Carmelo Anthony debate

[longislandcuse]

I'll start off by saying most Knick fans I have talked to realized this season went down the pipes when some idiot in the Knicks organization thought it was a good idea to align ourselves into a first round matchup with the Miami Heat. Also most Knick fans are not bashing Melo as they are, for the most part, very smart fans who realize injuries and the opponent decimated this team, not "Melo-ball".

However, the sports writers of NY do not see it this way and as they go out of their way to stir up journalistic buzz for ratings they are DESTROYING Melo in the press. Saying he doesnt seem capable of playing team ball, cant play with other stars, and is out of shape among others. Granted, most give a disclaimer saying all is not lost and Melo has the tools to make it work.

My question is: Is Melo to blame? Partially to blame? Absolved of blame due to injuries?

Im just going to look at Melo with the Knicks and last year against a better team in Boston we got swept when Chauncey went down Game 1 and Amare also went down. For the rest of that series Melo was passing the ball to Landry Fields and Jared Jeffries...Really!? Im sorry, Lebron couldnt will that team to victory over Boston last year. Now this year, I agree that Melo is partly to blame for the position this team got put into. They messed around all season and ended up 7th against Miami. Miami was not losing round 1, just wasnt going to happen. Now, again Amare goes down to injury, Lin injured and Shumpert injured. Melo is forced to play Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Battier, Chalmers, Miller etc with JR Smith and Steve Novak as his best surrounding cast? Tyson Chandler finally got rid of the flu Game 3 but he and Melo are nowhere near enough to beat Miami.

Where were these articles when Melo-ball made Woodson look like a genius and willed the Knicks into the playoffs, Player of the Month honors and 2nd best record in that time span? If I was Melo I would pull a Kobe when he got this treatment from LA analysts and just pass the ball the entire game, dont shoot and let our clearly inferior talent show what its made of when JR bricks 20 shots, Novak gets bottled up and the rest of the team falls on its collective face.

Does Melo deserve some blame, Yes...for the position we were put in, but to rip him for his play given the circumstance is to me, not right and a straight up vulture move circling the dead carcass of the Knicks throwing sensationalized stories out there for ratings.

But then again, Melo knew this would happen if things broke this way...next year is another year but Miami will still be there.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

I think the problem starts when people (NY and SU folks) want Carmelo to be Lebron. He was not, is not and will not ever be that player. Carmelo is a great scorer in the mold of Dominique Wilkins. A volume shooter who isn't all that interested in finding cutters and open teammates. If he can't get his 25 looks at the hoop every night, he's not going to be a guy who does other things to really help you win playoff games.

I'm not sure why, after 9 seasons, people don't realize what this man is. A fantastic scorer, great player.. just not ever going to be sitting at the "elite" player table. When you only make it out of the first round once in nine tries, that becomes a dubious distinction.

 

[DoctorBombay]

I think the majority of the criticism that's reflected in the NY media and by some on this forum, is focused primarily on the NEGATIVE, as opposed to anything else.
The Lebron vs Melo debate has long been settled, yet somehow it continues to be a reference point that's brought up over & over again.
Its almost like: "Well, since he's not Lebron, then he basically sucks".
That's a specious and limited argument, and blatantly unfair to Melo. His game is dissected, either subtly or blatantly, against one of the GOAT in LBJ, yet its always about what he CAN'T do.
Also, if someone tries to point out the positives about Melo's game, then here comes the "you can't compare him to Lebron card" once again.
We get it...he's not Lebron...and other than the fact that they're 2 different players, with 2 different skill sets, playing 2 different positions, that observation should be obvious.
Defending Melo is not dumping on Lebron, and vice-versa. Yet this no-win argument continues to get regurgitated as undoubtedly will be shown via this thread.
Finally, LICuse, we all know the NY media makes its bread & butter on criticism & negativity...they hate for a living.
Melo can shut them up, just for a little while, if he wins. (See; Manning, Eli)
Besides, he's a big boy & he WANTED to come home to NYC- I think he'll handle it just fine.

 

[Knicks411]

But then again, Melo knew this would happen if things broke this way...next year is another year but Miami will still be there.

I think this is what it comes down to. This is how the NY media operates, for better or worse (and I think it's for worse). Last month when Melo was playing great he was the greatest thing going, now when he's played bad in this playoff series he's a team killer, etc.

