Boeheim should do the right thing and step down now.

[Alsacs]

Do you remember what happened after Dean Smith left? He retired without warning in September to ensure that his buddy, Guthridge, would get the job. Gut won with Dean Smith's players for two years, but was ancient and retired himself after that. UNC decided to hire from "within" the family, and brought in Matt Doherty, who had a disastrous three year tenure before being fired--which included an 8-20 debacle.

UNC bounced back because they were lucky to hire a tremendously successful coach [with ties to their program] away from another elite. A guy with a proven track record of success, who'd coached Kansas to multiple national championship appearances and was a top flight recruiter. Even so, he was the third guy after Dean Smith, the icon.

Remind me again how Indiana is doing post Bobby Knight? They're still searching for a guy to fill those shoes.

Don't get me started on Georgetown.

You've mistakenly characterized the issue as being being reluctant about change. I think MANY posters conversely look forward to change / an infusion of new ideas into the program, but we need to also recognize that it isn't easy replacing iconic coaches -- in any sport. And unfortunately, Hop is no sure thing. Hope like hell he succeeds at the highest level and is here for 20+ additional years, building his own layers of success upon the foundation Boeheim's started. And I hope that in 10 years, WE aren't on our third coach, or caught in a perpetual cycle of the program yo-yo'ing like Indiana has been. Or even worse, that Boeheim BEING the program manifests, and we aren't able to sustain the success.

Roy Williams would have replaced Guthridge if he didn't just recruit Nick Collinson and Kirk Hinrich to Kansas.
He wanted to coach those guys and it worked out perfectly for Roy. He coached them 3 more years and then Doherty flamed out but recruited really well.
Doherty wasn't ready for UNC as Guthridge left him the goods for one year but little beyond Joe Forte and Brendan Haywood for 1 year. Doherty stocked it up back was fired and Roy came in and won a NC his 2nd year with Doherty's recruits.

Doherty is what scares me about Hopkins. Hop 5 years ago should have gone for a HC job and gotten his training wheels. We are gambling he will fine. If he isn't fine SU better pony up for his replacement or we are done. We have gotten away paying Boeheim below market rate. With all the money from the Dome/ACC TV money needs to freaking show it will spend some money.

 

[tipphill]

You're blind if you think recruiting hasn't fallen off. And you're misguided if you don't have concerns about the state of this program. IMO JB retiring this offseason would be the first part of turning this around. There's no reason he should hang on for dear life until he's literally in the grave. He's not getting it done anymore. Point blank.

There no conjecture about any of that. We have over 40 losses in the last three seasons. Not good.

recruiting is bad. when he retires we are in for a nose dive, which has already started. it would not bother me if he stays or leaves. either way the program is in trouble and and we will fall farther behind.
i hope hop is successful, but from what i have seen thus far it does not look good. give him 3 yrs and if he can't improve recruiting after two classes, let him go and get a name name coach in here.

 

[RF2044]

Roy Williams would have replaced Guthridge if he didn't just recruit Nick Collinson and Kirk Hinrich to Kansas.
He wanted to coach those guys and it worked out perfectly for Roy. He coached them 3 more years and then Doherty flamed out but recruited really well.
Doherty wasn't ready for UNC as Guthridge left him the goods for one year but little beyond Joe Forte and Brendan Haywood for 1 year. Doherty stocked it up back was fired and Roy came in and won a NC his 2nd year with Doherty's recruits.

Doherty is what scares me about Hopkins. Hop 5 years ago should have gone for a HC job and gotten his training wheels. We are gambling he will fine. If he isn't fine SU better pony up for his replacement or we are done. We have gotten away paying Boeheim below market rate. With all the money from the Dome/ACC TV money needs to freaking show it will spend some money.

But Williams didn't -- which is why it took UNC--despite being an elite blue blooded program--three coaches to stabilize after Dean Smith retired.

Your second paragraph is spot on. It SHOULD scare all of us. And this is coming from somebody who loves the guy, and is excited to see what he can do.

Replacing iconic coaches isn't easy--most programs take one [if not multiple] steps backwards before they right the ship. If they ever do.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Your second paragraph is spot on. It SHOULD scare all of us. And this is coming from somebody who loves the guy, and is excited to see what he can do.

