Defense Question

[LeMoyneCuse]

Trying to learn here.

Are the concerns y'all saw on defense something you think can be improved week-by-week with some DART and practice? BC running hard made me a little nervous. First game and all, but have never been more interested in understanding aspects of the game I don’t fully understand.

There were a lot of issues that can be chalked up to accountability problems - not setting edges, not staying in gaps (looking at you, Rashard Perry). If the DART message works, that should improve.

That said, I... don't know how athletic/physically strong the defensive line is. So while the team needs to play with more discipline on defense, if run defense improves, it might be aided by tweaks to the scheme as opposed to the defensive line taking a huge step forward.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Trying to learn here.

Are the concerns y'all saw on defense something you think can be improved week-by-week with some DART and practice? BC running hard made me a little nervous. First game and all, but have never been more interested in understanding aspects of the game I don’t fully understand.

People more familiar with coaching have given better takes, but I'll say this -

If I have to choose in college football between a sharp offense and a solid defense, offense wins in college football and I'll take the offense, and that's what we saw Saturday. Even great defenses give up scores some time.

It's just asking too much of a defense to reliably get stops. Offense has more control over its destiny. What I saw was an offense that was in control. Managed the clock for a score before the half, handled our business on third down, didn't panic when McCord got sacked and we faced a 2nd and 19 and got the first. We're not used to that level of execution.

Basically, defense isn't reliable anyway, so just expect that the results aren't as predictable and pile up the points.

 

[baggerbob]

People more familiar with coaching have given better takes, but I'll say this -

If I have to choose in college football between a sharp offense and a solid defense, offense wins in college football and I'll take the offense, and that's what we saw Saturday. Even great defenses give up scores some time.

It's just asking too much of a defense to reliably get stops. Offense has more control over its destiny. What I saw was an offense that was in control. Managed the clock for a score before the half, handled our business on third down, didn't panic when McCord got sacked and we faced a 2nd and 19 and got the first. We're not used to that level of execution.

Basically, defense isn't reliable anyway, so just expect that the results aren't as predictable and pile up the points.

My complaint Saturday was we won the toss, I told people take the ball and score first, let the opponent come from behind.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

My complaint Saturday was we won the toss, I told people take the ball and score first, let the opponent come from behind.

Agreed.

I know people get all hot and bothered over deferring, but I say take the ball and put your boot on the opponent's neck right away.

 

[007]

Agreed.

I know people get all hot and bothered over deferring, but I say take the ball and put your boot on the opponent's neck right away.

There is a reason most teams defer.

 

[007]

They will get more familiar with the scheme as the season goes but there is no guarantee that they’ll be a good run defense.

Defense is about being discipline, fundamentally sound and playing together. They will improve if they do those things consistently.

Yup. I think it's reasonable to expect that defense will get better at executing the scheme and playing with better discipline. Now that they have analyzed the Ohio tape, this will be, or needs to be, a big learning week for the players and the staff. By staff "learning" that doesn't mean understanding fundamentals and tackling techniques - those takes in this thread are simply off and not the issue. Self scouting and understanding what the players can do physically and mentally is where the learning will take place. Player improvement on defense will be a process and not a "light goes off" kind of thing.

As you said, there is no guarantee this team will be good at run defense. The defense I saw Saturday has more issues than run defense. Maybe that was more about game 1/new staff stuff. Pass coverage, in particular from the safeties, was not good when Ohio spread them out. Team speed on defense doesn't get talked about much, but I think this is a red flag. I dislike singling out players, but Barron, McDonald, Deuce HAVE to make plays. Too often Saturday they seemed to be a step late.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

There is a reason most teams defer.

Yeah there's also a reason why most teams punt it more than they should.

 

[Ringostar57]

Communication issues and hesitation is what I saw. They looked slow reacting leading to over reacting.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Agreed.

I know people get all hot and bothered over deferring, but I say take the ball and put your boot on the opponent's neck right away.

On Saturday we have to get up 7-0… best way to slow down a running team is make them play from behind.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Yup. I think it's reasonable to expect that defense will get better at executing the scheme and playing with better discipline. Now that they have analyzed the Ohio tape, this will be, or needs to be, a big learning week for the players and the staff. By staff "learning" that doesn't mean understanding fundamentals and tackling techniques - those takes in this thread are simply off and not the issue. Self scouting and understanding what the players can do physically and mentally is where the learning will take place. Player improvement on defense will be a process and not a "light goes off" kind of thing.

