Boeheim should do the right thing and step down now.

[cuse522]

What does this even mean? Oh, so the Syracuse fans who actually want to contend for an ACC Title in our lifetimes?

Maybe Hop is the answer, maybe he isn't. One thing is becoming clear - JB sure as hell isnt.

Saying JB isn't the answer is insane. We have to replace him at some point and Hop may or may not be the answer, but pushing JB out would be so bad for the program...

Everyone needs to chill out. We're under NCAA penalties and struggling, that's exactly what's supposed to happen when you're under NCAA penalties. Plus, speeding things up on Hop doesn't necessarily do him any favors if he's been recruiting for the zone for JB.

Last but not least, people need to be prepared for potentially a couple seasons of Hop struggling and a pressure-filled third year of him trying to build the program into his vision. Then, if it doesn't work, we'll need a national search and the new guy to get a few years, too. Also, during this time Duke and UNC could be replacing their coaches, so there could be turmoil in the conference AND we could be competing with two of the few programs better than ours for coaching candidates.

People are freaking out over a bubble season in which we just missed the NCAA tournament while under NCAA penalties. Things aren't great right now, but they're not nearly as bad as some would think, either.

 

[Cusefan0307]

3 final fours? Do you even follow the program? My God.

No he doesn't. He's a football poster that just trolls the basketball board.

 

[longislandcuse]

Saying JB isn't the answer is insane. We have to replace him at some point and Hop may or may not be the answer, but pushing JB out would be so bad for the program...

Everyone needs to chill out. We're under NCAA penalties and struggling, that's exactly what's supposed to happen when you're under NCAA penalties. Plus, speeding things up on Hop doesn't necessarily do him any favors if he's been recruiting for the zone for JB.

Last but not least, people need to be prepared for potentially a couple seasons of Hop struggling and a pressure-filled third year of him trying to build the program into his vision. Then, if it doesn't work, we'll need a national search and the new guy to get a few years, too. Also, during this time Duke and UNC could be replacing their coaches, so there could be turmoil in the conference AND we could be competing with two of the few programs better than ours for coaching candidates.

People are freaking out over a bubble season in which we just missed the NCAA tournament while under NCAA penalties. Things aren't great right now, but they're not nearly as bad as some would think, either.

It's easy to use sanctions as a crutch until you read the recruiting board and see what's been going on.

 

[OrangeDW]

No he doesn't. He's a football poster that just trolls the basketball board.

He ain't much better on the football board from what I've seen.

 

[cuse522]

It's easy to use sanctions as a crutch until you read the recruiting board and see what's been going on.

I'm somewhat aware, but again that plays into it even if you don't see it on the surface. That's gotta be pretty easy to recruit against.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Don't think I'm "failing to understand" anything. We are just disagreeing on the parameters of the argument. JB IS leaving. So any horror stories about successors in other programs are absolutely moot. We will be replacing him at whatever point. This is about 2017-18. Period. Does JB coaching 17-18 help us in any way other than showing him the 'respect/loyalty' that many people believe he has earned. I don't think so. And even as a person who is not in the I Love The Infallible JAB Camp, I still used to say that he had earned the right to decide when he leaves. But that was before he (allegedly) decided to stop running practices. Before he (allegedly) stopped traveling outside of a comfort/convenience zone to get recruits. Before he (documented) started falling asleep in public. He may be as fiery and competitive on the court during games, but I don't believe he's 100% at other times, and that includes preparing the players we already have. We have, far too often this year, looked incompetent at a level that was not commensurate with our talent level, and prepared at a level below our standing.

This isn't a matter of "careful what you wish for." I don't even see how that expression applies. This isn't five years ago. This is now, a year away from him leaving. An inevitability. An immediate inevitability. THIS IS HAPPENING. It's just a matter of how slowly it's going to happen. I'm not yet seeing any arguments where there's an actual benefit to it happening slowly.