I doubt the Knicks were winning this series at full strength, but with the injuries, it's not even a chance.

Does Melo deserve some blame, Yes...for the position we were put in, but to rip him for his play given the circumstance is to me, not right and a straight up vulture move circling the dead carcass of the Knicks throwing sensationalized stories out there for
ratings.

I disagree with this a little. Melo has played really poorly in this series; I think it's fair to rip him for that. He's shooting 34%, if you're supposed to be a superstar 34% in the playoffs isn't gonna cut it. He also shot 38% last year against Boston. (He did have that heroic game 2 effort that came up just short because, as you mentioned, he went to Jared).

Melo is what he is; he's not as good as his biggest fans think he is, and he's not as bad as his biggest detractors say he is. When he is going great he looks incredible because he can score in a variety of ways and make it look effortless, but when he's going bad he's just bricking mid range jumper after mid range jumper. He's always going to be compared to Lebron because they came out in the same year, and that's not going to make him look good because Lebron is one of the most gifted players to ever play and Melo is merely a very good player.

I've probably been more anti Melo than most on this board, but it's not like I think he's a bad player. Is he good enough to build a NBA title team around if he is making the max salary? I dunno about that. Not with Amare eating up $18 million or whatever it is he's making.

 

[Ghost]

I disagree with this a little. Melo has played really poorly in this series; I think it's fair to rip him for that. He's shooting 34%, if you're supposed to be a superstar 34% in the playoffs isn't gonna cut it. He also shot 38% last year against Boston. (He did have that heroic game 2 effort that came up just short because, as you mentioned, he went to Jared).

I agree with this, I think people are a little too hard on him, but he hasn't performed well this series imo. He's had some good stretches, and going up against the Heat is TOUGH, but this is when you earn your rep. He needs to be a bit more consistent to get some of the detractors off his back. I figured they would get swept though, and he still has one more game to keep that from happening.

That being said this team as currently constructed is pretty flawed.

 

[longislandcuse]

I agree with this, I think people are a little too hard on him, but he hasn't performed well this series imo. He's had some good stretches, and going up against the Heat is TOUGH, but this is when you earn your rep. He needs to be a bit more consistent to get some of the detractors off his back. I figured they would get swept though, and he still has one more game to keep that from happening.

That being said this team as currently constructed is pretty flawed.

It is flawed but if there was no superteam Heat in the East wouldnt you give the Knicks as currently constructed a good shot to go to the Finals every year? Unfortunately if the Heat stay together you have to format your team to beat maybe the most talented team ever assembled in order to advance to the Finals. Celtics are old, Bulls have their issues and the rest arent really contenders. The Knicks have a talented core but I fear they will never be talented enough with Miami as the Eastern Conference gatekeepers.

 

[Ghost]

It is flawed but if there was no superteam Heat in the East wouldnt you give the Knicks as currently constructed a good shot to go to the Finals every year? Unfortunately if the Heat stay together you have to format your team to beat maybe the most talented team ever assembled in order to advance to the Finals. Celtics are old, Bulls have their issues and the rest arent really contenders. The Knicks have a talented core but I fear they will never be talented enough with Miami as the Eastern Conference gatekeepers.

I'd give them a fighter's chance, but I hate the guards. All of them. Hate may be a strong word, but I'm certainly not a fan.

 

[Knicks411]

It is flawed but if there was no superteam Heat in the East wouldnt you give the Knicks as currently constructed a good shot to go to the Finals every year? Unfortunately if the Heat stay together you have to format your team to beat maybe the most talented team ever assembled in order to advance to the Finals. Celtics are old, Bulls have their issues and the rest arent really contenders. The Knicks have a talented core but I fear they will never be talented enough with Miami as the Eastern Conference gatekeepers.

I know you aren't super high on the Bulls, but I think they are really good. If they have Rose, I think they are better than the Knicks by a pretty fair margin. You certainly are right that Miami is like the 800 pound elephant in the room or whatever; they loom over every team.

Actually, just thinking about an alternate universe where Lebron stays with Cleveland. Obviously the Cavs are going to contend for the finals every year. Miami with Wade and Bosh is going to be a threat, you have the Bulls and the Knicks as well and Boston might have another year or so left before they all get too old. Probably would result in some real playoff wars.

 

[longislandcuse]

I'd give them a fighter's chance, but I hate the guards. All of them. Hate may be a strong word, but I'm certainly not a fan.

