Change in recruiting Strategy?

JazzNC

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Actually no you didn't answer my question about how you define a top 20 class.

What hypocrisy? I did not say anything about top 100 or 100-200. You keep going back to the one link you posted as some type of single source of truth despite numerous corrections on how rankings are sourced.

The class I'm looking for is two fold. First it's about needs. You need impact guys and depth and to fill holes. Sometimes that's a big, sometimes that is a shooter sometimes it's a playmaker at guard. If a guy is ranked low but his tape is great and meets the need we have then that is who I want and what makes a good class. Ideally you want at least one top 30 guy if you can get him. Goodine is that type of talent so we already have success there.

Next we need another big and another PF based on expected attrition. Akok has been rising in the rankings but was much closer to the Fringe of your rankings you so cherish until more recently and I think has the exact tools and fit for our system. At guard since we have Goodine and will have several guys returning we most definitely need depth more than just a high ranking guy. I like we have targeted several like Girard, Guerrier etc and I think we are winning with any of those we have targeted based on fit. So it's not as simple as numbers here. We are already targeting talented guys that have a lot of potential and others who can bring something right
Away. That is the balance we need and a solid class. I don't see it as targeting based on rankings at all because what you get in output is the real value. This past years class really highlights that point.
You want me to define something that can't be defined. The only measurable (when the players are in high school) are the rankings.

If you want to talk about readjusting ratings afterwards that's different. The 2017 class overachieved. They didn't have a great regular season. They made a great run in a tournament they got lucky to make. Does that make them a top 20 class? I can't say. I think JB did one heck of a coaching job.

I agree that we should not recruit solely on ranking. Needs of the team are of course important. But to not value rankings at all is IMO unwise.

You guys want your cake and eat it too. You want to say you recruit with the big boys, but then when we miss and it's suggested to aim a tad lower you scoff at the idea.
 
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JazzNC

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Let’s consider this, Akok was not a highly ranked player a month ago. But our staff did identify him and targeted him. So, how about a little faith in the expertise of our staff instead of the websites?
Good post. The staff did a great job of identifying a guy before he blew up on the scene. I'm not stating the staff can't scout. They're great at identifying talent. They struggle with closing. Then what happens is many people rationalize that our plan c and d was as good as our plan a.
 

Orangezoo

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You want me to define something that can't be defined. The only measurable when the players are in high school are the rankings.

If you want to talk about readjusting ratings afterwards that's different. The 2017 class overachieved. They didn't have a great regular season. They made a great run in a tournament they got lucky to make. Does that make them a top 20 class? I can't say. I think JB did one heck of a coaching job.

I agree that we should not recruit solely on ranking. Needs of the team are of course important. But to not value rankings at all is IMO unwise.

You guys want your cake and eat it too. You want to say you recruit with the big boys, but then when it's suggested to aim a tad lower you scoff at the idea.
Really circular argument here. As for recruiting with the big boys I can't comment as that was never a point I have made. I liked our recruiting when we were after the Scoop and Rick Jackson's of the world paired with guys like K-Jo , CJ etc. Guys who were good recruits who fit well what we wanted to do.

As for rankings and valuing them do you mean the coaching staff or fans? I would doubt our coaches are spending hours waiting on recruiting rankings. It's about tape, seeing games and plugging into networks. Hence why you see names pop up and then the rankings go up later after we have been in t contact with them. Or why you see late additions and relative unknowns become a priority. There is a reason why some people write blogs and evaluate talent and others coach and actually discover it. Rankings are a fun tool for us as a fan along with the media outlets, Vegas etc. As a fan I'm sure why we should value them so much as you speak to it and again the coaches certainly aren't just following rankings to help them set their recruit board. Naturally talent is going to overlap with rankings most of the time but these numbers bounce around so much they become only partially reliable.
 

pfister1

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Who do you think we should we be recruiting?

We recruit the best players that fit our system and JB feels we have a shot with. There is no other answer.

We have never in our history regularly landed 5 stars, yet we have recruited them when JB thinks we have a shot. Sometimes we get one, but it’s not a regular thing.
 