Good post. These are all fair and valid points. The goal is to preserve the brand and program and the transition should be expedited in order to do so as smoothly as possible, IMO. Hopkins is selling a completely new scheme, apparently. The old scheme is clearly not attracting the kinds of guards Syracuse needs lately. Lead guards especially which is paramount in college basketball. Watching this team play offensive basketball since the first half of the Ennis season hasn't been an attractive quality. This season they chucked all year and had some talented shooters so sometime s the offense looked good masking the PG woes. The defense? Who wants to play in a zone 24/7? Enough said. This on top of the probation blemish/scarring is a bad combo. If you can't get the elite players then you better start developing them. I think Boeheim is asleep at the wheel in both departments. Just can't have that. It's going to be the same stale/rinse and repeat scheme next year with JB and our brand/reputation may plummet even more. Can't have that.

 

[supp]

I'm somewhat aware, but again that plays into it even if you don't see it on the surface. That's gotta be pretty easy to recruit against.

Why? There is no NCAA ban to recruit against. Obviously if we're recruiting a kid, it means we have a spot for him. I don't see why it would make things easier to recruit against us. What the sanctions have done is make it more difficult to build depth but we haven't helped ourselves on that front with some big scouting misses in recent years.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Let me connect the dots for you. You and the OP are advocating JB leaving after this season, so we can get on getting on.

I said "be careful what you wish for," because things generally don't go well for the guy succeeding the icon. And also because right, wrong or indifferent, JB is nearly single-handedly responsible for all of the success we've had as a program, for a period spanning more than four decades -- so our program being able to achieve a sustainable level of success without him is no sure thing.

You telling me "JB IS leaving" doesn't change any of the above concerns.

I am not opposed for him riding off into the sunset after this season. I wouldn't throw a tantrum if he decides to stay, unlike some. I agree whole heartedly that he is hurting recruiting right now. Maybe him stepping down would be for the best, long term, maybe it won't.

"Be careful what you wish for" has ZERO to do with whether JB goes or stays another year, which is how you are trying to paint my comment--it is a cautionary tale about what might transpire long term for a program that has been built upon the accomplishments of a HOF coach who led the program from being a mid-major into us being a program in the top 5 wins all time.

Thanks for the condescension. Again. But your "dots" still don't connect.
What is this "wish" you're talking about? This discussion is about JB leaving this year or next. Any "wish" at this point is only relative to whether it happens this year or next. And you've just said you're ambivalent about either. "Be careful what you wish for" typically means there are two divergent results on either side of a wish. That is not the case in this situation. What is it that can be "wished for" in your side of this silly semantic debate? That we replace JB? Since he IS retiring, the only thing that CAN happen is that he be replaced. So, okay, yes, we are all wishing for JB to be replaced. And we are more likely than not to see sub-JB results. Is that what we need to be "careful" of? Making a decision or choice that is being forced upon us? A decision that JB made/announced himself?

The actual "wish" in THIS scenario is that some wish he would retire now, and some wish he will retire next year. And still, there have been zero arguments for Next Year that benefit The Program.

But, maybe I'm still misunderstanding something and you need to draw me a map to a clue. Really, RF, I'm here debating an argument, and you seem to need to make it personal. All this BS aside, I'm glad you're here to present your perspectives, even when I don't agree with them, as well as the actual information you have. So, that's it on this for me. I'm going to go back to my Mike Tyson Mysteries.

 

[RF2044]

Thanks for the condescension. Again. But your "dots" still don't connect.
What is this "wish" you're talking about? This discussion is about JB leaving this year or next. Any "wish" at this point is only relative to whether it happens this year or next. And you've just said you're ambivalent about either. "Be careful what you wish for" typically means there are two divergent results on either side of a wish. That is not the case in this situation. What is it that can be "wished for" in your side of this silly semantic debate? That we replace JB? Since he IS retiring, the only thing that CAN happen is that he be replaced. So, okay, yes, we are all wishing for JB to be replaced. And we are more likely than not to see sub-JB results. Is that what we need to be "careful" of? Making a decision or choice that is being forced upon us? A decision that JB made/announced himself?