Replacing iconic coaches isn't easy--most programs take one [if not multiple] steps backwards before they right the ship. If they ever do.

I remember hearing about Smith sticking around and meddling throughout Doherty's time. That's my biggest fear with post retirement for SU. JB needs to go when he's done and focus on his kids.

 

[longislandcuse]

recruiting is bad. when he retires we are in for a nose dive, which has already started. it would not bother me if he stays or leaves. either way the program is in trouble and and we will fall farther behind.
i hope hop is successful, but from what i have seen thus far it does not look good. give him 3 yrs and if he can't improve recruiting after two classes, let him go and get a name name coach in here.

It can't get much worse because we are Syracuse in the ACC and that at least means something.

This class is awful. Brissett and Sidibe may very well be underrated for whatever reasons but neither looks to be a player ready to give us much in their freshman years... and that's ok, but we no longer believe in "program guys" it seems.

Howard Washington was out of desperation and now we're hoping to pull some magic in the late recruiting period/grad transfer market...again.

It's bad right now and unless Hop's first recruiting class is made up of 3 stars with offers from AAC schools, I don't see how he could possibly do worse than what we have lined up to come in next year.

 

[supp]

This is my biggest concern now. The zone was designed to be effective when fewer teams had the personnel to attack it or shoot over it. But far more teams have guys that can di it easily.

Shooting has improved across the board. Even in the girls' game. Look at what the ladies did today. It's not torture to watch women's basketball anymore.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Do you remember what happened after Dean Smith left? He retired without warning in September to ensure that his buddy, Guthridge--who was similarly ancient--would get the job and that the University wouldn't be able to go out and conduct a candidate search. Problem was, Gutheridge wasn't a long term solution because of how old he was. Gut won with at a high level with the players Dean Smith recruited for two years, before retiring himself. He didn't add to the talent base that Dean had built and that he benefitted from, which ultimately would put the next coach in a precarious spot. UNC decided to hire from "within" the family, and brought in Matt Doherty, who had a disastrous three year tenure before being fired--which included an 8-20 debacle.

UNC bounced back because they were lucky to hire a tremendously successful coach [with ties to their program] away from another elite. A guy with a proven track record of success, who'd coached Kansas to multiple national championship appearances, was a top flight recruiter, and a much better head coach than Doherty was. Even so, he was the third guy after Dean Smith, the icon.

Remind me again how Indiana is doing post Bobby Knight? They're still searching for a guy to fill those shoes a decade and a half later.

Don't get me started on Georgetown.

You've mistakenly characterized the issue as being being reluctant about change / transition. I think MANY posters conversely look forward to change / an infusion of new ideas coming into the program, but also recognize that it isn't easy replacing iconic coaches -- in any sport. And unfortunately, Hop is no sure thing. Hope like hell he succeeds at the highest level and is here for 20+ additional years, building his own layers of success upon the foundation Boeheim's started. I also hope like hell that in 10 years, WE aren't on our third coach, or caught in a perpetual cycle of the program yo-yo'ing like Indiana has been. Or even worse, that Boeheim BEING the program manifests, and we aren't able to sustain the success, and turn into the ACC's version of Seton Hall like Alsacs suggests above.

I think some underestimate how difficult it is to replace an iconic coach.

What does Guthridge have to do with us? As you just said, Smith retired without warning and installed another ancient coach. My point about North Carolina was ONLY about the oft-repeated claim that some 'legendary' coach or player IS the program. But, those guys must eventually go, and years later, they aren't the program any more than 'Bobby Knight still IS Indiana.' The fact is, we HAVE to move on. The OP's premise is that we should move on NOW. That's the discussion. Not if we are going to suck like Georgetown. JB WILL be going this year or next. My point, and I assume the OP's point is that we are only going to be able to begin the next era when he JB leaves, and he's not doing us any good by staying another year. Another .500, lame duck season only puts off us knowing if we have a good coach in Hop by another year.