JazzNC

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Really circular argument here. As for recruiting with the big boys I can't comment as that was never a point I have made. I liked our recruiting when we were after the Scoop and Rick Jackson's of the world paired with guys like K-Jo , CJ etc. Guys who were good recruits who fit well what we wanted to do.

As for rankings and valuing them do you mean the coaching staff or fans? I would doubt our coaches are spending hours waiting on recruiting rankings. It's about tape, seeing games and plugging into networks. Hence why you see names pop up and then the rankings go up later after we have been in t contact with them. Or why you see late additions and relative unknowns become a priority. There is a reason why some people write blogs and evaluate talent and others coach and actually discover it. Rankings are a fun tool for us as a fan along with the media outlets, Vegas etc. As a fan I'm sure why we should value them so much as you speak to it and again the coaches certainly aren't just following rankings to help them set their recruit board. Naturally talent is going to overlap with rankings most of the time but these numbers bounce around so much they become only partially reliable.
I get where you're coming from. I think there is some middle ground between what we are both saying.

I agree that rankings are not the end all be all. But it's the only measuring stick we have with high school guys. Of course the staff doesn't sit around watching the rankings. *But by your own admission talent and rankings are going to overlap much of the time.

Let's look at the 2017 guys we offered and didn't land. That list included:
Trevon Duval, Quade Green, Hamidou Diallo, Lonnie Walker, Ethan Thompson, Brandon Randolph, Hameir Wright, Jordan Tucker, Sidney Wilson, Mo Bamba, Billy Preston, Damir Cosby Roundtree, and Nick Richards.

If you're going to say that we were a better team with the 4 freshman we got over most of the guys on that list, that's (no offense) IMO crazy.
 
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Orangezoo

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I don't think the argument is circular. I do get where you're coming from. I think there is some middle ground between what we are both saying.

I agree that rankings are not the end all be all. But it's the only messenger stick we have with high school guys.

Let's look at the 2017 guys we offered and didn't land. That list included:
Trevon Duval, Quade Green, Hamidou Diallo, Lonnie Walker, Ethan Thompson, Brandon Randolph, Hameir Wright, Jordan Tucker, Sidney Wilson, Mo Bamba, Billy Preston, Damir Cosby Roundtree, and Nick Richards.

If you're going to say that we were a better team with the 4 freshman we got over most of the guys on that list, that's IMO overvaluing our class.
It goes back to the point of we just don't know along with also how many of those guys were a reality?

There are legit questions about what went down to pull quade to UK vs us. Otherwise UK offers something we don't and never will in terms of being a one and done destination school. Also there are ample questions about improprieties.

Duval and Tucker went Duke, Tucker was only legit option of those two and that one hurt. K is hard to beat and Tucker had throw signs he wanted a Duke offer long before going that direction. If Duke passed he was probably ours.

Billy Preston never played a minute so yeah we were much better than a guy who is now mixed up with the Adidas mess.

Richards stung but again same issue with UK. We aren't winning battles with kids who see one thing during the recruiting process but he probably could have helped but only really based on what happened to Sidibe's knee. A healthy Sidibe and that's a wash. Randolph- see Book Richardson. More improprieties there so did we have as much of a shot as it seemed we would? Hard to beat the cheaters.

Thompson wanted to play with his pops- not sure how that is a failure on our end. Wilson and Cosby Round tree I absolutely say we had better with our 4. Walker hurt and was a guy we went down the wire with. He also was possibly involved with the Adidas mess as per investigation into Miami. So maybe better we didn't get him all the same considering what it came with. All in all with the realities of the landscape it's hard not to like our class. Our two hardest misses were to schools possibly involved in the FBI ordeal. Others to UK and Duke who both have gone all in on the one and done sales pitch. That is not who we are and realistically we shouldn't be expected to win very many of those battles.
 

Actionthrill

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Also remember we got that great 5 star kid, I can’t think of his name right now, that decided to go to the g league. That’s a great get and it’s not the coaches fault he left. So you also need to add that into your equation. I think he was a top 10 kid.
 

JazzNC

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It goes back to the point of we just don't know along with also how many of those guys were a reality?