I like Lin but am still skeptical. I like Shumpert but he needs to develop a better shot at the 2guard position and I think he will. The rest are terrible and probably wont be here next year in Bibby, Baron and TD (one can hope). Fields if resigned should be the backup small forward. Lin and Shump have a really high upside but are unproven and both went down with a bad injuries in their first real seasons.

 

[longislandcuse]

I know you aren't super high on the Bulls, but I think they are really good. If they have Rose, I think they are better than the Knicks by a pretty fair margin. You certainly are right that Miami is like the 800 pound elephant in the room or whatever; they loom over every team.

Actually, just thinking about an alternate universe where Lebron stays with Cleveland. Obviously the Cavs are going to contend for the finals every year. Miami with Wade and Bosh is going to be a threat, you have the Bulls and the Knicks as well and Boston might have another year or so left before they all get too old. Probably would result in some real playoff wars.

Im not crazy about the Bulls. I honestly think the Knicks have a decent chance at finishing in 2nd place next year. Most likely not because the Bulls are the kings of the regular season but in the playoffs I dont trust them.

 

[Knicks411]

Im not crazy about the Bulls. I honestly think the Knicks have a decent chance at finishing in 2nd place next year. Most likely not because the Bulls are the kings of the regular season but in the playoffs I dont trust them.

I know you aren't, but they have the best record in the NBA over the past 2 years. And unlike the Knicks, they actually win playoff games too.

 

[skurey]

Bulls are a bunch of regular season champs who can't elevate their game come playoff time

 

[Knicks411]

Bulls are a bunch of regular season champs who can't elevate their game come playoff time

They made the eastern finals last year, it's not like they lost in the first round or something.

 

[CuseTG2003]

They made the eastern finals last year, it's not like they lost in the first round or something.

Yeah, I think people severely underestimate the Bulls. I just moved to Chicago in November from New England and have watched the Bulls a lot. D-Rose missed almost half of the season, and the Bulls still finished with the best record in the East, beating Miami without D-Rose in a meaningful game along the way. Granted it was a shortened season, but 66 games is still a solid sample size. With D-Rose, they are definitely one of the elite teams in the NBA and figure to be for the foreseeable future. Thibodeau is a helluva coach, arguably the best defensive coach in the NBA, and they are very, very deep. CJ Watson and Taj Gibson come off the bench for the Bulls and would start for most NBA teams. The key is whether or not D-Rose can stay healthy. In my opinion, he has a chance to be one of the all-time greats. He's that good. I just worry his body is breaking down already, which would be tragic.

As for Carmelo, he is what he is: an elite scorer and very good, but flawed player. He's not someone you can build a championship team around. In my opinion, Melo's ceiling is Paul Pierce, and I hope he can figure out what it takes to win in the playoffs late in his career like Pierce (obviously with KJ and Ray Allen's help). The thing I love about Carmelo is when he's on, he looks as good as anyone who's ever played the game from an offensive standpoint. Unfortunately, he never seems to be on when it counts, the playoffs.

BTW, I'm in Brazil for work and doing my best to rep the 'Cuse down here in Sao Paulo. Ciao.

 

[PoppyHart]

I don't see the Knicks challenging Miami or Chicago anytime soon.

 

[skurey]

They made the eastern finals last year, it's not like they lost in the first round or something.

They beat the Pacers and the Hawks...

 

[NineOneSeven]

They beat the Pacers and the Hawks...

And?

 

[orangefan13]

As cusefans and Melo fans we shouldn't worry so much if Melo is to blame. I think its the wrong question.
We should worry more about melo finally getting the pieces that work.

I wrote it in another post that Melo is a tough guy to build a team around. He works predominately in the high post, isn't a great defender so he needs to have strong defenders around him, and hes going to get his offense how he always does. Some players can create their offense all over the floor thats just not Melos game. Consequently Amare has a game similar to his everything out of the mid/high post. IMO That just isn't going to cut it in the longrun as a championship contender without some more stars, but I could be wrong. Its all about efficiency.

