Change in recruiting Strategy?

[JazzNC]

Taken out of the Joe Girard thread, as (appropriately) requested:

We absolutely should be able to consistently compete in recruiting battles with just about everyone outside of Duke and Kentucky. I agree that Nova has a nice model of success. I did a side by side comparison of our recruiting with them and it resulted in some interesting findings.



SU In 2013:

Ennis #23 4 star (NBA)

BJ #89 4 star (transferred)

Ron Patterson #175 3 star (bust)

Tyler Roberson #41 4 star (4 yr, no NBA)

Chino #180 3 star (transferred)



Nova In 2013:

Kris Jenkins #76 4 star (NBA)

Josh Hart #79 4 star (NBA)

Daryl Reynolds #358 2 star



SU in 2014

Chris McCullough #21 5* (NBA)

Kaleb Joseph #48 4 star (dud)



Nova in 2014

Phil Booth #75 4 star (returning)

Mikal Bridges #81 4 star (NBA)



SU in 2015

Malachi #34 4 star (NBA)

Lydon #72 4 star (NBA)

Frank #79 4 star (returning)



Nova in 2015

Donte Divenchenzo #124 4 star (NBA)

Jalen Brunson #22 5 star (NBA)

Tim Delaney #186 3 star



SU in 2016

Tyus Battle #34 4 star

Moyer #66 4 star (transferred)

Taurean Thompson #74 4 star (transferred)



Nova in 2016

Omari Spellman #20 5 star (NBA)

Dylan Painter #136 3 star



SU in 2017

Dolejaz #111 4 star

Sidibe #190 3 star

Washington #289 3 star

Brissett #137 3/4 stars (underrated)



Nova in 2017

Jermaine Samuels #46 4 star

D Cosby Rountree #97 4 star

Collin Gillepsie #200 3 star



After viewing this data a few things jump out:

1. Our player rankings have been close to that of Nova (I stand corrected on this).

2. Nova's 4 star guys they have had more success in the NBA, and have brought them 2 championships.

3. We have had six 3 and 4 star guys either be a total bust or transfer out in the last 5 years. That's not happening at Nova.



Questions:

1. Since we are recruiting at a similar pace, why are their recruits staying at Nova, while many of ours are leaving? Are our recruits unhappy at SU and if so why?

2. Why are their recruits fairing better in their pro careers than ours and why do we have so many busts? Are we not scouting as well as we thought we were?

3. Is the ACC helping or hindering our recruiting efforts?

4. What can we do to improve?

 

[Cusefan0307]

How can you draw that they have had more success in the NBA. Josh Hart is the only one of their guys receiving time.

Interesting that you started this in 2013...

 

[JazzNC]

How can you draw that they have had more success in the NBA. Josh Hart is the only one of their guys receiving time.

Interesting that you started this in 2013...

My going back to 2013 dates back to the success of Nova (and the classes which led to their championships). It also keeps it current. If you want to also state that it was during sanctions, that's fair. But we aren't on sanctions anymore, so we should do better this year.

Success in the NBA may be premature to evaluate. But they're getting there at a better clip as well without all of the transfers and misses that we've had. I'd just like to analyze it, and find a way to improve it. Simmer simmer.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Kris Jenkins got as much NBA run as Tyler Roberson. Summer league.

 

[JazzNC]

Kris Jenkins got as much NBA run as Tyler Roberson. Summer league.

That's nice, but it dodges the questions.

 

[Cusefan0307]

That's nice, but it dodges the questions.

Considering the sanctions we've recruited pretty well and won 7 tournament games during that time.

Can we recruit better? Sure. JB is more involved and not a lame duck anymore.

My issues with fans are they are looking at the micro and not the macro.

Also people blaming Gerry for everything are dumb. It's not like Hopkins was rolling in 5 stars before he left

The last two impact guys he signed were Lydon and Mali.

 

[JazzNC]

Considering the sanctions we've recruited pretty well and won 7 tournament games during that time.

