Development in and Around Syracuse Discussion

[jr4750]

So sad to see. Anyone know if the school may be interested in a private / public partnership on renovating something like this? I could see it being a great project for the school of architecture. Anyone have a contact? I’m going to email someone from the development office but think it’s be a great opportunity to donate the money for the land bank fee and donate the property to the school. My wife and I love these sorts of things. Wish we had the money to do the renovation ourselves and were local. It’d be a fun project.

NJCuse97 may have some ideas on this.

 

[Cheriehoop]

Sounds like tearing down Pioneer Homes (which I had already assumed was the behinds the scene plan when the corridor was first proposed) sounds much like the motivation so highly criticized regarding the original 81 project. It’s using the highway for gentrification. Displacing the poor with no stated plan for their relocation during construction, questionable directives assigning where they will live years later after construction is completed, is deja vu. Displacing these neighborhoods just like the original 15th ward might show we haven’t learned much after all these years. Proposing mixing public housing residents with high end residents in a shared new apartment living is unfortunately an unproven theory. How many of the displaced Pioneer Home residents and other poor residents currently living will be included in this planned integration after construction? What about during construction? How will they be identified years later to even move back ? Will they want to or be able to years later, Are we displacing the poor essentially forcing them to disperse like ward 15 hoping to gentrify the area while they will be away from all the organizations, medical and social nets that currently serve them in that area. What are the plans? Many more details should be revealed before undertaking such a re-engineering project. Hoping that much more forethought and detailed planning is done for this to succeed and not again be something 50 years later to be rehashed as a big mistake after the fact.

Not trying to be negative, who doesn’t want improvements in the area but we need to openly address all the repercussions and details for these plans as they are being slowly revealed.

 

[CuseOnly]

Sounds like tearing down Pioneer Homes (which I had already assumed was the behinds the scene plan when the corridor was first proposed) sounds much like the motivation so highly criticized regarding the original 81 project. It’s using the highway for gentrification. Displacing the poor with no stated plan for their relocation during construction, questionable directives assigning where they will live years later after construction is completed, is deja vu. Displacing these neighborhoods just like the original 15th ward might show we haven’t learned much after all these years. Proposing mixing public housing residents with high end residents in a shared new apartment living is unfortunately an unproven theory. How many of the displaced Pioneer Home residents and other poor residents currently living will be included in this planned integration after construction? What about during construction? How will they be identified years later to even move back ? Will they want to or be able to years later, Are we displacing the poor essentially forcing them to disperse like ward 15 hoping to gentrify the area while they will be away from all the organizations, medical and social nets that currently serve them in that area. What are the plans? Many more details should be revealed before undertaking such a re-engineering project. Hoping that much more forethought and detailed planning is done for this to succeed and not again be something 50 years later to be rehashed as a big mistake after the fact.

Not trying to be negative, who doesn’t want improvements in the area but we need to openly address all the repercussions and details for these plans as they are being slowly revealed.

Why does there need to be a political plan to find a place for people on assistance to live?

There are tons of people on assistance in other communities and no giant complexes for them to live. And no plan from community of government to house them and it seems to work fine. Just tax dollars going towards rent and other assistance..

50% of the housing in Fulton and phoenix is publicly assisted, there is no giant complex for them. They rent from landlords and get a portion of their rent paid for.

 

[Cheriehoop]

Why does there need to be a political plan to find a place for people on assistance to live?

There are tons of people on assistance in other communities and no giant complexes for them to live. And no plan from community of government to house them and it seems to work fine. Just tax dollars going towards rent and other assistance..

50% of the housing in Fulton and phoenix is publicly assisted, there is no giant complex for them. They rent from landlords and get a portion of their rent paid for.

Fulton does have public housing - Emory Grove and Gilbert Grove complex with over 136 units in total. Phoenix has Christopher Court, an 80 unit apt complex.

 

[CuseOnly]

Fulton does have public housing - Emory Grove and Gilbert Grove complex with over 136 units in total. Phoenix has Christopher Court, an 80 unit apt complex.

