Class of 2021 David Shaw on Star Ratings

[Whitey23]

Q: Sticking with Northwestern – sort of. A week or so ago, Pat Fitzgerald derided the use of star rankings from recruiting services, saying he doesn't use them, doesn't focus on them, has no use for them. At Stanford, have you found any utility from recruiting services in identifying recruits or are you and the staff using an organic search for prospects without using that information?

A: This is something I learned with the Oakland Raiders, working for Al Davis and Jon Gruden – and that combination was a whole other topic, but it's fascinating, because their ideas were, let's take the guy that fits us. I don't care if a guy gets cut from someplace else as a free agent, we don't care if no one else wants to draft this guy. If he fits us, we want him. The same exact thing in Baltimore with (general manager) Ozzie Newsome. Is this guy a Raven or is he not a Raven? We don't care about anything else. And we've taken that same mentality here. Coach (Jim) Harbaugh would say, "Hey, is he a tough son of a gun? If he's not, then let's pass on him. We don't care if he's been offered by the entire country."

If we question his toughness, then we can't take him. I've continued that on here. The games are won by the players on the field. And they need to be mentally, physically and emotionally tough human beings in order to win a tight, close game against Oregon. To win a tight, close game against Arizona State. Those are tough, tough situations. The guys who don't fold are the guys who find a way to win.

Star ratings? Some of those star ratings hinge on a guy going to some stadium some place and wearing a headband and throwing the ball, running through cones. That's not football. Some of the star ratings come because he's on this great seven-on-seven team that won a championship. Seven-on-seven's not football. I want a kid that plays football, is a tough human being, is a good human being and has the chance to be on our team if they're academically sound as well.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...er-david-shaw-stanford-football-four/8406907/

 

[PhatOrange]

Perfect

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I get it. But, 4 and 5 star talent has a mysterious way of fitting on to good teams with all kinds of different schemes.

 

[rrlbees]

I get it. But, 4 and 5 star talent has a mysterious way of fitting on to good teams with all kinds of different schemes.

I look at that stuff as more for the fans than a college team. Funny how SU had subscriptions to the other sites we were at. 2 of them in fact for several years.

 

[PhatOrange]

I get it. But, 4 and 5 star talent has a mysterious way of fitting on to good teams with all kinds of different schemes.

he's not saying he wouldn't recruit those kids.

 

[Whitey23]

I get it. But, 4 and 5 star talent has a mysterious way of fitting on to good teams with all kinds of different schemes.

self fulfilling prophecy. best teams are able to get best players (in their eyes). Scouting networks then rank them high because of interest from best teams. rinse repeat

Time is a flat circle

 

[PhatOrange]

I look at that stuff as more for the fans than a college team. Funny how SU had subscriptions to the other sites we were at. 2 of them in fact for several years.

it'd be crazy not to have subscriptions for access to the premium message boards or to gloss over the recruit articles but i don't think they're deriving their recruiting board from the rvls 250.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

self fulfilling prophecy. best teams are able to get best players (in their eyes). Scouting networks then rank them high because of interest from best teams. rinse repeat

I think it's self-fulfilling prophecy more for URs become 2 stars and previously unvalued 2 stars become 3 stars than applies to the upper echelon talent. Those guys are what they are regardless of what school they're going to.

 

[rrlbees]

it'd be crazy not to have subscriptions for access to the premium message boards or to gloss over the recruit articles but i don't think they're deriving their recruiting board from the rvls 250.

Deriving their recruiting boards from the sites is a bit of an extreme statement.

 

[Sudano]

The star system is a recruiting website construct for the fans. Coaches don't think of recruits as having 5 stars or 3 stars. Its irrelevant to their evaluation process.

 

[anomander]

I look at that stuff as more for the fans than a college team. Funny how SU had subscriptions to the other sites we were at. 2 of them in fact for several years.

Most of the time the staff (or most like Cole Dial or White) would read interviews from kids we are recruiting just to check up on them and see what they are saying

I get it. But, 4 and 5 star talent has a mysterious way of fitting on to good teams with all kinds of different schemes.

the 4 and 5 star kids are the biggest, and fastest kids at their positions. those are the kids that usually stick out in a crowd

once you get down to the kids with the average size and speed, basically the ones that make up most of your roster unless you are Bama, that is where the evaluation comes into play.

 

[tep624]

Just one point of reference - Duke Football has not had a single 4 star or higher rated recruit per Skout since prior to 2010. If you look at their recruit ratings over that period since 2010, it's about a 60/40 split between 3 stars and 2 stars. Now the 10-4 team they had this year is basically built off the 2010-2013 period recruits.

Now I realize that that most of the other 10+ win teams this year probably had some level on their roster of 4 & 5 star type talent, but it's still interesting to see a school do so much with, what the sites would have you believe, is so little.

 

[rrlbees]

Most of the time the staff (or most like Cole Dial or White) would read interviews from kids we are recruiting just to check up on them and see what they are saying.

I know exactly what they use it for since I spoke to one of the subscribers for years.

 

[anomander]

I know exactly what they use it for since I spoke to one of the subscribers for years.

was i right? i meant to post that as why i thought they would subscribe

 

[rrlbees]

was i right? i meant to post that as why i thought they would subscribe

That is one of the bigger reasons.

