Carmelo's Woes

[Newhouser]

Westbrook is not meant to play with any players who aren't 100 percent subservient to him. He's incapable of modifying his game to the supporting cast he has. he's the poster child for why counting stats don't mean jack squat. Is he a good player? he is. Is he a great player...he has GREAT player attributes for sure. once in a while he puts it together and his numbers and the teams success are linked. but overall, i think you don't win with him..not championships.

up 3-2 vs golden state in Durant's last year there, once Clay Thompson started going crazy, westbrook reverted to total and complete hero ball and lost them the game

I agree and that is why they should never have maxed him. the best teams in the league no who to max and who not. There are maybe 5 max guys in the league, and IMHO he isn't one of them. All you Celtic fans who think you are a LBJ retirement dynasty in the making - be careful. Irving and Hayward aren't max guys either.

 

[CusefanATL]

I agree and that is why they should never have maxed him. the best teams in the league no who to max and who not. There are maybe 5 max guys in the league, and IMHO he isn't one of them. All you Celtic fans who think you are a LBJ retirement dynasty in the making - be careful. Irving and Hayward aren't max guys either.

That statement just isnt true. especially considering your very next sentence. The Celtics maxed out Al Horford. He's not even a top 20 player. Are you really telling me that they arent run well?

 

[Newhouser]

That statement just isnt true. especially considering your very next sentence. The Celtics maxed out Al Horford. He's not even a top 20 player. Are you really telling me that they arent run well?

I think Ainge has done a good job being patient with all his picks (of which they still have a ton). He was also great not to jump on the IT max deal drum beat. That said - maxing players like Al Horford and giving Hayward a 90 plus million dollar deal is not IMHO good business. I think Irving and Horford both have player options after next year, and Rozier is going to be expensive too. And they still haven't won since the Big 3. He's trying to line a run for the post LBJ era but I don't think you win without a legit MVP candidate and Hayward and Horford are not in my opinion.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Talk about criminally underrating Hayward. He was better than Paul George last year when healthy. Someone is going to max George. He might be a better all around player than Kyrie. If the Celtics had Hayward and Kyrie right now they might be the title favorite. My assumption is when Horford's contract is up he is going to be on the downside and they will give that money to Tatum or Brown. The Celtics are going to be good for a long time.

 

[Knicks411]

Al Horford is really really good.

 

[CusefanATL]

I think Ainge has done a good job being patient with all his picks (of which they still have a ton). He was also great not to jump on the IT max deal drum beat. That said - maxing players like Al Horford and giving Hayward a 90 plus million dollar deal is not IMHO good business. I think Irving and Horford both have player options after next year, and Rozier is going to be expensive too. And they still haven't won since the Big 3. He's trying to line a run for the post LBJ era but I don't think you win without a legit MVP candidate and Hayward and Horford are not in my opinion.

The C's 2 best players are out for the year. And they are in the drivers seat to make the Eastern Conference finals. Unless there is a miracle with Cleveland, The celtics will be the overwhelming favorite to win the East next year.

I hate Boston sports fans more than anything and hope all of their teams lose every possible game.

 

[Knicks411]

Talk about criminally underrating Hayward. he was better than Paul George last year when healthy. Someone is going to max George. He might be a better all around player than Kyrie. If the Celtics had Hayward and Kyrie right now they might be the title favorite. My assumption is when Horford's contract is up he is going to be on the downside and they will give that money to Tatum or Brown. The Celtics are going to be good for a long time.

That I can't see. Warriors still are a thing.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Al Horford is really really good.

He's certainly performing like a top 20 player in these playoffs.

 

[CusefanATL]

Al Horford is really really good.

He's a really good all around player.

He's not a top 10 player in the league. He shouldn't be a max contract guy. But he has to be because someone will give him a max deal. Hes a phenomenal piece to a team. But he will never be a legit #1 or #2 option on a championship team.

 

[UnknownOrange]

The C's 2 best players are out for the year. And they are in the drivers seat to make the Eastern Conference finals. Unless there is a miracle with Cleveland, The celtics will be the overwhelming favorite to win the East next year.

I hate Boston sports fans more than anything and hope all of their teams lose every possible game.

Unless LeBron went to Philly. Then goodbye overwhelming favorites lol (not saying I actually believe he'd go there but ... would make a ton of sense)

 

[CusefanATL]

That I can't see. Warriors still are a thing.

he said "might be the title favorite" - I think thats legit. They definitely would be the Eastern Conference favorite.

 

[Cusefan0307]

That I can't see. Warriors still are a thing.

I am probably over exaggerating due to Steven's being so good.

 

[Knicks411]

He's a really good all around player.

He's not a top 10 player in the league. He shouldn't be a max contract guy. But he has to be because someone will give him a max deal. Hes a phenomenal piece to a team. But he will never be a legit #1 or #2 option on a championship team.

I think it's a totally reasonable take that he is one of the two best players on the Celtics. He's probably the biggest reason they have the #1 defense in the league.

Agree he's not one of the ten best players in the league. BUt like, is Gordon Hayward obviously better than him?

