Block / Charge

[Brooky03]

This is one of those calls that the game is just too fast for. Refs are making an educated guess most of the time, kind of like pass interference in football. Some calls are obvious, a lot of calls are not.

Refs, in general, should swallow their whistles more often, imo. When the contact is 60% the fault of one player and 40% the fault of the other player, just play on. A foul doesn't have to be called just because there was significant contact.

Call hand checking and grabbing early in each game to stop Pitt or Louisville style defense. Once the players get used to that stuff being called, they'll fall in line. Then, just let them play.

 

[xc84]

While I would be fine if the defensive player was called e.g. for a technical foul for faking being hit in the face (could be done with replay) and I get why this is an interesting topic, it really does not happen very often. Sure, players drawing charges sometimes exaggerate the impact to draw attention to it... but as long as the Defensive player has established his position and there is contact, it's an Offensive foul ...regardless of how the defensive player tries to embellish it.

 

[Cusefan0307]

While I would be fine if the defensive player was called e.g. for a technical foul for faking being hit in the face (could be done with replay) and I get why this is an interesting topic, it really does not happen very often. Sure, players drawing charges sometimes exaggerate the impact to draw attention to it... but as long as the Defensive player has established his position and there is contact, it's an Offensive foul ...regardless of how the defensive player tries to embellish it.

Flopping should be a technical. So should falling before you are hit. I'd wager 60% of chargers are BS.

 

[xc84]

Flopping should be a technical. So should falling before you are hit. I'd wager 60% of chargers are BS.

Depends on what you mean by "flopping". Players are taught how to fall so they don't get hurt. Just standing there and taking the full impact is just stupid. If a defensive player has position and draws the contact, it's an offensive foul...whether or not the player falls or exaggerates the fall. Sometimes you have to make it very obvious to the ref or they won't correctly call the charge. I consider "flopping" to be when there is little or no contact and defensive player fakes the contact.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I'd just like to see what it would do for the game if it was officiated such that secondary defenders can't even set up for a charge. If you're the next line of defense after the first has been beat, you have to make a play on the ball. Defense is more than just being in somebody's way.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Depends on what you mean by "flopping". Players are taught how to fall so they don't get hurt. Just standing there and taking the full impact is just stupid. If a defensive player has position and draws the contact, it's an offensive foul...whether or not the player falls or exaggerates the fall. Sometimes you have to make it very obvious to the ref or they won't correctly call the charge. I consider "flopping" to be when there is little or no contact and defensive player fakes the contact.

I think its exactly the opposite. You don't have to make it that obvious cause officials pitch a tent whenever they call it.

 

[Cowtown]

Cowtown was probably the one yes I guess!

That's interesting, as I had not even seen this thread before this morning. It makes interesting reading. Especially as the Rex Chapman tweet has absolutely nothing to do with the thread's title.

 

[Cusefan0307]

That's interesting, as I had not even seen this thread before this morning. It makes interesting reading. Especially as the Rex Chapman tweet has absolutely nothing to do with the thread's title.

Old thread.

 

[RF2044]

Depends on what you mean by "flopping". Players are taught how to fall so they don't get hurt. Just standing there and taking the full impact is just stupid. If a defensive player has position and draws the contact, it's an offensive foul...whether or not the player falls or exaggerates the fall. Sometimes you have to make it very obvious to the ref or they won't correctly call the charge. I consider "flopping" to be when there is little or no contact and defensive player fakes the contact.

Agree in principal.

But I'll push back on one point -- not all contact equates to a foul. And not all defenders who draw contact should earn an offensive foul -- ESPECIALLY when the offensive player makes a move to the basket and avoids the majority of what the contact could be.

 

[xc84]

Agree in principal.

But I'll push back on one point -- not all contact equates to a foul. And not all defenders who draw contact should earn an offensive foul -- ESPECIALLY when the offensive player makes a move to the basket and avoids the majority of what the contact could be.

Right, that is why I said is little or no contact ... so we agree. I certainly don't think all contact = foul.

 

[Cowtown]

Old thread.

I wish the fans here would get into officiating with the same level of enthusiasm as they have in talking about officiating.

 

[xc84]

I think its exactly the opposite. You don't have to make it that obvious cause officials pitch a tent whenever they call it.

We can disagree. I think sometimes you have to help the ref a bit see what happened.

 

[Cowtown]

xc84 touched on an important part of the debate around fouls. Which is that contact alone does not constitute a foul, advantage/disadvantage constitutes a foul. That's subjective, and means there will always be disagreement around certain calls.

Here's another important factor in the debate: greater than 95% of players and coaches have never read through a rule book, let alone understood how rules are interpreted and applied. Also consider this: that includes the AD's who attend the meetings and get to choose which officials work in their conferences.

edit: Here's one more thing. About the same percentage don't realize the NBA and NCAA work with different rule books, and also with different interpretations and applications.

 

[Cusefan0307]

xc84 touched on an important part of the debate around fouls. Which is that contact alone does not constitute a foul, advantage/disadvantage constitutes a foul. That's subjective, and means there will always be disagreement around certain calls.