Can we recruit better? Sure. JB is more involved and not a lame duck anymore.

My issues with fans are they are looking at the micro and not the macro.

Also people blaming Gerry for everything are dumb. It's not like Hopkins was rolling in 5 stars before he left

The last two impact guys he signed were Lydon and Mali.

I think in light of the sanctions we did fairly well too. But there are issues to examine. Some of top guys we're landing aren't panning out, and some are transferring out.

Now that we're off sanctions we, as kcsu stated, should be able to do better. As far as coaching (especially at tournament time) few are better than JB.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I think in light of the sanctions we did fairly well too. But there are issues to examine. Some of top guys we're landing aren't panning out, and some are transferring out.

Now that we're off sanctions we, as kcsu stated, should be able to do better. As far as coaching (especially at tournament time) few are better than JB.

KCSU has blamed everything on McNamara his last 1500 posts and thinks the guys Gerry has relationships with should be recruited by someone else while continuing to ignore questions people give him.

He blames Gerry for losing a recruiting battle against Calipari.

I have serious issues with his logic.

 

[JazzNC]

KCSU has blamed everything on McNamara his last 1500 posts and thinks the guys Gerry has relationships with should be recruited by someone else while continuing to ignore questions people give him.

He blames Gerry for losing a recruiting battle against Calipari.

I have serious issues with his logic.

But you're not responding to him, you are responding to me. I've gone on record saying that I think JB is a better coach than Cal, and even got flamed for that too. In defense of kcsu (because i do see both sides here) folks here are like guys that get a job evaluation that is amazing but can't get past that one "area for growth" section. Gmac and the entire staff IMO can do better recruiting. That doesn't make them bums, it makes them human. JB is a legend, and nothing can take that away.

 

[Cusefan0307]

But you're not responding to him, you are responding to me. I've gone on record saying that I think JB is a better coach than Cal, and even got flamed for that too. In defense of kcsu (because i do see both sides here) folks here are like guys that get a job evaluation that is amazing but can't get past that one "area for growth" section. Gmac and the entire staff IMO can do better recruiting. That doesn't make them bums, it makes them human. JB is a legend, and nothing can take that away.

Oh. I've responded to him in the Girard thread.

He continuously ignores me whenever I bring up Goodine.

 

[JazzNC]

Oh. I've responded to him in the Girard thread.

He continuously ignores me whenever I bring up Goodine.

But you give me crap too. I don't care because I understand where it comes from. KCSU has some valid points, as do you and me. There really can be common ground if we didn't get so defensive. Peace.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I posted once before about this. I heard Wright on Sirius with either Spatola or Packer a few weeks after the tournament ended. Obviously at the Combine the panel of guys spoke about the culture there and the well-rounded players coming out of there. That brings me back to Wright on Sirius. He tells every player who is coming into Villanova that (assuming they don’t have those abilities already) they will BE REQUIRED to be good at everything there and that they will be drilled to be good at everything...shooting, passing, handle, rebounding, defense, etc. Their guards stick their noses in there and board as well. When you watch those teams the past five years or so one can easily see this.

They are not worrying about zone fits as well. Thus they are generally avoiding the raw beanpoles. Obviously an advantage in skill there more often than not. Their system is what is driving this and is quite attractive with how the game is being played now. They have been Golden State the past few years but with athletes and physicality on the college level. If they get that recruit from AZ named Nico Mannion (another red head like DiVincenzo) they are going to be nasty again. He’s one of the best PG’s I’ve seen in 2019. Filthy.

 

[Cusefan0307]

But you give me crap too. I don't care because I understand where it comes from. KCSU has some valid points, as do you and me. There really can be common ground if we didn't get so defensive. Peace.

Who's getting defensive?

Not me. I just say it how I analyze it.

 

[JazzNC]

Who's getting defensive?

Not me. I just say it how I analyze it.