 

[OrangeDW]

Talk about criminally underrating Hayward. he was better than Paul George last year when healthy. Someone is going to max George. He might be a better all around player than Kyrie. If the Celtics had Hayward and Kyrie right now they might be the title favorite. My assumption is when Horford's contract is up he is going to be on the downside and they will give that money to Tatum or Brown. The Celtics are going to be good for a long time.

While they may not have an elite, top 5 superstar player...on any given day Kyrie is capable of producing like one. He played just as well as Curry in the 2016 finals, if not better. As far as crunch time scoring, he’s as good as any of the superstars out there at that.

Hayward and Horford are still all stars. Tatum and Brown may become them. I’d say it’s likely. Rozier possibly might too. If Horford maintains his play, and the young 3 step it up a notch, and Kyrie and Hayward are healthy, I think that’s absolutely enough talent to win a title with.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I don't see the allure of Lebron going to Philly. Is he going to play off the ball while Simmon's handles it? Simmons certainly isn't built for that. If Lebron goes there they will lose Redick unless he takes a massive pay cut. It will change the entire construction of the team.

 

[UnknownOrange]

I don't see the allure of Lebron going to Philly. Is he going to play off the ball while Simmon's handles it? Simmons certainly isn't built for that. If Lebron goes there they will lose Redick unless he takes a massive pay cut. It will change the entire construction of the team.

Reddick is likely gone either way, he signed a 1 year deal.

I would think that if LeBron wants to come to your team you figure out a style that will fit best. Shoot first ask questions later

 

[Knicks411]

I don't see the allure of Lebron going to Philly. Is he going to play off the ball while Simmon's handles it? Simmons certainly isn't built for that. If Lebron goes there they will lose Redick unless he takes a massive pay cut. It will change the entire construction of the team.

I mean, I think that's a trade worth making? The allure is you're getting the guy who is still probably the best player on the planet. Agree the fit with Simmons isn't perfect, he's not a great shooter. But it's Lebron.

While they may not have an elite, top 5 superstar player...on any given day Kyrie is capable of producing like one. He played just as well as Curry in the 2016 finals, if not better. As far as crunch time scoring, he’s as good as any of the superstars out there at that.

Hayward and Horford are still all stars. Tatum and Brown may become them. I’d say it’s likely. Rozier possibly might too. If Horford maintains his play, and the young 3 step it up a notch, and Kyrie and Hayward are healthy, I think that’s absolutely enough talent to win a title with.

Also they probably have the best coach in the league. And they have the Kings pick next year!

 

[Cusefan0307]

Reddick is likely gone either way, he signed a 1 year deal.

I would think that if LeBron wants to come to your team you figure out a style that will fit best. Shoot first ask questions later

The 3 point shooting is what makes them dangerous. Lebron make's Simmons useless if you ask me. They are better off finding younger shooters and letting those guys develop. I don't think Lebron necessarily helps any current contender. I actually think he's best off going to San Antonio with Popovich.

EDIT-Lebron needs Philly more to win another title than Philly needs Lebron.

 

[OrangeDW]

I don't see the allure of Lebron going to Philly. Is he going to play off the ball while Simmon's handles it? Simmons certainly isn't built for that. If Lebron goes there they will lose Redick unless he takes a massive pay cut. It will change the entire construction of the team.

I feel like Paul George would be a good fit in Philly. Good 3 point shooter, good defender, can handle the ball and be a playmaker but can also pick his spots - not like a Simmons or LeBron where they are your primary playmaker.

 

[Knicks411]

I feel like Paul George would be a good fit in Philly. Good 3 point shooter, good defender, can handle the ball and be a playmaker but can also pick his spots - not like a Simmons or LeBron where they are your primary playmaker.

Do you know where else George would be a good fit? Indy!

The 3 point shooting is what makes them dangerous. Lebron make's Simmons useless if you ask me. They are better off finding younger shooters and letting those guys develop. I don't think Lebron necessarily helps any current contender. I actually think he's best off going to San Antonio with Popovich.

EDIT-Lebron needs Philly more to win another title than Philly needs Lebron.

They definitely need to continue to surround those guys with shooting, but Simmons is still super young and improving. And you can find shooting for cheap. If they got Lebron they could do what Houston does and stagger the minutes so they don't spend that much time on the court together, but always have one of them on the court together.

 

[Trueblue25]

It’s going to blow some minds what danny ainge receives in a deal shipping out Horford and Smart this off season.


I cannot wait.

 

[two3zone]

I don't see the allure of Lebron going to Philly. Is he going to play off the ball while Simmon's handles it? Simmons certainly isn't built for that. If Lebron goes there they will lose Redick unless he takes a massive pay cut. It will change the entire construction of the team.

LeBron has never been on a team and the team's gotten worse, each one has improved immensely and the team he leaves turns to garbage. He'd go to Philly and they'd be amazing, the passing talent on that team would be enough to throw defenses in fits.

 

[Newhouser]

It’s going to blow some minds what danny ainge receives in a deal shipping out Horford and Smart this off season.


