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Broyld

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Who among us doesn't feel like we are right on the verge of something big with Broyld? I wasn't expecting anything from him last year. And I wasn't sure how much he would embrace the transition to slot/WR/HBack. But after yesterday's game, I think we are going to see some amazing things from AB this year. I think he is THIS CLOSE [] to putting it together in his head.
 
Who among us doesn't feel like we are right on the verge of something big with Broyld? I wasn't expecting anything from him last year. And I wasn't sure how much he would embrace the transition to slot/WR/HBack. But after yesterday's game, I think we are going to see some amazing things from AB this year. I think he is THIS CLOSE [] to putting it together in his head.


Broyld in space is an absolute nightmare matchup. It needs to be accomplished every 4 downs, without a doubt
 
He is bigger than Anquan Boldin. He should watch 4 hours a day of Boldin tapes.
 
He needs a minimum of 15 touches per game. Im not sure that with the right OC he couldnt be our QB. Last year we had 7 basic plays according to the players with reads off of each. My sense is that Ash can handle that. He would force the D to account for him on every snap. Really wish he would have had a shot
 
How many mistakes do you think Broyld made...blown plays, wrong cuts, the personal foul penalty, etc.?
If you're going to hitch your wagon to Ashton you have to live with the bonehead plays as well.
Are we ready to do that?
 
How many mistakes do you think Broyld made...blown plays, wrong cuts, the personal foul penalty, etc.?
If you're going to hitch your wagon to Ashton you have to live with the bonehead plays as well.
Are we ready to do that?

The personal foul penalty I can live with, he hit the guy when he was down but it wasn't that big a deal, most of those don't even get called. It was after a turnover can't fault him that bad. But truly he was our biggest playmaker the guy who you want to have the ball. Lets just hope his hands improve, he could've had a big play on the slant, but he made two guys miss on a third and ten and took it ten yards for a first down, he showed something.
 
The kid is a freak talent. A once in a five year talent. He played QB and led his team to the title game was a man against boys. I would love to see him in the zone read with our stable of backs. Everyteam would have to account for him each play. Simplify the O and let the talent take over. When you have talent like Ash you dont to over think things. Just give him the ball and let his talent take over. Shafer said the exact thing in a press conf. By playing him at QB you dont have to get him the ball he will have it every play. I dont know but something tells me we are blowing it with this kid
 
How many mistakes do you think Broyld made...blown plays, wrong cuts, the personal foul penalty, etc.?
If you're going to hitch your wagon to Ashton you have to live with the bonehead plays as well.
Are we ready to do that?

I don't know. How many mistakes did Allen make? How many mistakes did West make? I'm guessing there were enough mistakes to go around. My point was, I believe that from this game going forward, AB's line goes up and up.

As far as AB at QB, I'm just not sure about that. I don't know that I want him having to decide what needs to be done on every play. (Sort of the reverse of what someone said above.) To me you say, "AB, we're going to get you the ball. We're going to throw a couple of blocks. You do what you do." And he will.
 
When he has the ball in his hands it certainly is fun to watch and you get that feeling he's going to score or at the very least at ain't going to be easy taking him down. He's worked on his hands and you can see the improvement and you'd have to think he's been working a lot with Hunt and now that Allen is qb1 they have to get together and figure each other out...where AB breaks to in certain situations and where Allen wants him to be.
 
The coaches have AB in the right role. They know he is good. Pretty simple -- that part of our offense will be fine.

Need to figure some other things out, especially the role for Morris, and use of the WRs.
 
The coaches have AB in the right role. They know he is good. Pretty simple -- that part of our offense will be fine.

Need to figure some other things out, especially the role for Morris, and use of the WRs.

That's always a difficult position for a staff when you have a returning player the quality of Gulley and a heck of a talented kid in Morris right behind him.
 
People generally overstate the importance of hands. Give me a guy who can get open and do something and I'll live with frustrating drops.

Still think he should be at qb

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The kid is a freak talent. A once in a five year talent. He played QB and led his team to the title game was a man against boys. I would love to see him in the zone read with our stable of backs. Everyteam would have to account for him each play. Simplify the O and let the talent take over. When you have talent like Ash you dont to over think things. Just give him the ball and let his talent take over. Shafer said the exact thing in a press conf. By playing him at QB you dont have to get him the ball he will have it every play. I dont know but something tells me we are blowing it with this kid

Just stop, he's not a D-1 quarterback.

Zone read is a play, it's not an offense.

He's in the right role, and will be a significant contributor. He's very athletic, has good size, but he isn't all that fast.
 