There are legit questions about what went down to pull quade to UK vs us. Otherwise UK offers something we don't and never will in terms of being a one and done destination school. Also there are ample questions about improprieties.

Duval and Tucker went Duke, Tucker was only legit option of those two and that one hurt. K is hard to beat and Tucker had throw signs he wanted a Duke offer long before going that direction. If Duke passed he was probably ours.

Billy Preston never played a minute so yeah we were much better than a guy who is now mixed up with the Adidas mess.

Richards stung but again same issue with UK. We aren't winning battles with kids who see one thing during the recruiting process but he probably could have helped but only really based on what happened to Sidibe's knee. A healthy Sidibe and that's a wash. Randolph- see Book Richardson. More improprieties there so did we have as much of a shot as it seemed we would? Hard to beat the cheaters.

Thompson wanted to play with his pops- not sure how that is a failure on our end. Wilson and Cosby Round tree I absolutely say we had better with our 4. Walker hurt and was a guy we went down the wire with. He also was possibly involved with the Adidas mess as per investigation into Miami. So maybe better we didn't get him all the same considering what it came with. All in all with the realities of the landscape it's hard not to like our class. Our two hardest misses were to schools possibly involved in the FBI ordeal. Others to UK and Duke who both have gone all in on the one and done sales pitch. That is not who we are and realistically we shouldn't be expected to win very many of those battles.
I get where you're coming from. But that's also my point... we're ALL speculating and providing our opinions. There is no way to know a lot of this stuff. I think the staff have a hard job trying to stay competitive without cheating.

Let me explain something...

I love SU basketball, and I appreciate JB. I can say I wish we could do better AND still have fondness/admiration for the program and staff.

I can desire a better recruiting class and still like the players we have. Saying i wish we had better doesn't negate the effort and growth of our current players.

We really don't have to be so black and white in our thinking. I don't bow down even when I'm a minority of one. That said I think you have made a reasonable attempt to debate in a civil manner. I appreciate that. I hope we land an elite class in 2019 because I'd love to see SU win another championship under JB. Time is running out.
 
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JazzNC

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Also remember we got that great 5 star kid, I can’t think of his name right now, that decided to go to the g league. That’s a great get and it’s not the coaches fault he left. So you also need to add that into your equation. I think he was a top 10 kid.
You're referring to Bazely, I assume? We are speaking of the 2017 class. But yes, he was a nice catch... until he wasn't.
 

50YRsofCuse

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I get where you're coming from. I think there is some middle ground between what we are both saying.

I agree that rankings are not the end all be all. But it's the only measuring stick we have with high school guys. Of course the staff doesn't sit around watching the rankings. *But by your own admission talent and rankings are going to overlap much of the time.

Let's look at the 2017 guys we offered and didn't land. That list included:
Trevon Duval, Quade Green, Hamidou Diallo, Lonnie Walker, Ethan Thompson, Brandon Randolph, Hameir Wright, Jordan Tucker, Sidney Wilson, Mo Bamba, Billy Preston, Damir Cosby Roundtree, and Nick Richards.

If you're going to say that we were a better team with the 4 freshman we got over most of the guys on that list, that's (no offense) IMO crazy.
Yes, we did because of those names you mentioned, 6 of the 14 were one and done, 2-4 of them did not excel in their freshman year and 1 transferred and one of the other three was strongly considering transferring and in fact was recruited over by his college.

Yes, we have 4 freshman of which 1 is a strong standout, 1 is a proven player, one who was injured, played hurt and has very good potential and the last one is mostly a complimentary player.

Yes, we have a better team with better potential than the other teams. What we also have is good team chemistry.

By the way, the coaching staff recruited potential and are developing very good players.
 

JazzNC

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Yes, we did because of those names you mentioned, 6 of the 14 were one and done, 2-4 of them did not excel in their freshman year and 1 transferred and one of the other three was strongly considering transferring and in fact was recruited over by his college.

Yes, we have 4 freshman of which 1 is a strong standout, 1 is a proven player, one who was injured, played hurt and has very good potential and the last one is mostly a complimentary player.