If you need to cite Indiana and a post-Knight program, I'll just cite UCONN. No one is underestimating the difficulty in replacing an iconic coach. But it's a fact of life that we DO have to do it. It's not a matter of kicking him out at age 50. He's done, for one reason or another, and replacing him is a necessity, not an option. If we are going to suffer from having Mike there as HC, it's better to know sooner than later, since JB cannot restore us in his one potential remaining season. Him 'lingering' is only killing our ability to get upper-level kids, and without better talent, we are going to flounder in-conference.

 

[HakAttack]

Zelda Zonk hits it on the head for me. JB staying another year does nothing to help this program.

 

[RF2044]

What does Guthridge have to do with us? As you just said, Smith retired without warning and installed another ancient coach. My point about North Carolina was ONLY about the oft-repeated claim that some 'legendary' coach or player IS the program. But, those guys must eventually go, and years later, they aren't the program any more than 'Bobby Knight still IS Indiana.' The fact is, we HAVE to move on. The OP's premise is that we should move on NOW. That's the discussion. Not if we are going to suck like Georgetown. JB WILL be going this year or next. My point, and I assume the OP's point is that we are only going to be able to begin the next era when he JB leaves, and he's not doing us any good by staying another year. Another .500, lame duck season only puts off us knowing if we have a good coach in Hop by another year.

If you need to cite Indiana and a post-Knight program, I'll just cite UCONN. No one is underestimating the difficulty in replacing an iconic coach. But it's a fact of life that we DO have to do it. It's not a matter of kicking him out at age 50. He's done, for one reason or another, and replacing him is a necessity, not an option. If we are going to suffer from having Mike there as HC, it's better to know sooner than later, since JB cannot restore us in his one potential remaining season. Him 'lingering' is only killing our ability to get upper-level kids, and without better talent, we are going to flounder in-conference.

It has to do with him being one of three coaches UNC had to cycle through in rapid succession before they found the right one post-Dean Smith.

Uconn? Good lord--I envy them that championship, I honestly do. But what a disaster that has become post Calhoun. Ollie won with Calhoun's players, and then due to a multitude of factors--some of which have to do with him perhaps not being nearly as good of a coach as many initially attributed, and other parts of it due to them being mired in a mid-major conference--they've fallen off of a cliff. Point to them all you want--it is an awful analogy and not a very good argument.

You're right--change is needed, and it is coming. I don't lament Boeheim's departure, even though I appreciate what he's done. But what it appears you are failing to recognize is that there are numerous examples of programs struggling in the wake of having to replace iconic coaches, and few examples of those programs--even elite ones--having smooth transitions. If you look at my response to the OP, you'll see that I don't disagree with him--I'm just suggesting that people need to be careful what they wish for, because sustained success is no sure thing. Especially when we go with an unproven commodity.

Which is why I brought up UNC, Indiana, and Georgetown. I don't want to see our program repeat those mistakes.

One final point: I am not advocating JB staying or going. If he goes this year, I would be OK with that, and if he chooses to stay, I believe he's earned that right. I would be more comfortable about our next step if we were going after a more proven head coach, but the situation is what it is.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

The skuttlebutt is that JB has already kicked the tires with the new AD / Chancellor about remaining past 2018, and was told that the university was going to follow the succession plan. I don't expect him to coach beyond next year. Wouldn't be surprised if he decides to hang them up this offseason, either. He doesn't strike me as the type who would want to endure a farewell tour atmosphere.

I was saying the Same thing earlier in the year. That JB wouldn't want the spectacle and bother of a 'farewell tour season.' But seeing him relishing in the adulation of the '1000 win' game... now I dunno. He rully, rully seemed to enjoy that moment.

 

[br801]

I remember hearing about Smith sticking around and meddling throughout Doherty's time. That's my biggest fear with post retirement for SU. JB needs to go when he's done and focus on his kids.

JB ain't a meddling-after-he-retires kinda guy. He will make himself available to Hop, but otherwise I think you'll see and hear very little from him publicly where the team is concerned.

 

[RF2044]

JB ain't a meddling-after-he-retires kind guy. He will make himself available to Hop, but otherwise I think you'll see and hear very little from him publicly where the team is concerned.