People generally overstate the importance of hands. Give me a guy who can get open and do something and I'll live with frustrating drops.

Still think he should be at qb

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He isn't capable of playing QB. How many times do people have to say that!
 
I could care less about AB at QB. He is where he belongs. He does get open and he really has moves (the move in the flat yesterday was remarkable). Do we really know about his hands yet? I don't think so. Throw him the damn ball and lets see. He will not drop it any more than the other guys. I am betting that AB ran the correct route on that post and it would have been 6 if Allen hadn't thrown a corner. Allen was the one out-of-sync yesterday - not four different receivers.

We have been begging for playmakers for the last decade - we have one - GET HIM THE DAMN BALL.
P.S. That means more than 5 times a game.
 
One play I thought AB could have done better is a ball thrown a little short and he kept his hands in and waited on the ball instead of going after the ball harder. He;s a work in progress and Moore will get him there.
 
Sorry for this long post, but it seems that Broyld is at the center of two separate but interrelated issues being discussed in this thread, along with several others. The first is how to utilize a system to best take advantage of the available talent. The second is the role that Broyld should have for this team.

I would love to see him in the zone read with our stable of backs. Everyteam would have to account for him each play. Simplify the O and let the talent take over.

Zone read is a play, it's not an offense.

Actually, it's both. Though the zone read is just a single play (actually, a play concept since a seemingly unlimited number of plays can be designed using it), it can serve as the foundation for an entire system. Chip Kelly's offense is obviously a good example of this:

http://fishduck.com/2012/04/coach-chip-kelly-explains-the-oregon-spread-offense/

http://fishduck.com/the-chip-kelly-...nse/first-fish-tutorial-the-inside-zone-read/

Likewise, much of SU's offense last year revolved around a small set of "package plays." The foundation (in other words, the first option) of those plays, interestingly, was usually a zone read:

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-t...-plays-and-the-newest-form-of-option-football

An important point is that zone-read philosophies are built on simplicity. When discussing the inside zone, the "money play" in his zone-read system, Chip Kelly says, "If the offensive line can count to six, you have a shot to run this play." I would add that the QB must be able to read his key (the 6th man in the box according to Kelly) and make the correct decision. In essence, this "system" reduces what players have to learn to be successful.

According to Chris Brown's article, the same is true with the package plays SU ran last season. Marrone and Hackett reduced the number of complicated, NFL-styled passing routes and verbiage by "combining multiple concepts into a single play and then letting Nassib figure out on the fly whether to, say, throw a quick pass, throw a screen, hand off, or keep the ball himself — all on the same play." This allowed SU's players to have (far) fewer plays and play calls to learn, which resulted in a record-setting, no-huddle, up-tempo system--the KISS method in action.

Brown goes on to say, "Good offense has always been about deceptive simplicity." Ultimately, systems are only as good as the players in them. Kelly and Brown both acknowledge this. That said, if the objective on offense is to score points in the most effective way, what's more simple than keeping the ball in the best playmakers' hands as often as possible? The consensus on this board seems to be that Jerome, PTG, Morris, and Broyld are those offensive playmakers on this year's squad. The logic follows that offense should simply be designed to get them the ball as often as possible.

Yet, our fan base seems to be concerned (and rightfully so) that the play calling did not get Jerome or Broyld enough touches the other day. It was only one game, and the first for many of our key personnel (coaches and players) in their new roles, but it didn't appear that the new offense was "simple"--in communication or design--on Saturday. That might be why we seemed "out of sync" much of the game. It remains to be seen if the offense is simple enough to correct over the next few weeks. Let's hope so.


He isn't capable of playing QB. How many times do people have to say that!

In terms of Broyld's role, he may not be effective as a QB in the system we are running right now, which looked to be "pro-styled" (QB in the pocket, receivers running "option routes" based on reading coverages, etc.) on Saturday. Assuming what we saw Saturday will be the offense moving forward, Broyld's probably in the correct role. As such, the coaches need to find ways to get him the ball more consistently in space.

However, that doesn't mean Broyld couldn't be a QB in any system. By extension, it doesn't mean that the team is necessarily running the best offense for its players, though one game is too small a sample size to make any definite conclusions.

A QB must be able to read the defense, regardless of the system. However, zone-read philosophies simplify this process--the QB only reads one or two players instead of trying to identify entire coverages. While some of this is done pre-snap in terms of counting the players in the box, most reads really occur once the play starts, reducing how effective pre-snap disguised coverages and blitzes are.