 

[Orangepace]

That is one of the bigger reasons.

I assume access to player videos as well? I'm sure they receive tapes of kids all the time, but to have a few databases dedicated to collecting that stuff would seem to be pretty useful.

 

[Orangepace]

The star system is a recruiting website construct for the fans. Coaches don't think of recruits as having 5 stars or 3 stars. Its irrelevant to their evaluation process.

I agree coaches don't rely on the star system and I believe the star system is really for the fans. However, I cannot believe that if a coaching staff internally rates two kids as equals and the sites have them rated individually as a 4* and a 3* that the coaching staff wouldn't take this into consideration when determining which recruit to pursue a little harder. The 4* will generally excite a fanbase more than a 3*, so the marketing of the recruit naming the school alone would have some impact, minimal, but some if all other things are equal.

 

[TheCusian]

I agree coaches don't rely on the star system and I believe the star system is really for the fans. However, I cannot believe that if a coaching staff internally rates two kids as equals and the sites have them rated individually as a 4* and a 3* that the coaching staff wouldn't take this into consideration when determining which recruit to pursue a little harder. The 4* will generally excite a fanbase more than a 3*, so the marketing of the recruit naming the school alone would have some impact, minimal, but some if all other things are equal.

I think that's what Shaw was saying; that they don't care at all. They want the best fit for the program. I prefer that over some arbitrary star system x 1000.

Winning excites the fan base. And keeps coaches employed.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Syracuse doesn't rely on the star systems because they ain't going to get the 4 and 5 star kids. Plain and simple and when dealing with 75-80% 3 stars their is a ton of evaluation that needs to take place, a ton of gray area, a ton of data that needs to be addressed.

That said, not knowing much, give me a pick of the top 250 recruits every year and I can almost guarantee you if reasonably coached a pretty decent football team. The stars do have some merit, they just do. However, for 3 stars their is a ton and I mean a ton of variance.

 

[CuseOnly]

I agree coaches don't rely on the star system and I believe the star system is really for the fans. However, I cannot believe that if a coaching staff internally rates two kids as equals and the sites have them rated individually as a 4* and a 3* that the coaching staff wouldn't take this into consideration when determining which recruit to pursue a little harder. The 4* will generally excite a fanbase more than a 3*, so the marketing of the recruit naming the school alone would have some impact, minimal, but some if all other things are equal.

Except in SU's case where the 4* kid commits and wakes up the next morning and BOOM! he is now demoted to a 3*. That usually excites the kids and the fanbase. It mimics the scenario when a 3* kid gets offered by Bama and wakes up the next day as 4* because...well he got better overnight in his sleep.

Or when SU get a commit from an unrated recruit and after an extensive, exhaustive and extremely thorough evaluation he is now thankfully a 2*. It's very similar to when Bama gets a commit or offers and unrated recruit... he rockets up the charts to a 4*.

 

[Van111]

I get it. But, 4 and 5 star talent has a mysterious way of fitting on to good teams with all kinds of different schemes.

But it is amazing how a talented kid early on picks a school like Syracuse and ends up a 2/3 star later, and like kids that go to the big boys end up 3/4/5 most of the time. I think that weighs in on these kids, if the big boys are after you, as they always seem to get bumped up with the star system. I would say 5 stars for the most part have the physique and game and are more highly scrutinized to be there. But many a 3 star athlete across the board could very well be a 4 if they end up at one of the big boys, ay least IMO.

 

[Van111]

Except in SU's case where the 4* kid commits and wakes up the next morning and BOOM! he is now demoted to a 3*. That usually excites the kids and the fanbase. It mimics the scenario when a 3* kid gets offered by Bama and wakes up the next day as 4* because...well he got better overnight in his sleep.

Or when SU get a commit from an unrated recruit and after an extensive, exhaustive and extremely thorough evaluation he is now thankfully a 2*. It's very similar to when Bama gets a commit or offers and unrated recruit... he rockets up the charts to a 4*.

Amazing trend is kids we are early on in the past years, the big blood hounds come sniffing once they get offered.

 

[retro44]

Amazing trend is kids we are early on in the past years, the big blood hounds come sniffing once they get offered.

Schiano become a legend for doing this against Syracuse, he would wait until we offered then would come in the next few days offer the kid and tell him how bad Syracuse was or even Pitt. He never messed with Ped St. though.

He lived off the other schools recruiting budgets. And they still went broke

 

[PhatOrange]

This thread has gotten away from the core of the article.

The takeaway from the article is that the coach doesn't use the star ratings. They do their own evaluation. If they are looking at a 5 star kid and a 2 star kid at the same position they are going to evaluate those two kids and offer based on who is the best fit, not who the recruiting site says is the better player.

 

[rrlbees]

Except in SU's case where the 4* kid commits and wakes up the next morning and BOOM! he is now demoted to a 3*. That usually excites the kids and the fanbase. It mimics the scenario when a 3* kid gets offered by Bama and wakes up the next day as 4* because...well he got better overnight in his sleep. Or when SU get a commit from an unrated recruit and after an extensive, exhaustive and extremely thorough evaluation he is now thankfully a 2*. It's very similar to when Bama gets a commit or offers and unrated recruit... he rockets up the charts to a 4*.

Urban legend.