Defensiveness doesn't necessarily imply nastiness. It means wanting to "defend" your opinion. It's cool, I do it too. I have no issues with anyone's opinion so long as it's stated as such. This authoritative I'm right and you're wrong garbage that happens on a regular basis is comical though. And I dont back down to that nonsense. We can all do a better job of being less black and white.

 

[pfister1]

Taken out of the Joe Girard thread, as (appropriately) requested:

We absolutely should be able to consistently compete in recruiting battles with just about everyone outside of Duke and Kentucky. I agree that Nova has a nice model of success. I did a side by side comparison of our recruiting with them and it resulted in some interesting findings.



SU In 2013:

Ennis #23 4 star (NBA)

BJ #89 4 star (transferred)

Ron Patterson #175 3 star (bust)

Tyler Roberson #41 4 star (4 yr, no NBA)

Chino #180 3 star (transferred)



Nova In 2013:

Kris Jenkins #76 4 star (NBA)

Josh Hart #79 4 star (NBA)

Daryl Reynolds #358 2 star



SU in 2014

Chris McCullough #21 5* (NBA)

Kaleb Joseph #48 4 star (dud)



Nova in 2014

Phil Booth #75 4 star (returning)

Mikal Bridges #81 4 star (NBA)



SU in 2015

Malachi #34 4 star (NBA)

Lydon #72 4 star (NBA)

Frank #79 4 star (returning)



Nova in 2015

Donte Divenchenzo #124 4 star (NBA)

Jalen Brunson #22 5 star (NBA)

Tim Delaney #186 3 star



SU in 2016

Tyus Battle #34 4 star

Moyer #66 4 star (transferred)

Taurean Thompson #74 4 star (transferred)



Nova in 2016

Omari Spellman #20 5 star (NBA)

Dylan Painter #136 3 star



SU in 2017

Dolejaz #111 4 star

Sidibe #190 3 star

Washington #289 3 star

Brissett #137 3/4 stars (underrated)



Nova in 2017

Jermaine Samuels #46 4 star

D Cosby Rountree #97 4 star

Collin Gillepsie #200 3 star



After viewing this data a few things jump out:

1. Our player rankings have been close to that of Nova (I stand corrected on this).

2. Nova's 4 star guys they have had more success in the NBA, and have brought them 2 championships.

3. We have had six 3 and 4 star guys either be a total bust or transfer out in the last 5 years. That's not happening at Nova.



Questions:

1. Since we are recruiting at a similar pace, why are their recruits staying at Nova, while many of ours are leaving? Are our recruits unhappy at SU and if so why?

2. Why are their recruits fairing better in their pro careers than ours and why do we have so many busts? Are we not scouting as well as we thought we were?

3. Is the ACC helping or hindering our recruiting efforts?

4. What can we do to improve?

With regard to question #2 you are mixing topics. We don’t recruits guys based on what they might achieve in the NBA. If you assume that the level of recruit is similar it’s irrelevant who achieves more on the professional stage, only relevant what is achieved on the college level.

Some of our all time greats were largely busts in the NBA doesn’t make them any less a college player eg. Pearl, Thompson, Moten, Flynn, Harris, CJ, Wallace, Gbinije, Christmas.

Now I won’t argue that there is huge upside to having a player who has great success in the NBA, but that’s not what we are recruiting for.

#3. Recruiting in the ACC is different and probably more difficult for a number of reasons. Eg we are no longer the big fish, that clearly goes to UNC and Duke. Are away games are played in a different geography than when we were in the Big East and they were played in our recruiting areas.

But most of our recruiting while in the ACC has been done under the shadow of sanctions. I thinks it’s hard to know whether we will fare better than we have in the ACC, or whether what you’ve seen is what you’re going to get until we are a few years post sanctions so you have multiple years of no sanctions recruiting results to use in any evaluation.