In the end though its all about facts not blame. Blame is for teams not playing team ball or hustling hard. Blame is not for teams that are missing pieces. Think back to Melo and Denver making the western finals a few years back. They were a pretty well oiled machine. Nobody was blaming Melo then. I think Melo would have fit right in with the lakers or would do well with a tough guy in the low post as opposed to the high. We all wanted him in NY but there were places he could have done better. Look at Boston who blew the knicks out last year and Dallas. Both were great shooting teams that moved the ball very well. Look at the lakers they had great team chemisty the last 6 years. A tough couple of years for the knicks.

Melo has never had the players to play pass team ball with and be a title contender at the same time.

 

[longislandcuse]

And?

The Knicks would also beat those caliber teams. The Bulls have maxed out at their potential.

 

[Whitey23]

World B. Free

 

[44cuse]

Melo is what he is; he's not as good as his biggest fans think he is, and he's not as bad as his biggest detractors say he is. When he is going great he looks incredible because he can score in a variety of ways and make it look effortless, but when he's going bad he's just bricking mid range jumper after mid range jumper.

I think he is a little better than this. And I know I am taking your comment completely or at least to some degree out of context (apologies for that).

But I actually think Melo is closer to those who like him, than those who deride him. His ability to score is essentially unmatched in the game today. Yes Durant can fill it up, and yes LeBron can get to the rack, and Kevin Love can find any way to score...but Melo has it at another level. Post up...check. Back to the basket spin move from between three and the post...check. Elbow jumper...check. Transition...check. Three...check.

Melo gets the criticism he gets because he has been on the wrong teams. And that's not his fault with one exception: Melo cannot be the first star on your team.

I don't believe Melo is selfish. I believe he scores because he has to.
I don't believe Melo can't play defense. I've seen him do it.
I don't believe Melo is a great leader. He needs someone to lead him.
I don't believe Melo is a quitter. I've watched him nut up and destroy people.

Melo can be champion. I have no doubt in my mind. He just can't be the first option.

Think about the praise for Melo in the international game. It's not because the game is better suited for him. It's because he's most effective when he isn't number one.

44cuse

 

[DoctorBombay]

I think he is a little better than this. And I know I am taking your comment completely or at least to some degree out of context (apologies for that).

But I actually think Melo is closer to those who like him, than those who deride him. His ability to score is essentially unmatched in the game today. Yes Durant can fill it up, and yes LeBron can get to the rack, and Kevin Love can find any way to score...but Melo has it at another level. Post up...check. Back to the basket spin move from between three and the post...check. Elbow jumper...check. Transition...check. Three...check.

Melo gets the criticism he gets because he has been on the wrong teams. And that's not his fault with one exception: Melo cannot be the first star on your team.

I don't believe Melo is selfish. I believe he scores because he has to.
I don't believe Melo can't play defense. I've seen him do it.
I don't believe Melo is a great leader. He needs someone to lead him.
I don't believe Melo is a quitter. I've watched him nut up and destroy people.

Melo can be champion. I have no doubt in my mind. He just can't be the first option.

Think about the praise for Melo in the international game. It's not because the game is better suited for him. It's because he's most effective when he isn't number one.

44cuse

Interesting POV.
He might be like an A-Rod, or for an older generation a Bobby Bonilla, of the NBA.
Has all the tools but is probably most effective playing a secondary role.

 

[44cuse]

Interesting POV.
He might be like an A-Rod, or for an older generation a Bobby Bonilla, of the NBA.
Has all the tools but is probably most effective playing a secondary role.

Exactly. His game is complimentary. Not the lead dog. Melo is a devastating #2. Devastating.

44cuse

 

[Ghost]

I like Lin but am still skeptical. I like Shumpert but he needs to develop a better shot at the 2guard position and I think he will. The rest are terrible and probably wont be here next year in Bibby, Baron and TD (one can hope). Fields if resigned should be the backup small forward. Lin and Shump have a really high upside but are unproven and both went down with a bad injuries in their first real seasons.

Oh, forgot about Shumpert somehow. I like him - he's a good piece to have on that team. I think Lin had his 15 minutes, not sure he'll be much more than a marginal player going forward, but time will tell.

 

[orangepassion]

I think Melo can be a #1, but he needs a good complementary #2. I wonder if Prokhorov would take Amare to have something to sell to the fans and sign-and-trade Deron Williams. They can have Lin, too. 2 fair criticisms of Melo this series is not getting back on defense several times and not moving the ball. He was doing that at the end of the season, but not in this series. In fairness, who else on that team can you trust to create and hit their own shot? Only J.R. Smith when he's hot.