The actual "wish" in THIS scenario is that some wish he would retire now, and some wish he will retire next year. And still, there have been zero arguments for Next Year that benefit The Program.

But, maybe I'm still misunderstanding something and you need to draw me a map to a clue. Really, RF, I'm here debating an argument, and you seem to need to make it personal. All this BS aside, I'm glad you're here to present your perspectives, even when I don't agree with them, as well as the actual information you have. So, that's it on this for me. I'm going to go back to my Mike Tyson Mysteries.

Make it personal? What are you talking about? Not at all! You've written numerous posts largely arguing against positions I haven't made, all the while saying many of the same things that I've said throughout this thread. Go back and read my original response to the OP, and then compare that to what you've repeatedly stated in numerous posts.

As for the "wish" in "be careful what you wish for" -- I really didn't think that I needed to explain this common idiom. We both know that you're a lot smarter than that.

I've also conceded that we aren't disagreeing on quite a bit of this. You just seemed determined to make it an argument, or to find an argument in my responses that isn't there. That's fine. I'm not really in the mood after our season ending today. Thought this was just a friendly debate. I notice that even though Hak and I haven't agreed on a couple of points [for example], he's still liked several of my posts in the thread and vice versa. There's nothing wrong with civil discourse--we all love the program.

Simpactico! Have a good Saturday.

PS--I don't know if I've ever expressed this, but you have an AWESOME handle!

 

[AZOrange]

If what we hear from the recruiting experts on the board is correct, it must be torture for Hop on the recruiting trail. He knows this could be his team tomorrow, next year, 10 years from now..and has a dramatically different vision for players/scheme than Boeheim, yet JB sends him and the other assistants out on the trail, with no help from JB himself, to bring in "zone guys".

The long drawn out goodbye is absolutely KILLING us on the recruiting trail.

 

[HakAttack]

The long drawn out goodbye is absolutely KILLING us on the recruiting trail.

Ding ding ding. And again, as Zelda Zonk says, what's one positive for JB coming back in 17-18'? It's even more of a positive to end it now so Hop can scramble to get some guys in for next season that will buy into his system that he'll be building.

 

[iommi]

No he doesn't. He's a football poster that just trolls the basketball board.

I said that in another thread. In a few days he won't be around on this side until next March if we are a factor. Can't wait.

 

[iommi]

Ding ding ding. And again, as Zelda Zonk says, what's one positive for JB coming back in 17-18'? It's even more of a positive to end it now so Hop can scramble to get some guys in for next season that will buy into his system that he'll be building.

Also, Hop coming in next year would work as far as expectations. We'd be coming off an NIT trip with yet another pretty much new team (assuming Lydon bounces). No one with a brain will have top 4 ACC-type expectations.

 

[Briancuse]

I am in the camp that Jb should retire whenever he wants, but with that said, he needs to get after it more in recruiting. We are Freaking Syracuse, next year's incoming class is unacceptable.

 

[Briancuse]

Also, Hop coming in next year would work as far as expectations. We'd be coming off an NIT trip with yet another pretty much new team (assuming Lydon bounces). No one with a brain will have top 4 ACC-type expectations.

If Lydon leaves we are screwed, it doesn't matter who is coaching, we could be Bc bad, we need him back.

 

[Ish88888]

Its 5 final fours you dolt and I don't like that we are 100 percent zone either, but at least know what you're talking about. We have been one of the 20 best defensive teams in the country for the past 6 years until this year. You really know nothing.

I guess all i screwed up was the final 4s . But, ok, my bad. If you think our defense and the zone is the thing to di going forward, then not sure what to say. Add in the fact that our CIW has been taught this obsolete zone, oh boy. Ridiculous coach in waiting situation. Who would you rather have? Greg Marshall or Hop?

 

[Cusefan0307]

I guess all i screwed up was the final 4s . But, ok, my bad. If you think our defense and the zone is the thing to di going forward, then not sure what to say. Add in the fact that our CIW has been taught this obsolete zone, oh boy. Ridiculous coach in waiting situation. Who would you rather have? Greg Marshall or Hop?