 

[Orangezoo]

I don't think you can at all use success in the NBA as a good variable. It is such a crapshoot. Look at Kansas. They have had so many elite high draft picks that just couldn't cut it and then all the sudden the tide turned with how well the Morris brothers have been playing along with Wiggins and Embiid.

Flynn and MCW both got hammered by injuries that ended or have severely regressed their careers. Dion finally started to show out and then boom, he gets snake bitten with injuries. Ennis has played well but never got a good shot really. Some guys have had solid careers without being stars like Jason Hart, Etan Thomas, Warrick and Wesley Johnson. It's just so difficult to evaluate schools based on how the kids handle the next level.

Hopefully we see a good year this next year for Lydon, a healthy year for Dion and MCW, title for melo and more production from Wes. Then this current group can be part of the future generations of Cuse NBA players with Battle, Oshae and then Marek , Carey and maybe even Hughes too. Its a stretch they all make it but not unrealistic either.

 

[JazzNC]

With regard to question #2 you are mixing topics. We don’t recruits guys based on what they might achieve in the NBA. If you assume that the level of recruit is similar it’s irrelevant who achieves more on the professional stage, only relevant what is achieved on the college level.

Some of our all time greats were largely busts in the NBA doesn’t make them any less a college player eg. Pearl, Thompson, Moten, Flynn, Harris, CJ, Wallace, Gbinije, Christmas.

Now I won’t argue that there is huge upside to having a player who has great success in the NBA, but that’s not what we are recruiting for.

#3. Recruiting in the ACC is different and probably more difficult for a number of reasons. Eg we are no longer the big fish, that clearly goes to UNC and Duke. Are away games are played in a different geography than when we were in the Big East and they were played in our recruiting areas.

But most of our recruiting while in the ACC has been done under the shadow of sanctions. I thinks it’s hard to know whether we will fare better than we have in the ACC, or whether what you’ve seen is what you’re going to get until we are a few years post sanctions so you have multiple years of no sanctions recruiting results to use in any evaluation.

Reasonable response. You get credit for actually attempting to answer them too. Of course we don't recruit for NBA success. But Nova has had 2 championships during this time with arguably similar ranked players. How do you account for the misses in recruiting and all of the transfers? Are you expecting a top 20 class?

 

[pfister1]

Reasonable response. You get credit for actually attempting to answer them too. Of course we don't recruit for NBA success. But Nova has had 2 championships during this time with arguably similar ranked players. How do you account for the misses in recruiting and all of the transfers? Are you expecting a top 20 class?

Nova has had 2 championships. Clearly they've had more team success than we have over that period, KUDOs to them!!! I am jealous of the team success they have had, just like I was jealous of the team success that UConn had with 4 championships between 1999 and 2014.

With UConn I would say they recruited at a higher level than we did during that time frame. I can think of a number of players they won head to head against us. With Nova, I'm not ready to say that is the case. I think the pieces that they have recruited recently fit together much better than those that we recruited did.

In some respects I think the transfers were a function of the sanctions. When we had misses our roster wasn't deep enough to hold onto the misses, so they were moved along. Also JB's style is not to bring mediocre players along. Generally, you have an opportunity to contribute at the beginning of the year, but if things don't click JB shortens his rotation and your playing time is gone. I'm not sure that Jay Wright's coaching style is as unforgiving in that regard.

If BJ had stayed for four years, would he have been considered a miss, or would he have looked more like DNic or Rak...guys who had outstanding senior years after being up and downn prior to that. If Moyer had stayed four years, I think he would have been viewed as a contributor by the time he left.

Am I expecting a top 20 class?? I don't know how to answer that. I expect JB to bring in a strong class of kids, I don't really care whether they are a top 20 class or not. I hope we have a class that fills out our roster and includes some great players, both guys that can contribute immediately, if needed, and guys that might not contribute until down the road. I try not to get caught up in the rankings.

 

[JazzNC]

Nova has had 2 championships. Clearly they've had more team success than we have over that period, KUDOs to them!!! I am jealous of the team success they have had, just like I was jealous of the team success that UConn had with 4 championships between 1999 and 2014.