As you said, there is no guarantee this team will be good at run defense. The defense I saw Saturday has more issues than run defense. Maybe that was more about game 1/new staff stuff. Pass coverage, in particular from the safeties, was not good when Ohio spread them out. Team speed on defense doesn't get talked about much, but I think this is a red flag. I dislike singling out players, but Barron, McDonald, Deuce HAVE to make plays. Too often Saturday they seemed to be a step late.

Have to wonder how much shrader’s arm falling off became a distraction from the defensive woes we had last year.

 

[zjscuse]

That scary if we’re paying these coaches millions and they don’t know how to address the fundamentals.

He literally says it in his Georgia tech presser. They know what’s going on lol.

 

[timkay99]

I think Fran is harping on toughness b/c that is the primary cause for the tackling issues in this game.

A 225 pounder coming at you at full speed, the secondary was essentially just throwing themselves at the legs and hoping for the best. They didn't show that toughness of standing up and letting their fundamentals kick in. They let the need for self-preservation kick in, which is rational and what practice tries to train out of you.

I would expect to see better angles and overall wrapping up by the secondary against Jamal Haynes (5'9, 190) and Haynes King (6'3, 215) now that there is film for the staff to harp on and really make it a teaching point ahead of this game to open ears.

 

[HyattsCuse]

A bit concerning that Frans brown response to missed tackling was they need to be tougher because for me it looked like we didn’t understand the fundamental ways to tackle.

While Coach Fran has been a little more “real” with the media, I took the “tougher” response as classic coach speak.

Almost everything football related both physical and mental can fall under the umbrella of “tougher”. Pretty vague response that answers the question, but no details.

I’m hopeful the D can continue to get better. They answered the call with a couple stops to help get us the 3 TD lead and seal the game.

 

[baggerbob]

I think Fran is harping on toughness b/c that is the primary cause for the tackling issues in this game.

A 225 pounder coming at you at full speed, the secondary was essentially just throwing themselves at the legs and hoping for the best. They didn't show that toughness of standing up and letting their fundamentals kick in. They let the need for self-preservation kick in, which is rational and what practice tries to train out of you.

I would expect to see better angles and overall wrapping up by the secondary against Jamal Haynes (5'9, 190) and Haynes King (6'3, 215) now that there is film for the staff to harp on and really make it a teaching point ahead of this game to open ears.

None of our safties remind me of Darius or T Jones who both would have crushed their running back. They both used to make Tight ends not want to come across the Middle.

 

[kingtidge]

New coaches, new scheme, new players, Old players playing new positions equals a recipe for disaster.

Our D is going to get better as the season goes on. Fortunately i believe we can win shoot outs. Our O has the potential to put up lots of points. This is going to be a different year. We will need to put up 30 or more to beat GT

It looked to me that the tackling fundamentals were poor and the angles many players were taking in the scheme were not good (hence the numerous completely missed tackles.)

And our bigger line got pushed around to open gaps way to easily, as well.

GT's strength is their running game, evidently, so we should find out quickly if we can make significant improvement in a week.

But I don't think this is going to be solved overnight either, so this may be a shootout (optimistically) or ugly for us (if they run roughshod over us and our O performs mediocre to poor.)

 

[djcon57]

Yes of course it can be fixed. One thing not mentioned that I saw was there was a lot of guys rotating in and out. That will slow as guys don’t do what they should.

Keep in mind, Ohio has an NFL caliber back and a mobile QB so those are 2 tough asks in game 1.

Fran and team will clean up the slop

Ohio's RB ran for 500 yards over 3 years in the Big 10. Just because posters here keep saying he'll be NFL caliber, doesn't make it true.

 

[money3189]

Yup. I think it's reasonable to expect that defense will get better at executing the scheme and playing with better discipline. Now that they have analyzed the Ohio tape, this will be, or needs to be, a big learning week for the players and the staff. By staff "learning" that doesn't mean understanding fundamentals and tackling techniques - those takes in this thread are simply off and not the issue. Self scouting and understanding what the players can do physically and mentally is where the learning will take place. Player improvement on defense will be a process and not a "light goes off" kind of thing.

As you said, there is no guarantee this team will be good at run defense. The defense I saw Saturday has more issues than run defense. Maybe that was more about game 1/new staff stuff. Pass coverage, in particular from the safeties, was not good when Ohio spread them out. Team speed on defense doesn't get talked about much, but I think this is a red flag. I dislike singling out players, but Barron, McDonald, Deuce HAVE to make plays. Too often Saturday they seemed to be a step late.

well said and I agree.

 

[tep624]

It’s debatable.

