Boeheim should do the right thing and step down now. | Page 3 | Syracusefan.com

Boeheim should do the right thing and step down now.

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Sorry, but I don't see it. JB hasn't been a factor on the recruiting trail for years now, and the retirement "line in the sand" seems to have been affecting Hopkins too. Perhaps he's looking over his shoulder for HC gigs? Who knows? But to me, it's clear that something's going on between Hopkins and Boeheim that's affecting our recruiting, which is the larger issue.
If what we hear from the recruiting experts on the board is correct, it must be torture for Hop on the recruiting trail. He knows this could be his team tomorrow, next year, 10 years from now..and has a dramatically different vision for players/scheme than Boeheim, yet JB sends him and the other assistants out on the trail, with no help from JB himself, to bring in "zone guys".
 
If what we hear from the recruiting experts on the board is correct, it must be torture for Hop on the recruiting trail. He knows this could be his team tomorrow, next year, 10 years from now..and has a dramatically different vision for players/scheme than Boeheim, yet JB sends him and the other assistants out on the trail, with no help from JB himself, to bring in "zone guys".

Nonsense. Hopkins is a recruiter--where's HE been on the recruiting trail? JB is close to the finish line, it's going to be Hop's team pretty soon. If I were Hop, I'd be doing everything possible and working 10 times harder than everybody else to chase recruits for 2017 and 2018. But per Francis, he isn't. JB might not be helping matters, but he isn't holding Hop back -- so what's the issue??
 
I must have miss the 2-3 times he announced a retirement date and then postponed it.

I've been told that he planned to step down twice, after 09', and again after 12'. I won't say more, but it comes from a very respected source on this board. That's all I'll say.

Hop has been more than strung along.
 
Nonsense. Hopkins is a recruiter--where's HE been on the recruiting trail? JB is close to the finish line, it's going to be Hop's team pretty soon. If I were Hop, I'd be doing everything possible and working 10 times harder than everybody else to chase recruits for 2017 and 2018. But per Francis, he isn't. JB might not be helping matters, but he isn't holding Hop back -- so what's the issue??
This is just my personal opinion but I think it's vision. Hop doesn't want JB's recruits. They have different views on personnel and scheme.

Again, my opinion and I could be way off but I'm not sure if Brissett and Sidibe are guys Hop is looking for and it sounds like there's some guys we may have had a chance at that dismissed us due to JB's zone stranglehold of the program.
 
This is just my personal opinion but I think it's vision. Hop doesn't want JB's recruits. They have different views on personnel and scheme.

Again, my opinion and I could be way off but I'm not sure if Brissett and Sidibe are guys Hop is looking for and it sounds like there's some guys we may have had a chance at that dismissed us due to JB's zone stranglehold of the program.

Get the best players you can. Period. It isn't a zero sum game where players can only plan man or only play zone, or only play one form of offense or another.

If that's what Hopkins is doing, then it is very short sighted -- because he's going to inherit a team devoid of talent. The ENTIRE staff needs to step up their effort level on the recruiting trail. All of them. People should be very, very concerned about some of the things Francis has conveyed about how hard we're getting outworked on the recruiting trail, and how our coaches aren't making enough of an effort to visit prospects.

And yes, I know that we are down an AC on the road due to NCAA restrictions, but there is no excuse for what we've seen the past couple of years. Anyone thinking that things are going to magically change once JB departs is setting themselves up for disappointment. Hopkins is culpable here, too, even if the buck doesn't stop with him [yet].
 
You can't have this conversation without looking at the unexpected one/two and done players, plus the injuries. (Ennis, Richardson, McCullough, Dajuan, Paschal, et al.)
 
I could pull up threads from other posters about us not winning a game in the ACC etc. etc.

Was called delusional when I said this team would rally and make the tournament and here we are with half the fanbase feeling snubbed.
Having a little fun Jon Snow. I wish you would just say NC contender. As winning it all is so hard even when your the best team.
We could dominant the regular season and lose in the S16.
 
Nonsense. Hopkins is a recruiter--where's HE been on the recruiting trail? JB is close to the finish line, it's going to be Hop's team pretty soon. If I were Hop, I'd be doing everything possible and working 10 times harder than everybody else to chase recruits for 2017 and 2018. But per Francis, he isn't. JB might not be helping matters, but he isn't holding Hop back -- so what's the issue??
That's really interesting... doesn't make sense to me, regardless of if JB was retiring or not. No one should be coasting, especially for Hop. If he was all in as future head coach just a year off... that's unacceptable and not what I wanted to hear. I would think a trying year like this is all the motivation Hop would need to make sure he has some quality recruits in the pipeline, unh.
 