That said, when evaluating a QB for a zone-read system, the first question to ask seems to be whether or not he could properly read his keys--the number of players in the box pre-snap and his backside read (usually the backside DE) once the play starts--to get the ball into the proper situations. Despite not being the speediest runner, Nassib often gained positive yardage with his legs last year based almost entirely on his accurate reads. Broyld definitely has the athletic gifts to thrive in the inside zone and outside zone plays of Kelly's system if he could make such reads. Hence, if the answer to the first question is "yes," one could argue that a zone-read system might be a better way to utilize Broyld's skills than the current system.

Moreover, in that case, our talented running backs and our offensive line would definitely benefit from defenses having to honestly play Broyld (or Allen or Hunt) as a threat to run. Remember that the QB is essentially an extra blocker in these zone-read systems. If the unblocked sixth defender in the box stays at home to defend the QB keeper, the offense gains an extra blocker on the play side. On the other hand, the lack of an effective QB running threat eliminates this numbers advantage, allowing the defense to play 11-on-10.

However, for a zone-read offense to be fully successful, the QB still needs to be able to make the reads and throws necessary for the counters--bubble screens, play-action passes, etc. Based on the idea that a defender can't take away two things at once, Nassib was able to hurt defenses last year by making good reads and (mostly) good throws. Can Broyld make these reads? Can he make these throws? Possibly, if his high-school highlight reel films are any indication.

Truthfully, those of us who have never watched him practice, especially at this level, can't really answer these questions either way. Hopefully, the coaches can.
 
I am betting that AB ran the correct route on that post and it would have been 6 if Allen hadn't thrown a corner. Allen was the one out-of-sync yesterday - not four different receivers.

We have been begging for playmakers for the last decade - we have one - GET HIM THE DAMN BALL.
P.S. That means more than 5 times a game.

Allen threw it OOB on that, a 30 yard rainbow to the vacated deep middle and it was 6.

He absolutely needs to get the ball. A LOT more.
 
Sorry for this long post, but it seems that Broyld is at the center of two separate but interrelated issues being discussed in this thread, along with several others. The first is how to utilize a system to best take advantage of the available talent. The second is the role that Broyld should have for this team.





Actually, it's both. Though the zone read is just a single play (actually, a play concept since a seemingly unlimited number of plays can be designed using it), it can serve as the foundation for an entire system. Chip Kelly's offense is obviously a good example of this:

http://fishduck.com/2012/04/coach-chip-kelly-explains-the-oregon-spread-offense/

http://fishduck.com/the-chip-kelly-...nse/first-fish-tutorial-the-inside-zone-read/

Likewise, much of SU's offense last year revolved around a small set of "package plays." The foundation (in other words, the first option) of those plays, interestingly, was usually a zone read:

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-t...-plays-and-the-newest-form-of-option-football

An important point is that zone-read philosophies are built on simplicity. When discussing the inside zone, the "money play" in his zone-read system, Chip Kelly says, "If the offensive line can count to six, you have a shot to run this play." I would add that the QB must be able to read his key (the 6th man in the box according to Kelly) and make the correct decision. In essence, this "system" reduces what players have to learn to be successful.

According to Chris Brown's article, the same is true with the package plays SU ran last season. Marrone and Hackett reduced the number of complicated, NFL-styled passing routes and verbiage by "combining multiple concepts into a single play and then letting Nassib figure out on the fly whether to, say, throw a quick pass, throw a screen, hand off, or keep the ball himself — all on the same play." This allowed SU's players to have (far) fewer plays and play calls to learn, which resulted in a record-setting, no-huddle, up-tempo system--the KISS method in action.

Brown goes on to say, "Good offense has always been about deceptive simplicity." Ultimately, systems are only as good as the players in them. Kelly and Brown both acknowledge this. That said, if the objective on offense is to score points in the most effective way, what's more simple than keeping the ball in the best playmakers' hands as often as possible? The consensus on this board seems to be that Jerome, PTG, Morris, and Broyld are those offensive playmakers on this year's squad. The logic follows that offense should simply be designed to get them the ball as often as possible.

Yet, our fan base seems to be concerned (and rightfully so) that the play calling did not get Jerome or Broyld enough touches the other day. It was only one game, and the first for many of our key personnel (coaches and players) in their new roles, but it didn't appear that the new offense was "simple"--in communication or design--on Saturday. That might be why we seemed "out of sync" much of the game. It remains to be seen if the offense is simple enough to correct over the next few weeks. Let's hope so.