With UConn I would say they recruited at a higher level than we did during that time frame. I can think of a number of players they won head to head against us. With Nova, I'm not ready to say that is the case. I think the pieces that they have recruited recently fit together much better than those that we recruited did.

In some respects I think the transfers were a function of the sanctions. When we had misses our roster wasn't deep enough to hold onto the misses, so they were moved along. Also JB's style is not to bring mediocre players along. Generally, you have an opportunity to contribute at the beginning of the year, but if things don't click JB shortens his rotation and your playing time is gone. I'm not sure that Jay Wright's coaching style is as unforgiving in that regard.

If BJ had stayed for four years, would he have been considered a miss, or would he have looked more like DNic or Rak...guys who had outstanding senior years after being up and downn prior to that. If Moyer had stayed four years, I think he would have been viewed as a contributor by the time he left.

Am I expecting a top 20 class?? I don't know how to answer that. I expect JB to bring in a strong class of kids, I don't really care whether they are a top 20 class or not. I hope we have a class that fills out our roster and includes some great players, both guys that can contribute immediately, if needed, and guys that might not contribute until down the road. I try not to get caught up in the rankings.

Good post.

 

[longtimefan]

Reasonable response. You get credit for actually attempting to answer them too. Of course we don't recruit for NBA success. But Nova has had 2 championships during this time with arguably similar ranked players. How do you account for the misses in recruiting and all of the transfers? Are you expecting a top 20 class?

Nova is an interesting comparison. But not valid, in my opinion.

The only things we have in common are location (Northeast), and some limited overlap in recruiting.

The fact is, what Nova has done in the past 5 years is a total anomaly. So the fact that they've out-performed our team is no disgrace. They've out-performed everybody. Look at the programs that have had better recruiting in the recent past (cumulatively and year-by-year): Arizona, UCLA, Kansas, MSU, Indiana, Kentucky, Florida, Duke, UNC, etc. Villanova has outdone them all.

 

[JazzNC]

Nova is an interesting comparison. But not valid, in my opinion.

The only things we have in common are location (Northeast), and some limited overlap in recruiting.

The fact is, what Nova has done in the past 5 years is a total anomaly. So the fact that they've out-performed our team is no disgrace. They've out-performed everybody. Look at the programs that have had better recruiting in the recent past (cumulatively and year-by-year): Arizona, UCLA, Kansas, MSU, Indiana, Kentucky, Florida, Duke, UNC, etc. Villanova has outdone them all.

I respectfully disagree. I'd hardly call it an anomaly. I'd call it something that's worthy of examination and modeling. I don't think Nova fans would call it a fluke either, nor would Jay Wright. If we had accomplished what they did, and someone wrote it was an anomaly, and not the result of the incredible job of the staff they'd be flamed and tortured on this board.

 

[kcsu]

KCSU has blamed everything on McNamara his last 1500 posts and thinks the guys Gerry has relationships with should be recruited by someone else while continuing to ignore questions people give him.

He blames Gerry for losing a recruiting battle against Calipari.

I have serious issues with his logic.

Please let me clarify my position.
1: I do not believe that the eggs in one basket approach works anymore.
2: I believe that when Hop believed that he was going to be our next head coach he was an excellent recruiter.
3: JB was beyond ticked off that the Chancellor picked his retirement date.
4: JB never planned on retiring as planned.
5: Hop and JB had a very stressful year which had a negative effect on recruiting.
6: Sanctions hurt but nowhere near as much as the JB/Hop situation.
7: Gerry was prematurely elevated into a coaching and recruiting role.
8: The previous reasons for a lack of recruiting success no longer exist.
9: Gerry needs to win some A list recruiting battles or JB needs to replace him as our lead recruiter.
10: JB is exponentially better at coaching then recruiting.
11: We dont have anyone on our current staff capable of maintaining any degree of JBs success.
12: This will be our best regular season in years.

