Class of 2019 - C Qudus Wahab (VA) to Georgetown | Page 17 | Syracusefan.com

Class of 2019 C Qudus Wahab (VA) to Georgetown

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I’m not suggesting that the guards can’t coach up the centers however that’s just it they weren’t centers...just wondering from an optics standpoint if that’s hurting us
 
Orangefan1 said:
I’m not suggesting that the guards can’t coach up the centers however that’s just it they weren’t centers...just wondering from an optics standpoint if that’s hurting us
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I'm sure it is along with them never playing the position and teaching it/coaching them up. I'm sure they are good coaches but sometimes there are nuances regarding the position that they may struggle with.

Also, Jim seems to go with the skinny potential O shot blocker types for his D and hopes they develop into a guy that can help on O. Maybe that's a catch 22 because they can't recruit 5's that can score or he prefers it that way.
 
Orangefan1 said:
I’m not suggesting that the guards can’t coach up the centers however that’s just it they weren’t centers...just wondering from an optics standpoint if that’s hurting us
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Have we ever had a former Center as a coach? Bernie Fine coached some of the best centers at SU and he didn't play center.

How many former Centers are currently coaches in the ACC ? Wouldn't most NCAA basketball teams have this same problem if it was linked to not having a former center as an asst coach?

I believe we have had a run where we've had 5's that couldn't catch the ball or were playing on one leg. Chukwu and Sidibe are the latest. When we have a center who isn't nursing chronic injuries, can catch the ball, not bring it down to waist level, and make shots we will feed him the ball. Until then it will be their ability to anchor the zone that will get them minutes.
 
dasher said:
What were the optics with Bernie Fine. He was a team manager and not even a player?
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He had experience coaching the centers though and that was his role. Am I wrong in thinking that? I was just asking a question to see what others thought. Should we hire a coach who has more experience with centers?
 
Here is a list of the dumbest arguments on this board ...

#1) Syracuse doesn't recruit centers well ... Fab Melo, Arinze Onuaku, Rakeem Christmas, Rick Jackson. This is a really impressive list considering there are few people who are this big and this good at basketball. Coleman got hurt but was a McDonald's All American, and Sidibe is hurt but was very highly regarded by major programs. They still count as recruiting the best of the best. Out of the 350+ D1 schools you cant find 10 that consistently recruit better centers than we do. Its actually a strength of ours.

#2) SU doesn't develop centers well ... centers take longer to develop because they basically never play against anybody their own size until they get to D1, then they have to learn how to play all over again. Syracuse does a great job developing centers, you're just impatient.

#3) Syracuse hasn't developed big guys since Bernie Fine left ... Rakeem Christmas and Fab Melo made the two biggest jumps in productivity in Syracuse basketball history, they both came AFTER Bernie Fine left. Tyler Lydon was coached from a forward into a center who lead the NCAA tournament in blocked shots on the way to a final 4 run. Chukwu was gone from useless to arguably the biggest defensive force in the country. Sorry but this is factually incorrect.

#4) Syracuse shouldn't hire guards to coach our big guys ... Bernie Fine wasn't a big guy, you can't pine for the good old days of Bernie Fine and also lament having a guard coach our big guys now, it makes no sense. Also any coach worth his salt can coach any position. If any of our coaches were incapable of coaching one of only 5 positions that exits in basketball I wouldn't want them as a coach. Also, we are moving into a era of positionless basketball. Its all about improving skills now, and who is better at coaching skills than a former guard? The old big guys were not coached skills the in the same way that players today need. It would be like Dino Babers hiring an option QB like Marvin Graves to coach Dungey, Graves was great but what he knows doesn't translate into today's game.
 
Cusefan0307 said:
Yeah remember what people were saying about Fine with Forth and Watkins.
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I do. It's not as if Syracuse made its name with its great center play, but more so over the years, having excellent forwards and guards. Over the years, the 5 spot generally has been one of our weakest positions on the court.
 
General20 said:
Here is a list of the dumbest arguments on this board ...

#1) Syracuse doesn't recruit centers well ... Fab Melo, Arinze Onuaku, Rakeem Christmas, Rick Jackson. This is a really impressive list considering there are few people who are this big and this good at basketball. Coleman got hurt but was a McDonald's All American, and Sidibe is hurt but was very highly regarded by major programs. They still count as recruiting the best of the best. Out of the 350+ D1 schools you cant find 10 that consistently recruit better centers than we do. Its actually a strength of ours.

#2) SU doesn't develop centers well ... centers take longer to develop because they basically never play against anybody their own size until they get to D1, then they have to learn how to play all over again. Syracuse does a great job developing centers, you're just impatient.

#3) Syracuse hasn't developed big guys since Bernie Fine left ... Rakeem Christmas and Fab Melo made the two biggest jumps in productivity in Syracuse basketball history, they both came AFTER Bernie Fine left. Tyler Lydon was coached from a forward into a center who lead the NCAA tournament in blocked shots on the way to a final 4 run. Chukwu was gone from useless to arguably the biggest defensive force in the country. Sorry but this is factually incorrect.