In terms of Broyld's role, he may not be effective as a QB in the system we are running right now, which looked to be "pro-styled" (QB in the pocket, receivers running "option routes" based on reading coverages, etc.) on Saturday. Assuming what we saw Saturday will be the offense moving forward, Broyld's probably in the correct role. As such, the coaches need to find ways to get him the ball more consistently in space.

However, that doesn't mean Broyld couldn't be a QB in any system. By extension, it doesn't mean that the team is necessarily running the best offense for its players, though one game is too small a sample size to make any definite conclusions.

A QB must be able to read the defense, regardless of the system. However, zone-read philosophies simplify this process--the QB only reads one or two players instead of trying to identify entire coverages. While some of this is done pre-snap in terms of counting the players in the box, most reads really occur once the play starts, reducing how effective pre-snap disguised coverages and blitzes are.

That said, when evaluating a QB for a zone-read system, the first question to ask seems to be whether or not he could properly read his keys--the number of players in the box pre-snap and his backside read (usually the backside DE) once the play starts--to get the ball into the proper situations. Despite not being the speediest runner, Nassib often gained positive yardage with his legs last year based almost entirely on his accurate reads. Broyld definitely has the athletic gifts to thrive in the inside zone and outside zone plays of Kelly's system if he could make such reads. Hence, if the answer to the first question is "yes," one could argue that a zone-read system might be a better way to utilize Broyld's skills than the current system.

Moreover, in that case, our talented running backs and our offensive line would definitely benefit from defenses having to honestly play Broyld (or Allen or Hunt) as a threat to run. Remember that the QB is essentially an extra blocker in these zone-read systems. If the unblocked sixth defender in the box stays at home to defend the QB keeper, the offense gains an extra blocker on the play side. On the other hand, the lack of an effective QB running threat eliminates this numbers advantage, allowing the defense to play 11-on-10.

However, for a zone-read offense to be fully successful, the QB still needs to be able to make the reads and throws necessary for the counters--bubble screens, play-action passes, etc. Based on the idea that a defender can't take away two things at once, Nassib was able to hurt defenses last year by making good reads and (mostly) good throws. Can Broyld make these reads? Can he make these throws? Possibly, if his high-school highlight reel films are any indication.

Truthfully, those of us who have never watched him practice, especially at this level, can't really answer these questions either way. Hopefully, the coaches can.
I'm bummed that we don't know what the offensive identity is.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2
 
I'm bummed that we don't know what the offensive identity is.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

I think we all are...largely because last year was the first in about a decade that we actually had an offensive identity. And a good one. So game 1 in 2013 feels like a huge step backwards. I still feel, however, that they will find it in short order.
 
Truthfully, those of us who have never watched him practice, especially at this level, can't really answer these questions either way. Hopefully, the coaches can.

True. But we do know this much. Two very different staffs have evaluated AB's ability to play QB and decided that could not, at least at this level. It is time to move on.
 
I would gladly live with Broyld, bonehead plays and all. I see highlights of Taj Boyd and think Broyld is just as gifted. The kid is an amazing talent that absolutely cannot be wasted on the bench. I understand why he never made it as a QB in the Hackett offense, but why can't we design a full package with Broyld at QB? He would be DEADLY under center in the red zone.

I'm not saying junk what we have and go with AB, but they must find a way to get this kid on the field as more than just a target.

Other teams have their most athletic players on the field. We can't find a home for ours. That's pathetic.
 
True. But we do know this much. Two very different staffs have evaluated AB's ability to play QB and decided that could not, at least at this level. It is time to move on.

I tend to agree with this point. It is damning that two coaching staffs have passed on him as a QB. If each staff gave him a real opportunity to show his wares and, ultimately, determined that he just wouldn't be capable, that speaks volumes. I don't know that they gave him this chance, but I would have to assume they did.

The one question I would ask is how each staff evaluated him: Was he evaluated purely on his fundamentals as a passer? As a QB for a pro-styled system? As a dual threat in a zone-read system? Based on some other system? In terms of Marrone and Hackett's assessment of him, Broyld wouldn't likely be ready as a freshman to run the "package plays" we ran last season, at least beyond the first and second options, much less the pro-styled offense they planned to run all spring and summer. However, we weren't running the package plays on Saturday. In fact, it's difficult to determine exactly what system we were running. I guess if I knew what our offensive identity is and will be this season, it would be easier for me to fully agree with the point that Broyld could never play QB. Nevertheless, smarter football minds than mine seem to think they have better options at the position.
 

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