That's really interesting... doesn't make sense to me, regardless of if JB was retiring or not. No one should be coasting, especially for Hop. If he was all in as future head coach just a year off... that's unacceptable and not what I wanted to hear. I would think a trying year like this is all the motivation Hop would need to make sure he has some quality recruits in the pipeline, unh.

But that's the point. If JB's extended his timeline in the past, what makes you think he won't drag this out next year? No way he gives up coaching without a fight.
 
But that's the point. If JB's extended his timeline in the past, what makes you think he won't drag this out next year? No way he gives up coaching without a fight.

The skuttlebutt is that JB has already kicked the tires with the new AD / Chancellor about remaining past 2018, and was told that the university was going to follow the succession plan. I don't expect him to coach beyond next year. Wouldn't be surprised if he decides to hang them up this offseason, either. He doesn't strike me as the type who would want to endure a farewell tour atmosphere.
 
JB will not hang on just for the sake of hanging on. He will take a hard look this off seasin, and may very well say it's time to hang it up.
 
I'm not going to condemn the OP for saying what he said, but my initial reaction is: be careful what you wish for.

Boeheim IS the program. We have no idea whether others will be able to continue our sustained level of success, or whether we'll drop off once he retires. Things are never certain when you are replacing a coaching icon. We've seen example after example of successors to HOF coaches struggling. In some cases, it can take 10 or more years or even longer for some of these teams to get an adequate replacement to the icon. I hope that's not what we go through.

Not a knock on Hop, either.

Part of me is ready for change and eager to see the program get some new blood and embrace some new approaches. But part of me fears that our program will face the same as what Indiana, Georgetown, and others have had to deal with after their legendary coaches went away.

Dean Smith "IS the program." Until he wasn't.
Kobe Bryant is the franchise. Until he hurt the franchise for a few years while everyone needed to revere his productive years.

The JB loyalists seem to imagine a coach has a career trajectory like a never-ending upward linear progression. Reality is, it's more like a bell curve, and we are well on the downside. No matter how fit he seems when he's screaming at our players on the sidelines, he's old and less-involved than he was 10 or 15 years ago.

Four years in the ACC and we have zero tournament wins. We are .500 against ACC teams in three straight years. All not so coincidentally occurring around the sanctions and his lame duck status. What exactly is "loyalty?" Are we supposed to be loyal to a man or to the program? The program is more important. Regardless of what he's given us over the hundred years he's been with us, there is a point at which he will be doing us long-term damage. Some people don't seem to care if that happens or don't think that IS happening, and they justify that with 12 minutes of Malachi Richardson being desperate not to write any more term papers.

I completely understand the fear that comes with change and transition. We have enjoyed remarkable consistency of having above average teams. But we are in decline that sees us with ONLY having average teams. JB will not be here to see us back into 'excellence.' We are only going to get back to being a power some number of years after he's gone. We don't know that Mike is going to be the savior but we do know it won't be JB unless He decides to stay another five to ten years, and all the recruits actually believe that. They'd be silly to believe that and I don't even believe enough kids revere JB as much as we would like to believe. It doesn't help to constantly see him red in the face and raving at a player every time one of his non-pets has a basket scored from somewhere in his general vicinity. The zone is effective some years, but you've got to question a scheme in which the coach still feels the need to yank a guy he has determined is important enough to be a starter, every time points are scored... in the last game of the season. Maybe you could expect that to be the Means of Instruction early in the year, but if all the same 'mistakes' are being made in game 30, the scheme or the treatment is flawed. And yes, we can still win a game DESPITE a flawed scheme.

We are not a premier destination at this point. JB is not going to be there for recruits. We have been noted for being a walk it up, slow tempo team for the last five years. We have the stink of sanctions. We look incompetent all too often. We get out dunked and out highlighted all too often. We are on the bubble all too often. We are not ranked at all for entire seasons all too often. A lot of us have been with the program for a long time. Me, since 85. But recruits? Young people today have an extremely limited frame of reference and perspective, as far as history is concerned. They don't know or remember that we went to a final four a few years ago. Heck, I barely remember that... We cannot believe that some kid from some place other than central New York thinks the same things about Syracuse Andy it's hallowed history that we think. We are talking about high school kids who know about the past few years and that's it. And a lot of kids haven't even been playing organized ball for more than a few years, so they don't even incidentally have a sense of things.