There are 20x that number of people in both those towns that are not in those complexes. Drop in the bucket, just like those complexes they want to tear down in Syracuse by 81.

I would know. I also know one landlord that owns 80 units himself with 90% on assistance.

 

[CuseLegacy]

Gentlemen and ladies if you want to turn this thread into a political discussion take it to the OT forum.

 

[shandeezy7]

Sounds like tearing down Pioneer Homes (which I had already assumed was the behinds the scene plan when the corridor was first proposed) sounds much like the motivation so highly criticized regarding the original 81 project. It’s using the highway for gentrification. Displacing the poor with no stated plan for their relocation during construction, questionable directives assigning where they will live years later after construction is completed, is deja vu. Displacing these neighborhoods just like the original 15th ward might show we haven’t learned much after all these years. Proposing mixing public housing residents with high end residents in a shared new apartment living is unfortunately an unproven theory. How many of the displaced Pioneer Home residents and other poor residents currently living will be included in this planned integration after construction? What about during construction? How will they be identified years later to even move back ? Will they want to or be able to years later, Are we displacing the poor essentially forcing them to disperse like ward 15 hoping to gentrify the area while they will be away from all the organizations, medical and social nets that currently serve them in that area. What are the plans? Many more details should be revealed before undertaking such a re-engineering project. Hoping that much more forethought and detailed planning is done for this to succeed and not again be something 50 years later to be rehashed as a big mistake after the fact.

Not trying to be negative, who doesn’t want improvements in the area but we need to openly address all the repercussions and details for these plans as they are being slowly revealed.

I appreciate a differing view on this, Cherie, but this is still very much in the early planning stages, and Purpose Built has a pretty strong track record, as far as I can tell. I think a lot of your questions (which are valid ones) will be addressed as this process moves forward.

Initially, though, I think that this excerpt from the article provides some context into how they will relocate and ultimately bring back residents to the new development, which will include giving low-income tenants housing options that have not been available to them in a very long time:

"Simmons recognizes the residents have a long haul ahead. Some have been living in the same apartments for generations. For better and worse, those apartments will be gone. The housing authority has already been talking with local landlords about the need to find housing for tenants during construction.

But the construction also opens a door that has been closed for more than a decade in Syracuse and elsewhere: Section 8 housing choice vouchers. The waiting list for these vouchers in Syracuse has been closed for 10 years and there are still 3,000 people on it. But tenants whose buildings are going to be knocked down will get these federal rental assistance vouchers. They can be used anywhere in the U.S."

 

[OttoMets]

Sounds like tearing down Pioneer Homes (which I had already assumed was the behinds the scene plan when the corridor was first proposed) sounds much like the motivation so highly criticized regarding the original 81 project. It’s using the highway for gentrification. Displacing the poor with no stated plan for their relocation during construction, questionable directives assigning where they will live years later after construction is completed, is deja vu. Displacing these neighborhoods just like the original 15th ward might show we haven’t learned much after all these years. Proposing mixing public housing residents with high end residents in a shared new apartment living is unfortunately an unproven theory. How many of the displaced Pioneer Home residents and other poor residents currently living will be included in this planned integration after construction? What about during construction? How will they be identified years later to even move back ? Will they want to or be able to years later, Are we displacing the poor essentially forcing them to disperse like ward 15 hoping to gentrify the area while they will be away from all the organizations, medical and social nets that currently serve them in that area. What are the plans? Many more details should be revealed before undertaking such a re-engineering project. Hoping that much more forethought and detailed planning is done for this to succeed and not again be something 50 years later to be rehashed as a big mistake after the fact.

Not trying to be negative, who doesn’t want improvements in the area but we need to openly address all the repercussions and details for these plans as they are being slowly revealed.

You're right. These are all important questions to ask, and there are people in the South Side community who are rightfully concerned that this has been a pretext for a land-grab all along. Sounds like you should've written the article, Cherie - there's a lot more recognition of nuance here than there was in the P-S piece, which lacked context.

