breakthrough for Melo this year. I think the biggest change was he got more minutes at the 4, which opened up the court for him because there were more guys spacing the court

 

[NineOneSeven]

How?

Well as melancer said it works both ways:

A) shooters got open looks because melo often needs to be doubled
B) due to the Knicks having shooters on the floor, and their ability to knock them down, the defense can't collapse on melo as much as they'd like since they spread the floor with said shooters

Both occurred, but when I hear "melo makes his teammates better", I don't see it as much as with other players in the NBA.

Disclaimer: at no point am I bashing melo.

 

[OrangeDW]

Maybe in Syracuse circles he was, but the majority of NBA analysts never really mentioned Melo as a top 10 or possible MVP until this year.

That's because they're dumb. And they like good story lines to latch onto to push for MVP, when they can find them. That's why Malone, Iverson, and Nash won.

The Melo finally "getting it" and thus receiving some MVP attention was their story to pump this year, even though he played like he did for most of his career, other than taking and making more 3s.

He's been to the conference finals before, but yet he didnt "get it" until this year?

 

[OrangeDW]

Well as melancer said it works both ways:

A) shooters got open looks because melo often needs to be doubled
B) due to the Knicks having shooters on the floor, and their ability to knock them down, the defense can't collapse on melo as much as they'd like since they spread the floor with said shooters

Both occurred, but when I hear "melo makes his teammates better", I don't see it as much as with other players in the NBA.

Disclaimer: at no point am I bashing melo.

So how did that help Melo? What did it help him do that he hasn't done just as well before?

I think it goes more the other way.

His supporting cast is not very good, especially when compared to other playoff teams and a lot of those guys benefitted from the open looks they got due to the attention Melo draws.

 

[Knicks411]

So how did that help Melo? What did it help him do that he hasn't done just as well before?

Well he won the scoring title this year, which he hadn't done before.

He had the highest usage rate of his career and one of the better true shooting% of his career.

The arrow pretty clearly goes both ways and just as clearly it's impossible to accurately apply the credit. Melo gets credit for being able to handle playing at the 4, which allows the Knicks to put more shooters on the court, which spreads the floor and gives Melo more room to operate.

 

[NineOneSeven]

So how did that help Melo? What did it help him do that he hasn't done just as well before?

I think it goes more the other way.

His supporting cast is not very good, especially when compared to other playoff teams and a lot of those guys benefitted from the open looks they got due to the attention Melo draws.

I already answered this.

And as I've said, it goes both ways. You think it leans one way, I think it leans the other. That's the power of free thought in America.