Wanting JB to stay is asking for us to just remain at 500 in conference, finishing 10th in the league, but praying for upsets in the NCAAs and hoping a couple of teams are unfamiliar with the zone so we can reach a final four, but still have no actual hopes of winning a championship. That's a silly scheme for a program of national prominence, and assumes we can get the 'benefit of the doubt' every other year just to get into the big dance. It's absolutely sickening to 'true fans' to be in the bubble every year, and sometimes get spurned while Virginia tech gets a 9 seed. VIRGINIA TECH. Somehow, they get in, while we have a team with 3-4 eventual NBA players and we get an '18 seed.' Some people were saying just this year that this was one of jb's best coaching jobs. Not so much.

It's painful. The transition. But the program is like a tree. Sometimes you have to cut off a branch to save it. You suffer a little in the short term, but the health of the tree has to be the paramount consideration.
 
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I feel the 2016 hoops season may end up looking a lot like the 2001 football season in retrospect.The 2001 season was a .500 team which won 10 largely due to Freeney..and I think that success masked just how far the program had dropped off. GRob took it to new depths - but it was already a shell of what it was.

The 2016 Final Four run is masking how far the basketball program has dropped off...I'm not really sure why JB would want to stick around for what looks increasingly like a near-complete rebuild.
 
JB is such a competitor that I doubt he wants to leave after such a disappointing year. But if he did, that just underscores the question of why coast? I jokingly said while watching the game, seems like the only time the team plays with intensity and effort is if the coaching shows the same fire. It all comes from the top... makes you wonder if something more drastic is up or its simple as "let this end mercifully", but it seems like that's the approach to recruiting as well... it's baffling. Everyone strikes out with recruits but to have no plan B or C except scramble and hope to land a serviceable 5th yr, seems about as sound as our offensive strategy this yr.
 
We have become Seton Hall in the ACC. I love all that JB has done but I would rather see what we have in Hopkins than another year of Seton Hall basketball in the ACC.
JB won't change and that is going to cause another white knuckle year of basketball. It is getting old and hard to watch SU hoops when I love SU hoops. Our style sucks and won't change with JB.
Thank you for all you done enjoy your life.
 
If what we hear from the recruiting experts on the board is correct, it must be torture for Hop on the recruiting trail. He knows this could be his team tomorrow, next year, 10 years from now..and has a dramatically different vision for players/scheme than Boeheim, yet JB sends him and the other assistants out on the trail, with no help from JB himself, to bring in "zone guys".

I don't know. I'm sure Hop isn't happy about having his hands tied on whom to recruit---if that's even true---but you're either a professional or you're not.
 
Dean Smith "IS the program." Until he wasn't.
Kobe Bryant is the franchise. Until he hurt the franchise for a few years while everyone needed to revere his productive years.

The JB loyalists seem to imagine a coach has a career trajectory like a never-ending upward linear progression. Reality is, it's more like a bell curve, and we are well on the the downside. No matter how fit he seems when he's screaming at our players on the sidelines, he's old and less-involved than he was 10 or 15 years ago.

Four years in the ACC and we have zero tournament wins. We are .500 against ACC teams in three straight years. All not so coincidentally occurring around the sanctions and his lame duck status. What exactly is "loyalty?" Are we supposed to be loyal to a man or to the program? The program is more important. Regardless of what he's given us over the hundred years he's been with us, there is a point at which he will be doing us long-term damage. Some people don't seem to care if that happens or don't think that IS happening, and they justify that with 12 minutes of Malachi Richardson being desperate not to write any more term papers.

I completely understand the fear that comes with change and transition. We have enjoyed remarkable consistency of having above average teams. But we are in decline that sees us with ONLY having average teams. JB will not be here to see us back into 'excellence.' We are only going to get back to being a power some number of years after he's gone. We don't know that Mike is going to be the savior but we do know it won't be JB unless He decides to stay another five to ten years, and all the recruits actually believe that. They'd be silly to believe that and I don't even believe enough kids revere JB as much as we would like to believe. It doesn't help to constantly see him red in the face and raving at a player every time one of his non-pets has a basket scored from somewhere in his general vicinity. The zone is effective some years, but you've got to question a scheme in which the coach still feels the need to yank a guy he has determined is important enough to be a starter, every time points are scored... in the last game of the season. Maybe you could expect that to be the Means of Instruction early in the year, but if all the same 'mistakes' are being made in game 30, the scheme or the treatment is flawed. And yes, we can still win a game DESPITE a flawed scheme.