I hope so. Tend to agree.

 

[Ish88888]

JB is such a competitor that I doubt he wants to leave after such a disappointing year. But if he did, that just underscores the question of why coast? I jokingly said while watching the game, seems like the only time the team plays with intensity and effort is if the coaching shows the same fire. It all comes from the top... makes you wonder if something more drastic is up or its simple as "let this end mercifully", but it seems like that's the approach to recruiting as well... it's baffling. Everyone strikes out with recruits but to have no plan B or C except scramble and hope to land a serviceable 5th yr, seems about as sound as our offensive strategy this yr.

He is such a competitor that he is too stubborn to actually make adjustments and insist that his , once strategic and different zone is obsolete, needs to be dropped at times. The game has changed, he hasnt. Teams routinely shoot over the zone. Teams practice from 25 ft out. Look at what jay wright did in his adjustments at HT, playing a stud #8 seed and way bigger squad than he has. THATS coaching.

 

[Chip]

Early departures are killing him. We don't have the Kentucky model and there are very few schools who could even pull that off.

He should handcuff Battle and Lydon to the locker room. When next season practice starts, oh you guys are still here? Good.

 

[Marty McFly]

I dunno plenty of games that he gets up for he coaches his ass off like Duke or the UVA games this yr. A lot of the time he just seems to play the percentages and run out trunk monkey. How much is coaching, how much is on the players for executing or showing heart or leadership? I don't know, but can't put it all on the coach.

 

[br801]

He is such a competitor that he is too stubborn to actually make adjustments and insist that his , once strategic and different zone is obsolete, needs to be dropped at times. The game has changed, he hasnt. Teams routinely shoot over the zone. Teams practice from 25 ft out. Look at what jay wright did in his adjustments at HT, playing a stud #8 seed and way bigger squad than he has. THATS coaching.

If only JB knew how to coach, he might have been able to come up with a contrarian approach that would have allowed him to win consistently at the highest level of college basketball for 40+ years and make a few Final Four runs along the way.

 

[81South]

If he isn't going to coach next year I sure hope he announces soon. I want Hop to be able to sell his vision on the trail this spring and summer.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

It has to do with him being one of the three coaches UNC went with in rapid succession before they found the right one post-Dean Smith.

Uconn? Good lord--I envy them that championship, I honestly do. But what a disaster that has become post Calhoun. Ollie won with Calhoun's players, and then due to a multitude of factors--some of which have to do with him perhaps not being nearly as good of a coach as many initially attributed, and other parts of it due to them being mired in a mid-major conference--they've fallen off of a cliff. Point to them all you want--it is an awful analogy and not a very good argument.

You're right--change is needed. But you still seem to fail to grasp that there are numerous examples of programs struggling in the wake of having to replace iconic coaches, and few examples of those programs--even elite ones--having smooth transitions. In fact, if you look at my response to the OP, you'll see that I don't disagree with him--I'm just suggesting that people need to be careful what they wish for, because sustained success is no sure thing. Especially when we go with an unproven commodity.

Which is why I brought up UNC, Indiana, and Georgetown. I don't want to see our program repeat those mistakes.

Don't think I'm "failing to understand" anything. We are just disagreeing on the parameters of the argument. JB IS leaving. So any horror stories about successors in other programs are absolutely moot. We will be replacing him at whatever point. This is about 2017-18. Period. Does JB coaching 17-18 help us in any way other than showing him the 'respect/loyalty' that many people believe he has earned. I don't think so. And even as a person who is not in the I Love The Infallible JAB Camp, I still used to say that he had earned the right to decide when he leaves. But that was before he (allegedly) decided to stop running practices. Before he (allegedly) stopped traveling outside of a comfort/convenience zone to get recruits. Before he (documented) started falling asleep in public. He may be as fiery and competitive on the court during games, but I don't believe he's 100% at other times, and that includes preparing the players we already have. We have, far too often this year, looked incompetent at a level that was not commensurate with our talent level, and prepared at a level below our standing.