 

[Antiprodigy]

None of it is valid. Try comparing it to similar situations, otherwise it can't be valid. SU was under sanctions, allowed fewer coaches to recruit off campus (which most people on here either completely discount as a disadvantage or forget about, though it actually is a huge disadvantage) and down on the number of scholarships. That is not equivalent to a program with the full complement of scholarships and coaches recruiting.

Yet, JB did a great job of getting kids who were very comparable in terms of rankings. The reduced scholarships allowed for a much smaller margin for error in terms of how kids did, and forced JB to do something he doesn't do often (push kids out).

If you live a life of glass 3/4 empty as some people on this board are, or have an agenda against the current coaching staff, which there are a few of these types on this board, then you choose to ignore those facts ( and they are facts.)

Starting this year, feel free to compare (though, realistically, there should be a year or two cushion given). From this point on, you are truly comparing oranges to others, with equal opportunities.

Personally, I feel very confident that JB will (yet again) prove to be a superior recruiter, as well as a superior developer of talent.

 

[JazzNC]

None of it is valid. Try comparing it to similar situations, otherwise it can't be valid. SU was under sanctions, allowed fewer coaches to recruit off campus (which most people on here either completely discount as a disadvantage or forget about, though it actually is a huge disadvantage) and down on the number of scholarships. That is not equivalent to a program with the full complement of scholarships and coaches recruiting.

Yet, JB did a great job of getting kids who were very comparable in terms of rankings. The reduced scholarships allowed for a much smaller margin for error in terms of how kids did, and forced JB to do something he doesn't do often (push kids out).

If you live a life of glass 3/4 empty as some people on this board are, or have an agenda against the current coaching staff, which there are a few of these types on this board, then you choose to ignore those facts ( and they are facts.)

Starting this year, feel free to compare (though, realistically, there should be a year or two cushion given). From this point on, you are truly comparing oranges to others, with equal opportunities.

Personally, I feel very confident that JB will (yet again) prove to be a superior recruiter, as well as a superior developer of talent.

None of it is valid? Another black and white statement. I disagree.

As to your statement that I am negative or have an agenda against the staff, I say you either have very selective reading skills (see what you want to see), or you're truly paranoid. Apparently you've missed my posts about JB being a better coach than Calipari. You must have also missed my post about last season perhaps being JB's best ever. You must have also missed my posts about Oshae being great and underrated. I guess you also missed my post about losing Whitney to Kentucky as not being a big deal because I like Quincy better. You must have also missed my post about JB and the staff's ability to scout. You also missed my post about being optimistic about the upcoming season and that I think we have the potential to make the elite eight or better. For the record, if you go back, you'll see that I've not made any negative statements. I've posed questions, and posted some data and invited people to share their interpretation.

It seems to me that you are missing a lot of positive posts. Maybe it is not I who is negative? Maybe you just don't like my posts because I refuse to parrot back what you want to hear, and don't bow down to peer pressure/likes etc.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Please let me clarify my position.
1: I do not believe that the eggs in one basket approach works anymore.
2: I believe that when Hop believed that he was going to be our next head coach he was an excellent recruiter.
3: JB was beyond ticked off that the Chancellor picked his retirement date.
4: JB never planned on retiring as planned.
5: Hop and JB had a very stressful year which had a negative effect on recruiting.
6: Sanctions hurt but nowhere near as much as the JB/Hop situation.
7: Gerry was prematurely elevated into a coaching and recruiting role.
8: The previous reasons for a lack of recruiting success no longer exist.
9: Gerry needs to win some A list recruiting battles or JB needs to replace him as our lead recruiter.
10: JB is exponentially better at coaching then recruiting.
11: We dont have anyone on our current staff capable of maintaining any degree of JBs success.
12: This will be our best regular season in years.

And once again you ignore we signed Goodine. I’m not sure why you responded to me.