#4) Syracuse shouldn't hire guards to coach our big guys ... Bernie Fine wasn't a big guy, you can't pine for the good old days of Bernie Fine and also lament having a guard coach our big guys now, it makes no sense. Also any coach worth his salt can coach any position. If any of our coaches were incapable of coaching one of only 5 positions that exits in basketball I wouldn't want them as a coach. Also, we are moving into a era of positionless basketball. Its all about improving skills now, and who is better at coaching skills than a former guard? The old big guys were not coached skills the in the same way that players today need. It would be like Dino Babers hiring an option QB like Marvin Graves to coach Dungey, Graves was great but what he knows doesn't translate into today's game.
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In regard to #3, both were Mickey D's. Christmas was great his senior year no doubt. But is that because prior to that year he was basically neglected on O and could've been more productive beforehand? Remember, that's the year SU decided to cut its losses and volunteer to miss the tourney (sanctions) as we were pretty poor, and if it wasn't for Christmas, that team may not have won "10 games!"

Fab Melo was overweight and out of shape his frosh season. He was solid his soph year (the games in which he was ellible for) but bolted to the NBA. So, not sure how much our coaching staff really developed him vs. Fab getting his act together. It's almost like saying, Calipari, is responsible for turning all those Mickey D guys he gets into NBA players.

And don't kid yourself, Lydon was put in the 5 spot out of pure necessity as our other 5 players were, let's just say incapable at this level. He had unique skill set, but was a stretch 4 all the way.
 
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orangecuse said:
In regard to #3, both were Mickey D's. Christmas was great his senior year no doubt. But is that because prior to that year he was basically neglected on O and could've been more productive beforehand? Remember, that's the year SU decided to cut its losses and volunteer to miss the tourney (sanctions) as we were pretty poor, and if it wasn't for Christmas, that team may not have won "10 games!"

Fab Melo was overweight and out of shape his frosh season. He was solid his soph year (the games in which he was ellible for) but bolted to the NBA. So, not sure how much our coaching staff really developed him vs. Fab getting his act together. It's almost like saying, Calipari, is responsible for turning all those Mickey D guys he gets into NBA players.

And don't kid yourself, Lydon was put in the 5 spot out of pure necessity as our other 5 players were, let's just say incapable at this level.
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You're saying the coaching staff played no part in turning two unproductive players into two all league players? Well, that's the first time I've heard that argument. How are you making such a determination? When does a coach get credit for a players improvement and when do they not? Your comparison to Calipari is ridiculous, his players are either good from day 1 or they never become good (and are usually off the roster by the next year) we are taking about players who, while highly recruited, were not good at first and improved dramatically over time. I don't see how the coaching staff doesn't deserve credit every time that happens.

And Lydon moved to center because of injury, not because our center was incapable. Coleman actually played pretty well that year, he just wasn't capable of playing long stretches due to bad knees.
 
General20 said:
Here is a list of the dumbest arguments on this board ...

#1) Syracuse doesn't recruit centers well ... Fab Melo, Arinze Onuaku, Rakeem Christmas, Rick Jackson. This is a really impressive list considering there are few people who are this big and this good at basketball. Coleman got hurt but was a McDonald's All American, and Sidibe is hurt but was very highly regarded by major programs. They still count as recruiting the best of the best. Out of the 350+ D1 schools you cant find 10 that consistently recruit better centers than we do. Its actually a strength of ours.

#2) SU doesn't develop centers well ... centers take longer to develop because they basically never play against anybody their own size until they get to D1, then they have to learn how to play all over again. Syracuse does a great job developing centers, you're just impatient.

#3) Syracuse hasn't developed big guys since Bernie Fine left ... Rakeem Christmas and Fab Melo made the two biggest jumps in productivity in Syracuse basketball history, they both came AFTER Bernie Fine left. Tyler Lydon was coached from a forward into a center who lead the NCAA tournament in blocked shots on the way to a final 4 run. Chukwu was gone from useless to arguably the biggest defensive force in the country. Sorry but this is factually incorrect.

#4) Syracuse shouldn't hire guards to coach our big guys ... Bernie Fine wasn't a big guy, you can't pine for the good old days of Bernie Fine and also lament having a guard coach our big guys now, it makes no sense. Also any coach worth his salt can coach any position. If any of our coaches were incapable of coaching one of only 5 positions that exits in basketball I wouldn't want them as a coach. Also, we are moving into a era of positionless basketball. Its all about improving skills now, and who is better at coaching skills than a former guard? The old big guys were not coached skills the in the same way that players today need. It would be like Dino Babers hiring an option QB like Marvin Graves to coach Dungey, Graves was great but what he knows doesn't translate into today's game.
Expand...

Etan Thomas wasn't too shabby either, and neither was the Jeremy McNeil/Craig Forth tandem.
 
General20 said:
You're saying the coaching staff played no part in turning two unproductive players into two all league players? Well, that's the first time I've heard that argument. How are you making such a determination? When does a coach get credit for a players improvement and when do they not? Your comparison to Calipari is ridiculous, his players are either good from day 1 or they never become good (and are usually off the roster by the next year) we are taking about players who, while highly recruited, were not good at first and improved dramatically over time. I don't see how the coaching staff doesn't deserve credit every time that happens.