Yes, we have a better team with better potential than the other teams. What we also have is good team chemistry.

By the way, the coaching staff recruited potential and are developing very good players.
I respectfully disagree with your view. I think maybe you missed this part:

"I love SU basketball, and I appreciate JB. I can say I wish we could do better AND still have fondness/admiration for the program and staff.

I can desire a better recruiting class and still like the players we have. Saying i wish we had better doesn't negate the effort and growth of our current players.

We really don't have to be so black and white in our thinking. I don't bow down even when I'm a minority of one. I hope we land an elite class in 2019 because I'd love to see SU win another championship under JB. Time is running out."
 

50YRsofCuse

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I respectfully disagree with your view. I think maybe you missed this part:

"I love SU basketball, and I appreciate JB. I can say I wish we could do better AND still have fondness/admiration for the program and staff.

I can desire a better recruiting class and still like the players we have. Saying i wish we had better doesn't negate the effort and growth of our current players.

We really don't have to be so black and white in our thinking. I don't bow down even when I'm a minority of one. I hope we land an elite class in 2019 because I'd love to see SU win another championship under JB. Time is running out."
You can desire a better class, no problem with that. However, the names you mentioned were not what I consider the players to build upon.

You can complain about possibly missing out on a key player or two but you have to realize that the coaching staff is doing the best they can do. With the new rules on one and done and on no delay transfers, building a contender looks like it is a year to year activity and will cost someone money on eventual recruitment violations. Don’t believe that it will be Syracuse playing that type of recruiting.

With O’Shea, Marek, Sidibe, Washington plus Chaney, Braswell and Buddy, we have a solid nucleus to build on. Sure there will be some attrition, but you will have 5 or more good players to move forward into 2019. With Goodine, you have another good start. Until there is closure with the other recruits, you won’t know how well they are doing.

You can be concerned on how it may play out but believe that the staff is doing their best.
 

JazzNC

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You can desire a better class, no problem with that. However, the names you mentioned were not what I consider the players to build upon.

You can complain about possibly missing out on a key player or two but you have to realize that the coaching staff is doing the best they can do. With the new rules on one and done and on no delay transfers, building a contender looks like it is a year to year activity and will cost someone money on eventual recruitment violations. Don’t believe that it will be Syracuse playing that type of recruiting.

With O’Shea, Marek, Sidibe, Washington plus Chaney, Braswell and Buddy, we have a solid nucleus to build on. Sure there will be some attrition, but you will have 5 or more good players to move forward into 2019. With Goodine, you have another good start. Until there is closure with the other recruits, you won’t know how well they are doing.

You can be concerned on how it may play out but believe that the staff is doing their best.
I think everyone tries there best, including the staff. But you cannot convince me that the staff targeted our 2017 class over those other guys, nor do i agree that the staff didn't think they were guys to build around or they wouldn't have offered them. That's just you rationalizing that our plans c and d were better than our plan A. Happens a lot, and I don't buy it. I also stated that maybe we should lower our standards and try to recruit 4 star guys and upper level 3 star guys to avoid the one and dones and playing bridesmaids to the the blue bloods. I got flamed for that... was told we could bang with the big boys. Folks can't have it both ways.

At the end of the day, I don't get evaluated on my job by my efforts.
 
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Orangezoo

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I get where you're coming from. But that's also my point... we're ALL speculating and providing our opinions. There is no way to know a lot of this stuff. I think the staff have a hard job trying to stay competitive without cheating.

Let me explain something...

I love SU basketball, and I appreciate JB. I can say I wish we could do better AND still have fondness/admiration for the program and staff.

I can desire a better recruiting class and still like the players we have. Saying i wish we had better doesn't negate the effort and growth of our current players.

We really don't have to be so black and white in our thinking. I don't bow down even when I'm a minority of one. That said I think you have made a reasonable attempt to debate in a civil manner. I appreciate that. I hope we land an elite class in 2019 because I'd love to see SU win another championship under JB. Time is running out.
Jazz , you are not a victim here sheesh. Civil discourse is all this ever was from everyone who has engaged. Also plenty others would like to see a better end product. I think you are in for a pleasant surprise this year. We will get back to the top echelon of the ACC before all is said and done. The one thing I think you do need to take into account is how difficult the recruiting landscape has become. Expectations have to take into account the way the blue bloods are crowding the one and done market and how the conference shifts have brought about even more competition at the top. It's forced our hand and how we need to see things from a more realistic viewpoint as fans.