We are not a premier destination at this point. JB is not going to be there for recruits. We have been noted for being a walk it up, slow tempo team for the last five years. We have the stink of sanctions. We look incompetent all too often. We get out dunked and out highlighted all too often. We are on the bubble all too often. We are not ranked at all for entire seasons all too often. A lot of us have been with the program for a long time. Me, since 85. But recruits? Young people today have an extremely limited frame of reference and perspective, as far as history is concerned. They don't know or remember that we went to a final four a few years ago. Heck, I barely remember that... We cannot believe that some kid from some place other than central New York thinks the same things about Syracuse Andy it's hallowed history that we think. We are talking about high school kids who know about the past few years and that's it. And a lot of kids haven't even been playing organized ball for more than a few years, so they don't even incidentally have a sense of things.

Wanting JB to stay is asking for us to just remain at 500 in conference, finishing 10th in the league, but praying for upsets in the NCAAs and hoping a couple of teams are unfamiliar with the zone so we can reach a final four, but still have no actual hopes of winning a championship. That's a silly scheme for a program of national prominence, and assumes we can get the 'benefit of the doubt' every other year just to get into the big dance. It's absolutely sickening to 'true fans' to be in the bubble every year, and sometimes get spurned while Virginia tech gets a 9 seed. VIRGINIA TECH. Somehow, they get in, while we have a team with 3-4 eventual NBA players and we get an '18 seed.' Some people were saying just this year that this was one of jb's best coaching jobs. Not so much.

It's painful. The transition. But the program is like a tree. Sometimes you have to cut off a branch to save it. You suffer a little in the short term, but the health of the tree has to be the paramount consideration.


Do you remember what happened after Dean Smith left? He retired without warning in September to ensure that his buddy, Guthridge--who was similarly ancient--would get the job and that the University wouldn't be able to go out and conduct a candidate search. Problem was, Gutheridge wasn't a long term solution because of how old he was. Gut won with at a high level with the players Dean Smith recruited for two years, before retiring himself. He didn't add to the talent base that Dean had built and that he benefitted from, which ultimately would put the next coach in a precarious spot. UNC decided to hire from "within" the family, and brought in Matt Doherty, who had a disastrous three year tenure before being fired--which included an 8-20 debacle.

UNC bounced back because they were lucky to hire a tremendously successful coach [with ties to their program] away from another elite. A guy with a proven track record of success, who'd coached Kansas to multiple national championship appearances, was a top flight recruiter, and a much better head coach than Doherty was. Even so, he was the third guy after Dean Smith, the icon.

Remind me again how Indiana is doing post Bobby Knight? They're still searching for a guy to fill those shoes a decade and a half later.

Don't get me started on Georgetown.

You've mistakenly characterized the issue as being being reluctant about change / transition. I think MANY posters conversely look forward to change / an infusion of new ideas coming into the program, but also recognize that it isn't easy replacing iconic coaches -- in any sport. And unfortunately, Hop is no sure thing. Hope like hell he succeeds at the highest level and is here for 20+ additional years, building his own layers of success upon the foundation Boeheim's started. I also hope like hell that in 10 years, WE aren't on our third coach, or caught in a perpetual cycle of the program yo-yo'ing like Indiana has been. Or even worse, that Boeheim BEING the program manifests, and we aren't able to sustain the success, and turn into the ACC's version of Seton Hall like Alsacs suggests above.

I think some underestimate how difficult it is to replace an iconic coach.
 
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I feel the 2016 hoops season may end up looking a lot like the 2001 football season in retrospect.The 2001 season was a .500 team which won 10 largely due to Freeney..and I think that success masked just how far the program had dropped off. GRob took it to new depths - but it was already a shell of what it was.

The 2016 Final Four run is masking how far the basketball program has dropped off...I'm not really sure why JB would want to stick around for what looks increasingly like a near-complete rebuild.

I feel like I've given some version of this post a million times, but one more won't hurt anyone.