And Lydon moved to center because of injury, not because our center was incapable. Coleman actually played pretty well that year, he just wasn't capable of playing long stretches due to bad knees.
Expand...


General20 said:
Here is a list of the dumbest arguments on this board ...

#1) Syracuse doesn't recruit centers well ... Fab Melo, Arinze Onuaku, Rakeem Christmas, Rick Jackson. This is a really impressive list considering there are few people who are this big and this good at basketball. Coleman got hurt but was a McDonald's All American, and Sidibe is hurt but was very highly regarded by major programs. They still count as recruiting the best of the best. Out of the 350+ D1 schools you cant find 10 that consistently recruit better centers than we do. Its actually a strength of ours.

#2) SU doesn't develop centers well ... centers take longer to develop because they basically never play against anybody their own size until they get to D1, then they have to learn how to play all over again. Syracuse does a great job developing centers, you're just impatient.

#3) Syracuse hasn't developed big guys since Bernie Fine left ... Rakeem Christmas and Fab Melo made the two biggest jumps in productivity in Syracuse basketball history, they both came AFTER Bernie Fine left. Tyler Lydon was coached from a forward into a center who lead the NCAA tournament in blocked shots on the way to a final 4 run. Chukwu was gone from useless to arguably the biggest defensive force in the country. Sorry but this is factually incorrect.

#4) Syracuse shouldn't hire guards to coach our big guys ... Bernie Fine wasn't a big guy, you can't pine for the good old days of Bernie Fine and also lament having a guard coach our big guys now, it makes no sense. Also any coach worth his salt can coach any position. If any of our coaches were incapable of coaching one of only 5 positions that exits in basketball I wouldn't want them as a coach. Also, we are moving into a era of positionless basketball. Its all about improving skills now, and who is better at coaching skills than a former guard? The old big guys were not coached skills the in the same way that players today need. It would be like Dino Babers hiring an option QB like Marvin Graves to coach Dungey, Graves was great but what he knows doesn't translate into today's game.
Expand...


Was anyone arguing? Or just stating an opinion. Also Im pretty sure nobody said not to hire guards to coach the big guys...Hopkins did a decent job and he wasn't a center. I have to look back but I had asked a question about whether a center recruit looks at those things and decides to play somewhere else. However, you made some good points...
 
orangebabe said:
Etan Thomas wasn't too shabby either, and neither was the Jeremy McNeil/Craig Forth tandem.
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Such a great call on Etan. He was so raw when he got on the hill. They developed him into a really good NBA player who made millions.
 
Scott11 said:
Such a great call on Etan. He was so raw when he got on the hill. They developed him into a really good NBA player who made millions.
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True but Etan (Derrick) Thomas out of Booker T H.S. in Oklahoma was a Top 50 recruit. One could see the oozing potential and he wasn’t a beanpole. Great athlete. McNeil already was a banger early on. At this stage, we’re hoping guys who have frankly played enough ball by now to simply not mess up. Catch the ball. Dunk the ball. Don’t fall over.
 
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dasher said:
What were the optics with Bernie Fine. He was a team manager and not even a player?
Expand...
Not even that. But he could knock out crossword puzzles with the best of them.
 
General20 said:
You're saying the coaching staff played no part in turning two unproductive players into two all league players? Well, that's the first time I've heard that argument. How are you making such a determination? When does a coach get credit for a players improvement and when do they not? Your comparison to Calipari is ridiculous, his players are either good from day 1 or they never become good (and are usually off the roster by the next year) we are taking about players who, while highly recruited, were not good at first and improved dramatically over time. I don't see how the coaching staff doesn't deserve credit every time that happens.

And Lydon moved to center because of injury, not because our center was incapable. Coleman actually played pretty well that year, he just wasn't capable of playing long stretches due to bad knees.
Expand...

Nope, didn't say that. Of course the coaches get credit, but to what degree was the premise of my argument.

With Christmas, the argument I was attempting to make was that did he have more offensive skills than what we saw prior to this senior year because of the offense we ran? We didn't really attempt to utilize him much until we absolutely had to run the offense through him his senior year. Therefore, maybe if we did try going to him or involving him in the offense more as an underclassman, it wouldn't have appeared that senior year he came out of nowhere. And, because of same, giving the coaches too much credit.

Same point with Fab, the coaches get some credit, but how much? As I stated, Fab was overweight and out of shape is frosh season. He got his act together by changing his diet, a commitment to getting in shape, etc. He's ultimately the one who did this for himself, not the coaches. Apply the 'ol addage, you can lead a horse to water... Additionally, Fab wasn't here for even two full years. He was projected as a one and done or two and done all along. Furthermore, he was ineligible for periods of time as well, so the coaches weren't able to spend as much time developing him, etc. Again, the argument I was attempting to make was the degree of improvement attributed by the coaches.

We can agree to disagree on Coleman.

As requested by the admins, back to keeping this thread about QW.
 
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