I didn't say any of that. Quit putting words into my mouth. The zone has worked every year, but this year. I agree we need to change moving forward to mix things up, but you state things as fact when they are absolute lies. That's why I consistently rebut your posts. There is little accuracy to them.

How do we know Hop isn't Greg Gard? We don't know that either. Start posting accurate facts on here and I won't give you such a hard time.

 

[HakAttack]

So trying to keep the discussion about Boeheim in this thread, if he announces that he will step down this offseason, I echo what others have said and hope he does it in the not-too distant future so Hopkins can go after some transfers/guys he wants for his system.

 

[br801]

I guess all i screwed up was the final 4s . But, ok, my bad. If you think our defense and the zone is the thing to di going forward, then not sure what to say. Add in the fact that our CIW has been taught this obsolete zone, oh boy. Ridiculous coach in waiting situation. Who would you rather have? Greg Marshall or Hop?

Why not that paragon of new age coaching you lauded earlier, Jay Wright? Or maybe his title last year was an aberration, and the early exit as a 1 or 2 seed is more his norm? Or maybe it's just damn hard to win in the postseason, and there are several ways to get it done, with no right or wrong way?

 

[Bayside44]

Early departures are killing him. We don't have the Kentucky model and there are very few schools who could even pull that off.

He should handcuff Battle and Lydon to the locker room. When next season practice starts, oh you guys are still here? Good.

He can borrow your handcuffs.

Reality is we have one guy who wants one kind of kid and another guy who wants another type of kid. Add in the early entries, some other recruiting misses we are where we are.

I don't think JB steps down this year.

 

[HakAttack]

Why not that paragon of new age coaching you lauded earlier, Jay Wright? Or maybe his title last year was an aberration, and the early exit as a 1 or 2 seed is more his norm? Or maybe it's just damn hard to win in the postseason, and there are several ways to get it none, with no right or wrong way?

I think Wright's early exit just goes to show how good of a coach he is, and why Pitt IMO was stupid in running off Dixon. Winning in March is damn hard. I'm not knocking JB for that. Trust me. My beef with him is not about his performance in March.

You have to be in the big dance every year to get a crack at the Final Four. Wright has taken Nova there 12 times in 17 years while with the program. That's pretty good. Not necessarily elite, but definitely top 10.

 

[HakAttack]

He can borrow your handcuffs.

Reality is we have one guy who wants one kind of kid and another guy who wants another type of kid. Add in the early entries, some other recruiting misses we are where we are.

I don't think JB steps down this year.

A hunch? Why do you think that's not the case?

 

[Ish88888]

I didn't say any of that. Quit putting words into my mouth. The zone has worked every year, but this year. I agree we need to change moving forward to mix things up, but you state things as fact when they are absolute lies. That's why I consistently rebut your posts. There is little accuracy to them.

How do we know Hop isn't Greg Gard? We don't know that either. Start posting accurate facts on here and I won't give you such a hard time.

Accurate facts? Ok, i missed on the F4 stats. But, i am pretty connected to what is going on with the program as of late. Hope as Greg Gard? Lol. Don't think so. Gard didn't sit on the bench as the CIW for 15-20 years.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Accurate facts? Ok, i missed on the F4 stats. But, i am pretty connected to what is going on with the program as of late. Hope as Greg Gard? Lol. Don't think so. Gard didn't sit on the bench as the CIW for 15-20 years.

You said the defense has been outdated for 20 years when we went to three final fours and won a title. Idiotic.

Where the heck to you think Gard came from? He was Bo Ryan's top assistant. Ryan retired so their AD was forced to give it to Gard.

And you're not connected to anything. The people who post here know who's connected.

 

[Cusefan0307]

So trying to keep the discussion about Boeheim in this thread, if he announces that he will step down this offseason, I echo what others have said and hope he does it in the not-too distant future so Hopkins can go after some transfers/guys he wants for his system.

I wouldn't mind if Hop took over. I'm kind of ready for it. The reality is if next year isn't great and JB leaves the fans aren't going to have any patience with him.