Enjoy your Friday sir!
 

JazzNC

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Jazz , you are not a victim here sheesh. Civil discourse is all this ever was from everyone who has engaged. Also plenty others would like to see a better end product. I think you are in for a pleasant surprise this year. We will get back to the top echelon of the ACC before all is said and done. The one thing I think you do need to take into account is how difficult the recruiting landscape has become. Expectations have to take into account the way the blue bloods are crowding the one and done market and how the conference shifts have brought about even more competition at the top. It's forced our hand and how we need to see things from a more realistic viewpoint as fans.

Enjoy your Friday sir!
I never said I was a victim. Never will be either. I agree it's been civil the entire time. I do realize the college recruiting landscape has changed. I think the staff tries. But stating that SU standards should be a top 20 class is not a crime nor should it be unrealistic. And it's funny because "insiders" have said we will come away with a top 20 class too. It's only an issue if I expect it, and the staff can't (for whatever reason) deliver. Then the rationalizing starts. I won't be pigeonholed into being a negative fan for having expectations of a recruiting class that's in the upper echelon of the ACC, and above the likes of a Providence and UConn. I also expect that we should usually beat out the likes of Alabama, Missouri, Florida St, Xavier, Western Kentucky, Stanford, Va Tech, Texas A&M, Creighton, Illinois, Iowa St, Auburn, Colorado, Arkansas, Arizona St, Ole Miss, LSU, Butler, TCU, Georgia, and Wake Forest most of the time. Yet ALL had a higher rated recruiting class than we did in the link I provided for 2017. AND yes, I know that rankings don't mean everything... but they do mean something.


Thank you for your insights. I hope you have a nice Friday too. I think 2018 should be a lot of fun. I too expect a nice ride.
 
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Cusefan0307

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In what world were Marek and Oshae ranked 100-200?

A site I can't name here had Oshae ranked 52nd and Marek ranked 72.

ESPN also had Oshae graded at 84 and 4 stars which would have put his ranking right around 75. Rivals also had Oshae as a 4 star. Neither site scouted Marek at all.

Their composite ranking was low because the other sites didn't scout them as they were out of the country and therefore they weren't ranked.
 

JazzNC

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In what world were Marek and Oshae ranked 100-200?

A site I can't name here had Oshae ranked 52nd and Marek ranked 72.

ESPN also had Oshae graded at 84 and 4 stars which would have put his ranking right around 75. Rivals also had Oshae as a 4 star. Neither site scouted Marek at all.

Their composite ranking was low because the other sites didn't scout them as they were out of the country and therefore they weren't ranked.
Here we go again. I understand all that. I've posted my response to it. They were the 45th ranked class according to USA Today and 38th on 2 4 7. I can't provide numbers that do not exist. Are they a perfect representation of every recruits worth? No. BUT, by and large rankings do correlate to talent most of the time.

I'm not bashing that 2017 class. The verdict is still out on them. I'm hoping we an do better in the future so that JB and company can go out on top. I think we're capable of we can bring in a really good group in 2019. Fingers crossed.
 

Cusefan0307

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Here we go again. I understand all that. I've posted my response to it. They were the 45th ranked class according to USA Today and 38th on 2 4 7. I can't provide numbers that do not exist. Are they a perfect representation of every recruits worth? No. BUT, by and large rankings do correlate to talent most of the time.

I'm not bashing that 2017 class. The verdict is still out on them. I'm hoping we an do better in the future so that JB and company can go out on top. I think we're capable of we can bring in a really good group in 2019. Fingers crossed.

I'm not talking about the class. I am talking about the player rankings. It's false that Marek and Brissett were ranked in the top 100 on and would have been on ESPN.
 