We look like we’ve been told to just “hit hard” rather than fundamental tackling.

I’m not confident that can be fixed quickly. It also is dependent if the coaching staff see that as the issue.

A bit concerning that Frans brown response to missed tackling was they need to be tougher because for me it looked like we didn’t understand the fundamental ways to tackle.

Hope they focus on going a little lower and wrapping up and not just slamming their body into the other player.

Well to be fair he did say something about squaring up to tackle or something to that effect that wasn't just about being tough. So it did sound like form was a noticed issue too (which I hoped since to me form was a MAJOR issue).

 

[tep624]

The tackling form issues I mainly noticed were launching at a player instead of running through the ball carrier, keeping your head up and wrapping. But poor tackling form was only one issue. Schematically being in the correct position, being sure of your responsibilities and carrying them out with 100% confidence and with intensity also appeared to be issues.

100% - it was like every one of our second level defenders wanted to impersonate a rocket when they tried to tackle. It was almost like a ballet in a way of missed tackles lol

 

[tep624]

For sure. Only having 1 possession in the first quarter for us was alarming.

But we seemed to settle in after that.

We really were in control of the game most of the game.

Again I think a lot of people had unrealistic expectations of this game. I told everyone I talked to that I thought we would win 45-21.

I was off by a point on Ohio and a TD for us.

I’ll take that as a win.

The only reason you missed on that additional TD for us was due to lousy officiating. So you were close enough!

 

[tep624]

Ohio's RB ran for 500 yards over 3 years in the Big 10. Just because posters here keep saying he'll be NFL caliber, doesn't make it true.

Amba Etta Tawo caught almost 1,500 yards here in 1 season after doing nothing at Maryland - sometimes guys do catch lightning in a bottle like that. Will be interesting to follow him this season and see how his season turns out.

 

[kcsu]

I thought the kids played slow meaning they were overthinking everything. I also don't think that we did enough to scheme away the run. I saw very few stunts. Basically, a straight D for the most part until we got to the Redzone at which point we changed things up. The constant rotation was a plus and a minus but in the long run it is going to be a good thing. We need to find another strong edge player. Maybe David O. We also need to find a few safeties that want to hit.

 

[swish7]

The tackling form & angles can be corrected. That said, I am very concerned that those issues manifested in game 1.

If anything, I would expect our fundamentals to be good in game 1. I would expect good angles & form to be an area of emphasis & differentiation from the prior regime. It's a way for less talented teams to beat more talented teams.

The Ohio player closed out on our offensive player from 10-15 yards away & in a perpendicular line, which is the hardest thing to do, & demolished our player. Tackling from an angle is easier & we constantly did it poorly.

Hopefully Fran nips this issue in the bud. It was not good for Frans tacklers to look like Dinos tacklers.

 

[CbusCuse]

100% - it was like every one of our second level defenders wanted to impersonate a rocket when they tried to tackle. It was almost like a ballet in a way of missed tackles lol

I think when players try tackling bigger opponents like the OU back their mentallity is they feel like in order to bring him down they need to do it extra forcefully so they launch themselves. This also prevents them from looking weak if they collide with the player, wrap and are and not able to bring them down immediately. They then get drug a bit looking silly. So they hope the launch gets them down. But when you do this you leave your feet early giving them time to evade the tackle. Additionally when launching most players lower their head so they don't see what is going on. So if you miss its a big play for the offense. Players should still run through them and wrap. Yeah, sometimes you may still get drug for 3-5 yards until the rest of the gang tacklers arrives. It may make you look a bit weaker than the RB but they don't break free for massive runs this way.

 

[tep624]

I think when players try tackling bigger opponents like the OU back their mentallity is they feel like in order to bring him down they need to do it extra forcefully so they launch themselves. This also prevents them from looking weak if they collied with the player, wrap are and not able to bring them down immediately, and then get drug a bit looking silly. So they hope the launch gets them down. But when you do this you leave your feet early giving them time to evade the tackle. Additionally when launching most players lower their head so they don't see what is going on. So if you miss its a big play. Players should still run through them and wrap. Yeah, sometimes you may still get drug for 3-5 yards until the rest of the gang tackle arrives. It may make you look a bit weaker than the back but they don't break free for massive runs that way.

Yeah that was the biggest negative change I saw, I was used to our defenders in years past running through tackles. Duce was known for sticking tackles like that. And collectively it looked like vs Ohio in the first half in particular, most of our team forgot how to consistently do that. Really unusual. I'm hoping they just came out flat and had some stage fright or something along those lines.