Here's another important factor in the debate: greater than 95% of players and coaches have never read through a rule book, let alone understood how rules are interpreted and applied. Also consider this: that includes the AD's who attend the meetings and get to choose which officials work in their conferences.

edit: Here's one more thing. About the same percentage don't realize the NBA and NCAA work with different rule books, and also with different interpretations and applications.

I'm well aware of what the charge rule is. It was changed in 2013 and officials are still calling it based on the old rule. Defenders must be in legal guarding position before the player goes up to shoot or pass at the basket. Officials are still calling it based on the previous rule which allowed defenders to slide in after the offensive player already went in the air.

It's no different than the hand check/freedom of movement rule which was changed recently and officials are still allowing that as well. I guess the moral of the story is that it is hard to teach an old dog new tricks.

 

[Cowtown]

I guess the moral of the story is that it is hard to teach an old dog new tricks.

That's a two-way street.

edit: That said, consider this. When you tweak a rule, many of the pre-existing concepts are still the same. I'll venture that's why it often looks the same as before - because a lot of it is the same as before.

As to "rule changes," consider this. Learning to be an official takes time, and to become a good official takes a long time. Rule tweaks and even major modifications occur every time the rule book is re-written, which unfortunately is almost every year. A subtle rule change doesn't suddenly render a good official incompetent.

And as far as hand checking goes, I loathe hand checking. You can thank the NBA for that particularly insidious practice. The NBA has farked up real basketbball more ways than enough. Still, it comes down to advantage/disadvantage. Do you want a whistle every time a defender's hand contacts an offensive player? Then expand the rosters to 25 and get ready for 4 hour games.

 

[xc84]

I'm well aware of what the charge rule is. It was changed in 2013 and officials are still calling it based on the old rule. Defenders must be in legal guarding position before the player goes up to shoot or pass at the basket. Officials are still calling it based on the previous rule which allowed defenders to slide in after the offensive player already went in the air.

I have never known that to be the rule in my lifegime. Once the player leaves his feet, the defensive player cannot (and never could in my lifetime) slide in.

 

[Cowtown]

I have never known that to be the rule in my lifegime. Once the player leaves his feet, the defensive player cannot (and never could in my lifetime) slide in.

Quite correct. I learned it this way: "If you didn't have position before the shooter leaves the floor, you can't have it when he comes down." That's the same now as it was then. You know, when we were kids.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Quite correct. I learned it this way: "If you didn't have position before the shooter leaves the floor, you can't have it when he comes down." That's the same now as it was then. You know, when we were kids.

Then why did they change the rule to specifically put this in on 2013.

 

[xc84]

Quite correct. I learned it this way: "If you didn't have position before the shooter leaves the floor, you can't have it when he comes down." That's the same now as it was then. You know, when we were kids.

Right, when you, me and Mikan were playing

 

[xc84]

Then why did they change the rule to specifically put this in on 2013.

They didn't

 

[Cusefan0307]

They didn't

NCAA rules committee approves changes to block/charge

They did. I don't get why you and Cowtown are so obtuse over this. It was changed somewhat as a result of the terrible charge calls on Brandon Triche in back to back NCAA tournaments.

EDIT: I got the verbiage wrong. you were right as it was stated, but it still was never interpreted that way.

 

[xc84]

NCAA rules committee approves changes to block/charge

They did. I don't get why you and Cowtown are so obtuse over this. It was changed somewhat as a result of the terrible charge calls on Brandon Triche in back to back NCAA tournaments.

Didn't
"Moving forward, the NCAA says "a defensive player is not permitted to move into the path of an offensive player once he has started his upward motion with the ball to attempt a field goal or pass." If the defensive player is not in legal guarding position by this time, it should be called a blocking foul.
The old rule stated that the defender had to be in legal guarding position by the time the offensive player lifted off the floor."

So it's has always been the rule that once an offensive player leaves his feet, D cannot move.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Didn't
"Moving forward, the NCAA says "a defensive player is not permitted to move into the path of an offensive player once he has started his upward motion with the ball to attempt a field goal or pass." If the defensive player is not in legal guarding position by this time, it should be called a blocking foul.
The old rule stated that the defender had to be in legal guarding position by the time the offensive player lifted off the floor."

So it's has always been the rule that once an offensive player leaves his feet, D cannot move.

Correct, but they never call it that way.

 

[xc84]

Correct, but they never call it that way.

You had said"
Officials are still calling it based on the previous rule which allowed defenders to slide in after the offensive player already went in the air."

So you were wrong. That was not the previous rule. Whether they got the call right is another thing... but usually that was an easy call. Guy goes up in the air, defender slides in. Defensive foul.

 

[Cusefan0307]

You had said"
Officials are still calling it based on the previous rule which allowed defenders to slide in after the offensive player already went in the air."

So you were wrong. That was not the previous rule. Whether they got the call right is another thing... but usually that was an easy call. Guy goes up in the air, defender slides in. Defensive foul.

I posted that above in an edited post. There's a reason they changed the rule. The officials never got it right in the first place.