JazzNC

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I'm not talking about the class. I am talking about the player rankings. It's false that Marek and Brissett were ranked in the top 100 on and would have been on ESPN.
That's speculation and unprovable. I was talking about class rankings which are based on player rankings.
 

Cusefan0307

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That's speculation and unprovable. I was talking about class rankings which are based on player rankings.
It's provable. I looked at Marek and Oshaes ranking on this morning and I looked at Oshae's grade on ESPN. It was 84. Everyone ranked 84 on ESPN was ranked 70-85.
 

JazzNC

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It's provable. I looked at Marek and Oshaes ranking on this morning and I looked at Oshae's grade on ESPN. It was 84. Everyone ranked 84 on ESPN was ranked 70-85.
I'm not going to go round and round with you. The 2017 class is nice. I've not bashed them one time in this entire thread. The players were ranked in the 100-200 range on 2 4 7. I don't cherry pick sites that support my claims. ESPN did have them ranked higher.

To to summarize...the 2017 class was nice. I The verdict is still out on them. They may very well prove to be a top 20 class. Your thinking is very black and white, however. I can like the 2017 class and still want to do better in 2019. That shouldn't translate to they stink, SU stinks and JB can't recruit. That's what you all try to do to me all the time. That's not what I think.
 

Cusefan0307

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I'm not going to go round and round with you. The 2017 class is nice. I've not bashed them one time in this entire thread. The players were ranked in the 100-200 range on 2 4 7. I don't cherry pick sites that support my claims. ESPN did have them ranked higher.

To to summarize...the 2017 class was nice. I The verdict is still out on them. They may very well prove to be a top 20 class. Your thinking is very black and white, however. I can like the 2017 class and still want to do better in 2019. That shouldn't translate to they stink, SU stinks and JB can't recruit. That's what you all try to do to me all the time. That's not what I think.
Because you're wrong.

You are looking at their composite ranking, which is low because Marek literally was not scouted by anyone, but and Oshae was not ranked by anyone but therefore those rankings are lumped into their composite.

I am not cherry picking anything. You can't say someone was ranked 100-200 when they literally were not scouted by certain services and definately had them in the top 100.

I did not say you were bashing JB and it's fine to say you want a better class, but teams aren't winning titles with one and dones much lately.
 

JazzNC

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Because you're wrong.

You are looking at their composite ranking, which is low because Marek literally was not scouted by anyone, but and Oshae was not ranked by anyone but therefore those rankings are lumped into their composite.

I am not cherry picking anything. You can't say someone was ranked 100-200 when they literally were not scouted by certain services and definately had them in the top 100.

I did not say you were bashing JB and it's fine to say you want a better class, but teams aren't winning titles with one and dones much lately.
I agree that one and dones don't often win championships. I agree that ESPN had the players rated higher. I'm not the one that even brought up the 2017 class. Someone else did.

But consider this...

Our 2018 class is rated 41st on 2 4 7.
Our 2017 class was rated 38th on 2 4 7.
Our 2016 class was rated 18th on 2 4 7 and two of the three are gone (Moyer and Thompson).

Our 2015 class was ***8th and included Malachai, Lydon and Frank H. That class took us to a Final Four.

If we want to return to the Final Four we need to do better. IMO classes in the 30's and 40's won't do it. That's not "wrong."
 

SoBeCuse

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Everybody has valid points. Marek and others were afterthoughts and not part of the plan no matter what anybody says.

Teams aren’t necessarily winning titles with one and dones but they are getting you into a great position heading into the Tourney with very good regular season. No bubble business.

It’s fair to say we have trouble closing. Definitely the staff is great at identifying talent such as getting on Anthony Davis early on. We are unique also because of the zone. We have to make sure recruits are down with playing it. Some aren’t when push comes to shove even if they were early on in the process. Regardless or not if it makes a difference on the next level; there are forces working against us in that regard. The offensive system is not much of structure. It’s a free wheeling ISO-driven scheme which is attractive to many (get the ball and go!) but we need those kinds of players tailored for it. Guys who can dribble especially. It’s paramount to get guys like Whitney/Guerrier if we are going to expect to actually rely on offense for a change to score some points these days and especially in March.
 
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