We have structural advantages that the football team does not enjoy. At one point in the not too distant past we ad two starters from JD. You can fill a roster within a 5 hour drive from our campus. Can't do that in football. While we had some great seasons in football in the 80s and 90s, we were never truly an elite program. A lot of 8-4 type seasons even with McNabb. The basketball program is exponentially bigger than the football program ever was. Unfortunately we're taking the road of least resistance and hiring our cheapest option out of loyalty, but if Hop fails, we'll have a line of coaches beating down our door. The only "if" is whether SU will pay for a great coach. If SU is committed, we'll eventually be fine.
 
Dean Smith "IS the program." Until he wasn't.
Kobe Bryant is the franchise. Until he hurt the franchise for a few years while everyone needed to revere his productive years.

The JB loyalists seem to imagine a coach has a career trajectory like a never-ending upward linear progression. Reality is, it's more like a bell curve, and we are well on the the downside. No matter how fit he seems when he's screaming at our players on the sidelines, he's old and less-involved than he was 10 or 15 years ago.

Four years in the ACC and we have zero tournament wins. We are .500 against ACC teams in three straight years. All not so coincidentally occurring around the sanctions and his lame duck status. What exactly is "loyalty?" Are we supposed to be loyal to a man or to the program? The program is more important. Regardless of what he's given us over the hundred years he's been with us, there is a point at which he will be doing us long-term damage. Some people don't seem to care if that happens or don't think that IS happening, and they justify that with 12 minutes of Malachi Richardson being desperate not to write any more term papers.

I completely understand the fear that comes with change and transition. We have enjoyed remarkable consistency of having above average teams. But we are in decline that sees us with ONLY having average teams. JB will not be here to see us back into 'excellence.' We are only going to get back to being a power some number of years after he's gone. We don't know that Mike is going to be the savior but we do know it won't be JB unless He decides to stay another five to ten years, and all the recruits actually believe that. They'd be silly to believe that and I don't even believe enough kids revere JB as much as we would like to believe. It doesn't help to constantly see him red in the face and raving at a player every time one of his non-pets has a basket scored from somewhere in his general vicinity. The zone is effective some years, but you've got to question a scheme in which the coach still feels the need to yank a guy he has determined is important enough to be a starter, every time points are scored... in the last game of the season. Maybe you could expect that to be the Means of Instruction early in the year, but if all the same 'mistakes' are being made in game 30, the scheme or the treatment is flawed. And yes, we can still win a game DESPITE a flawed scheme.

We are not a premier destination at this point. JB is not going to be there for recruits. We have been noted for being a walk it up, slow tempo team for the last five years. We have the stink of sanctions. We look incompetent all too often. We get out dunked and out highlighted all too often. We are on the bubble all too often. We are not ranked at all for entire seasons all too often. A lot of us have been with the program for a long time. Me, since 85. But recruits? Young people today have an extremely limited frame of reference and perspective, as far as history is concerned. They don't know or remember that we went to a final four a few years ago. Heck, I barely remember that... We cannot believe that some kid from some place other than central New York thinks the same things about Syracuse Andy it's hallowed history that we think. We are talking about high school kids who know about the past few years and that's it. And a lot of kids haven't even been playing organized ball for more than a few years, so they don't even incidentally have a sense of things.

Wanting JB to stay is asking for us to just remain at 500 in conference, finishing 10th in the league, but praying for upsets in the NCAAs and hoping a couple of teams are unfamiliar with the zone so we can reach a final four, but still have no actual hopes of winning a championship. That's a silly scheme for a program of national prominence, and assumes we can get the 'benefit of the doubt' every other year just to get into the big dance. It's absolutely sickening to 'true fans' to be in the bubble every year, and sometimes get spurned while Virginia tech gets a 9 seed. VIRGINIA TECH. Somehow, they get in, while we have a team with 3-4 eventual NBA players and we get an '18 seed.' Some people were saying just this year that this was one of jb's best coaching jobs. Not so much.

It's painful. The transition. But the program is like a tree. Sometimes you have to cut off a branch to save it. You suffer a little in the short term, but the health of the tree has to be the paramount consideration.

That's the best post I've seen on this board all season. And perhaps even longer than that. Thank you.
 
Today Mississippi made 15-3's. I have to question sticking with the zone 100%.

JB has been great for Syracuse for many years, but sometimes you have to scratch your head.

This is my biggest concern now. The zone was designed to be effective when fewer teams had the personnel to attack it or shoot over it. But far more teams have guys that can di it easily.
 
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