That said, this planning effort is separate from the viaduct project and would be pursued in one form or another even if the Grid is not selected (whether this would be successful is up for debate). And the major players are asking the same questions and making the same points you are. Good to keep them honest, because dispersion of the Pioneer Homes community would be bad for everyone.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

The main issue is, that bridge has to be replaced. Anything other than replacing it as is, will displace somebody.

No matter the decision, there will be discord and lawsuits.

Asthetically, I like the tunnel. Not sure if it works engineering wise, but I see a large green space a a center piece for the city.

I think the grid will mean gridlock, and I think it is Pollyanna to bringing a city together.

The current structure is ugly, but give the best access to the hospitals.

 

[maxxyz]

I think the grid will mean gridlock, and I think it is Pollyanna to bringing a city together.

It’s unfortunate that every study done of cities that tore down their elevated highways and replaced them with a grid disagrees with you.

I have a love of the tunnel idea as you do. But not enough to justify the 2M a year in maintenance costs it will add to the city budget.

 

[shandeezy7]

It’s unfortunate that every study done of cities that tore down their elevated highways and replaced them with a grid disagrees with you.

I have a love of the tunnel idea as you do. But not enough to justify the 2M a year in maintenance costs it will add to the city budget.

Not to mention the massive upfront cost, the length of time it would take to construct, the concentration of air pollution that would have to be vented out somewhere and the demolition of 2 dozen+ buildings that are currently occupied and in fine condition, including a number of significant historic structures. I'm also not so sure that the tunnel option will have any exits in the university/hospital area, due to how wide the tunnel will need to be and how tight that space is there. Maybe I missed that in the proposal, though?

 

[OttoMets]

...

The current structure is ugly, but give the best access to the hospitals.

The hospitals say otherwise.

Lotta people out there who think driving a car every day makes them experts on planning, design, and engineering. (In fact, I'm sensing a positive correlation between VMT and detachment from reality on the ground.)

 

[OttoMets]

Not to mention the massive upfront cost, the length of time it would take to construct, the concentration of air pollution that would have to be vented out somewhere and the demolition of 2 dozen+ buildings that are currently occupied and in fine condition, including a number of significant historic structures. I'm also not so sure that the tunnel option will have any exits in the university/hospital area, due to how wide the tunnel will need to be and how tight that space is there. Maybe I missed that in the proposal, though?

Correct. Plus no interchange with 690, which means that a) the FHWA is unlikely to fund it, and b) virtually nobody will use it - the inevitable toll will chase them onto the currently 90% below-capacity street grid, which means the taxpayers will have pissed away over $5 billion on a tunnel that helps motorists originating south of the city drive a little more quickly to a mall and Onondaga Lake Park.

 

[shandeezy7]

Correct. Plus no interchange with 690, which means that a) the FHWA is unlikely to fund it, and b) virtually nobody will use it - the inevitable toll will chase them onto the currently 90% below-capacity street grid, which means the taxpayers will have pissed away over $5 billion on a tunnel that helps motorists originating south of the city drive a little more quickly to a mall and Onondaga Lake Park.

Do the tunnel proponents know about any of this? Probably not, because all they know is whatever BS Katko is spewing to them. The only positive thing a tunnel would do is it would get traffic coming from south of the city to the mall slightly easier. Anyone trying to travel through the city who is not an idiot would just take 481 around the city, bypassing any tolls and congestion.

 

[Orijinal]

Although I love the thought of a tunnel, the other problem (besides significant costs, demolition, and time of construction) is that a tunnel prevents the city of Syracuse from showcasing itself to motorists just passing through

 

[oldpinepoint]

Tunnel is a lazy idea to appease everyone. That’s it.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Not to mention the demolition of 2 dozen+ buildings that are currently occupied and in fine condition, including a number of significant historic structures.

Can you please share pictures of these historic monuments so we can all appreciate their architectural and cultural contribution to the city? Something tells me it's just easier to pretend that we're trying to tear down St Patrick's Cathedral. Oh the humanity.

Tunnel is a lazy idea to appease everyone. That’s it.