This isn't a matter of "careful what you wish for." I don't even see how that expression applies. This isn't five years ago. This is now, a year away from him leaving. An inevitability. An immediate inevitability. THIS IS HAPPENING. It's just a matter of how slowly it's going to happen. I'm not yet seeing any arguments where there's an actual benefit to it happening slowly.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

I dunno plenty of games that he gets up for he coaches his ass off like Duke or the UVA games this yr. A lot of the time he just seems to play the percentages and run out trunk monkey. How much is coaching, how much is on the players for executing or showing heart or leadership? I don't know, but can't put it all on the coach.

I dunno. Which game was it this year, Florida state? Where we came out from the opening tip, pressing and trapping? That stunned the top ten favorites, and energized us all the way to a yoooge win. That kind of thing was too rare.

Did you notice today how, when we got down by like six in the first half, we started to actually play hard and with real focus and determination? Then the same thing when we got down in the second half. There was a vey visible change in our effort and energy. I don't really notice that kind of thing with our opponents. That's been my thing with JB teams since I started watching the games—we come out seemingly taking everything for granted. Then try to turn it on when we need it. Other teams scrap and fight because they always need to...

I wonder if it's JB that's "coaching his ass off" against Duke and VA, but how much of it is the players getting juiced-up for those opponents?

 

[Ish88888]

If only JB knew how to coach, he might have been able to come up with a contrarian approach that would have allowed him to win consistently at the highest level of college basketball for 40+ years and make a few Final Four runs along the way.

Oh come on. I respect his longevity but lets face it. The dome and 30k recruits itself. 3 final 4s in 40+. 1 ship compliments of melo. The zone was a thing 20 years ago. The game is stretched these days. AAU and the evolution of the 12 year old changed the game 6-8 yrs ago. Kids are coached to take an open 25 footer instead of a contested 12 footer. Its layups/dunks or 25 footers. Thats what the AAU system has produced. But JB hasn't adjusted. Kennedy schooled him in the 2nd half today. We got killed from the 3 pt. Line all year as we were jumping around with our hands up in the air at 20 ft. Never played man. Add in the fact that 50% of his wins came against the gates and cornells of the world for 30 years. For 30 years, JB, finally left the dome in January for conference play at 17/18-0.

 

[RF2044]

Don't think I'm "failing to understand" anything. We are just disagreeing on the parameters of the argument. JB IS leaving. So any horror stories about successors in other programs are absolutely moot. We will be replacing him at whatever point. This is about 2017-18. Period. Does JB coaching 17-18 help us in any way other than showing him the 'respect/loyalty' that many people believe he has earned. I don't think so. And even as a person who is not in the I Love The Infallible JAB Camp, I still used to say that he had earned the right to decide when he leaves. But that was before he (allegedly) decided to stop running practices. Before he (allegedly) stopped traveling outside of a comfort/convenience zone to get recruits. Before he (documented) started falling asleep in public. He may be as fiery and competitive on the court during games, but I don't believe he's 100% at other times, and that includes preparing the players we already have. We have, far too often this year, looked incompetent at a level that was not commensurate with our talent level, and prepared at a level below our standing.

This isn't a matter of "careful what you wish for." I don't even see how that expression applies. This isn't five years ago. This is now, a year away from him leaving. An inevitability. An immediate inevitability. THIS IS HAPPENING. It's just a matter of how slowly it's going to happen. I'm not yet seeing any arguments where there's an actual benefit to it happening slowly.

Let me connect the dots for you, because I think we're on the same page about some of this, and I think you are semi-mis attributing what I'm trying to say. You and the OP are advocating JB leaving after this season, so we can get on getting on.

I said "be careful what you wish for," because things generally don't go well for the guy succeeding the icon. And also because right, wrong or indifferent, JB is nearly single-handedly responsible for all of the success we've had as a program, for a period spanning more than four decades -- so our program being able to achieve a sustainable level of success without him is no sure thing.

You telling me "JB IS leaving" doesn't change any of the above concerns.

I am not opposed for him riding off into the sunset after this season, like you and Hak want. I also wouldn't throw a tantrum if he decides to stay, even though I agree whole-heartedly that he is hurting recruiting right now. Maybe him stepping down would be for the best, long term, maybe it won't.