I cannot wait.

I agree that they will trade him and his value will be high with his expiring contract. However, they were trying to figure out what to do with Horford back in February and nobody would take on his deal without Ainge giving up one of his picks. He has had a good run and is a good player - he is not a max guy, nor is Paul George nor is Hayward. My whole point on this wasn't that they won't get max deals its that teams who understand that their are maybe 5 or 6 guys in the league who deserve max deals are going to win in the long run.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I agree that they will trade him and his value will be high with his expiring contract. However, they were trying to figure out what to do with Horford back in February and nobody would take on his deal without Ainge giving up one of his picks. He has had a good run and is a good player - he is not a max guy, nor is Paul George nor is Hayward. My whole point on this wasn't that they won't get max deals its that teams who understand that their are maybe 5 or 6 guys in the league who deserve max deals are going to win in the long run.

So by that analysis the only guys that deserve Max deals are Lebron, Kawhi, Curry, and Durant.

That's not how it works.

 

[Waltdods]

I agree that they will trade him and his value will be high with his expiring contract. However, they were trying to figure out what to do with Horford back in February and nobody would take on his deal without Ainge giving up one of his picks. He has had a good run and is a good player - he is not a max guy, nor is Paul George nor is Hayward. My whole point on this wasn't that they won't get max deals its that teams who understand that their are maybe 5 or 6 guys in the league who deserve max deals are going to win in the long run.

This seems wrong. It is surprisingly difficult to figure out exactly who has a maximum contract given the complexities of the NBA rules, but below are the 20 highest-paid players in the NBA:

Of the 20, 16 played for playoff teams. Of the four that did not, one is retired (Bosh) and his team still made the playoffs, and one was hurt all year (Conley).

Each of the top 2 seeds in two conferences have two guys on this list: Houston (Harden, Paul), Toronto (Lowry, DeRozen), GSW (Curry, Durant), Boston (Hayward, Horford). Of those, Durant at 16 is the lowest paid, meaning the top 4 teams, representing 1/8 of the league, have 1/2 of the 16 highest paid players. The three seed in the West? Portland, which also had two guys on the list. (East three-seed Philly has no one on the list right now, but obviously will soon enough, and certainly isn't going to complain when Simmons and Embiid are max guys).

There are definitely some stinkers in here - Milsap, Griffin, Carmelo, Bosh. And there are a few who are probably somewhat overpaid. But having excellent, highly-paid players is what makes teams win. If anything, the max contract makes many of those guys more valuable than they would otherwise be by repressing their price.



1 Stephen Curry GSW $34,682,550 $37,457,154 $40,231,758 $43,006,362 $45,780,966 Bird Rights $201,158,790
2 LeBron James CLE $33,285,709 $35,607,968 Early Bird $33,285,709
3 Paul Millsap DEN $31,269,231 $29,730,769 $30,500,000 Cap space $61,000,000
4 Gordon Hayward BOS $29,727,900 $31,214,295 $32,700,690 $34,187,085 Cap space $93,642,885
5 Blake Griffin DET $29,512,900 $31,873,932 $34,234,964 $36,595,996 $38,957,028 Bird Rights $132,217,792
6 Kyle Lowry TOR $28,703,704 $31,000,000 $33,296,296 Bird Rights $93,000,000
7 Russell Westbrook OKC $28,530,608 $35,350,000 $38,178,000 $41,006,000 $43,848,000 Bird Rights $186,912,608
8 Mike Conley MEM $28,530,608 $30,521,115 $32,511,623 $34,504,132 Cap Space $113,989,729
9 James Harden HOU $28,299,399 $30,431,854 $37,800,000 $40,824,000 $43,848,000 Bird Rights $181,203,253
10 DeMar DeRozan TOR $27,739,975 $27,739,975 $27,739,975 $27,739,975 Cap Space $83,219,925
11 Al Horford BOS $27,734,405 $28,928,710 $30,123,015 Cap Space $56,663,115
12 Carmelo Anthony OKC $26,243,760 $27,928,140 Bird Rights $26,243,760
13 Damian Lillard POR $26,153,057 $27,977,689 $29,802,321 $31,626,953 1st Round Pick $115,560,020
14 Jrue Holiday NOP $25,686,667 $26,131,111 $26,131,111 $26,131,111 $27,020,000 Bird Rights $104,080,000
15 Chris Bosh MIA $25,289,390 $26,837,720 $52,127,110
16 Kevin Durant GSW $25,000,000 $26,250,000 Non-Bird Rights $25,000,000
17 Otto Porter WAS $24,773,250 $26,011,913 $27,250,576 $28,489,239 Bird Rights $78,035,739
18 Chris Paul HOU $24,599,495 Bird Rights $24,599,495
19 C.J. McCollum POR $23,962,573 $25,759,766 $27,556,959 $29,354,152 1st Round Pick $106,633,450
20 Bradley Beal WAS $23,775,506 $25,434,263 $27,093,019 $28,751,775 Cap Space $105,054,56