Nothing lazy about it. It's more expensive and potentially more costly to maintain but that by itself shouldn't rule it out - it's just a convenient lightning rod. Most of the maintenance costs would be state responsibility not local. And guess what? $3B goes a long way to supporting the local economy during the years of tunnel construction. Construction workers have to live someplace. Hotels will be near capacity. That's not a bowling congress 6-month shot-in-the-arm, this is a 5+ year enema. Cuomo will spend billions in Buffalo or NYC if he doesn't spend it here. It's ok to have a nice things.

For the record, I'd prefer they re-route 81 through the West St bypass and reconnect with the current viaduct somewhere near the Inner Harbor.

 

[shandeezy7]

Can you please share pictures of these historic monuments so we can all appreciate their architectural and cultural contribution to the city? Something tells me it's just easier to pretend that we're trying to tear down St Patrick's Cathedral. Oh the humanity.


Nothing lazy about it. It's more expensive and potentially more costly to maintain but that by itself shouldn't rule it out - it's just a convenient lightning rod. Most of the maintenance costs would be state responsibility not local. And guess what? $3B goes a long way to supporting the local economy during the years of tunnel construction. Construction workers have to live someplace. Hotels will be near capacity. That's not a bowling congress 6-month shot-in-the-arm, this is a 5+ year enema. Cuomo will spend billions in Buffalo or NYC if he doesn't spend it here. It's ok to have a nice things.

For the record, I'd prefer they re-route 81 through the West St bypass and reconnect with the current viaduct somewhere near the Inner Harbor.

Luckily for you, I already did that. I'm sure you won't care though. Who cares about those buildings when you can shave 5 minutes off of your commute!

Development in and Around Syracuse Discussion

 

[OttoMets]

Can you please share pictures of these historic monuments so we can all appreciate their architectural and cultural contribution to the city? Something tells me it's just easier to pretend that we're trying to tear down St Patrick's Cathedral. Oh the humanity.


...

Four's the limit for photo attachments to post. You may look up the other 20.

Donnie, you're out of your element. Honestly, I can't see an argument that you've got any concern -- cultural, architectural, or financial -- for the city or Central New York. You're coming across like a little kid who gets off on exciting paper sketches of infrastructure, no matter how unrealistic or unnecessary.

 

[Fly Rodder]

If it's jobs you want, the nominal $1b+ difference between the tunnel and grid and the $2-3m annually thereafter in saved maintenance pays for an awful lot of teachers in poor city school districts. Based on a really simple model, Syracuse City schools could hire up to 300 teachers for the next 25 years.

And that's just teachers, I'm sure there are hundreds of better ways to spend that money than on out-of-state construction workers where the bulk of the money goes to construction company owners.

 

[Cusester]

 

[shandeezy7]

If it's jobs you want, the nominal $1b+ difference between the tunnel and grid and the $2-3m annually thereafter in saved maintenance pays for an awful lot of teachers in poor city school districts. Based on a really simple model, Syracuse City schools could hire up to 300 teachers for the next 25 years.

And that's just teachers, I'm sure there are hundreds of better ways to spend that money than on out-of-state construction workers where the bulk of the money goes to construction company owners.

Actually, the cost differential between the grid and the tunnel would be closer to a minimum of $2 billion, and that's before you get to the inevitable delays and cost overruns that have plagued almost every similar project.

 

[FrancoPizza]

the nominal $1b+ difference between the tunnel and grid and the $2-3m annually thereafter in saved maintenance pays for an awful lot of teachers in poor city school districts. Based on a really simple model, Syracuse City schools could hire up to 300 teachers for the next 25 years.

You’re talking as if the city gets to choose between a tunnel and hiring teachers. Newsflash: we don’t suddenly free up millions to spend if we go with the section 8 grid.

 

[Cusefan0307]

The tunnel is a giant waste of tax dollars and does nothing to help the city. We’d be better off if suburbanites stayed out of city planning.

 

[CuseOnly]

The tunnel is a giant waste of tax dollars and does nothing to help the city. We’d be better off if suburbanites stayed out of city planning.

Lol, you act as if the citi planners have a clue...

Newsflash, they don't either.