"Be careful what you wish for" has ZERO to do with whether JB goes or stays another year, which is how you are trying to paint my comment--it is a cautionary statement about what might be in store for us long term for a program that has been almost entirely built upon the accomplishments of a HOF coach who led the program from being a mid-major into us being a program in the top 5 wins all time.

 

[HakAttack]

If only JB knew how to coach, he might have been able to come up with a contrarian approach that would have allowed him to win consistently at the highest level of college basketball for 40+ years and make a few Final Four runs along the way.

This is silly. No one's saying he doesn't know how to coach. What people are saying is that he's stubborn and refuses to make adjustments at this point of his career. I would agree with the latter.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Oh come on. I respect his longevity but lets face it. The dome and 30k recruits itself. 3 final 4s in 40+. 1 ship compliments of melo. The zone was a thing 20 years ago. The game is stretched these days. AAU and the evolution of the 12 year old changed the game 6-8 yrs ago. Kids are coached to take an open 25 footer instead of a contested 12 footer. Its layups/dunks or 25 footers. Thats what the AAU system has produced. But JB hasn't adjusted. Kennedy schooled him in the 2nd half today. We got killed from the 3 pt. Line all year as we were jumping around with our hands up in the air at 20 ft. Never played man. Add in the fact that 50% of his wins came against the gates and cornells of the world for 30 years. For 30 years, JB, finally left the dome in January for conference play at 17/18-0.

Its 5 final fours you dolt and I don't like that we are 100 percent zone either, but at least know what you're talking about. We have been one of the 20 best defensive teams in the country for the past 6 years until this year. You really know nothing.

 

[supp]

Don't think I'm "failing to understand" anything. We are just disagreeing on the parameters of the argument. JB IS leaving. So any horror stories about successors in other programs are absolutely moot. We will be replacing him at whatever point. This is about 2017-18. Period. Does JB coaching 17-18 help us in any way other than showing him the 'respect/loyalty' that many people believe he has earned. I don't think so. And even as a person who is not in the I Love The Infallible JAB Camp, I still used to say that he had earned the right to decide when he leaves. But that was before he (allegedly) decided to stop running practices. Before he (allegedly) stopped traveling outside of a comfort/convenience zone to get recruits. Before he (documented) started falling asleep in public. He may be as fiery and competitive on the court during games, but I don't believe he's 100% at other times, and that includes preparing the players we already have. We have, far too often this year, looked incompetent at a level that was not commensurate with our talent level, and prepared at a level below our standing.

This isn't a matter of "careful what you wish for." I don't even see how that expression applies. This isn't five years ago. This is now, a year away from him leaving. An inevitability. An immediate inevitability. THIS IS HAPPENING. It's just a matter of how slowly it's going to happen. I'm not yet seeing any arguments where there's an actual benefit to it happening slowly.

I think you're right that some complacency has set in. He's a 70-plus year old man who's done things his way for a long time. Getting someone like that to fully come to terms with a new reality and perhaps change things up is difficult to begin with but add the whole age/energy/focus factor and it's darn near impossible. He may want to keep coaching but I increasingly get the sense that he wants to do so only on his terms. That doesn't seem to be producing the results he wants, though. Wanting to do something but not being able to do it with the same vigor and focus as you once did is a dilemma that we will all have to face one day.

 

[OrangeDW]

Oh come on. I respect his longevity but lets face it. The dome and 30k recruits itself. 3 final 4s in 40+. 1 ship compliments of melo. The zone was a thing 20 years ago. The game is stretched these days. AAU and the evolution of the 12 year old changed the game 6-8 yrs ago. Kids are coached to take an open 25 footer instead of a contested 12 footer. Its layups/dunks or 25 footers. Thats what the AAU system has produced. But JB hasn't adjusted. Kennedy schooled him in the 2nd half today. We got killed from the 3 pt. Line all year as we were jumping around with our hands up in the air at 20 ft. Never played man. Add in the fact that 50% of his wins came against the gates and cornells of the world for 30 years. For 30 years, JB, finally left the dome in January for conference play at 17/18-0.

3 final fours? Do you even follow the program? My God.