Does it matter how we win?

[OttoinGrotto]

Would you still bitching if, in 2015, we win 8 games and whatever bowl running a boring "I"?

Yes, because we've seen that dance before, and because we would still be failing to take advantage of the Dome. Again, because people forget or ignore this, THE ONLY STADIUM OF ITS TYPE IN ALL OF P5. And also because we've seen a successful season and followed it up with a bad season. I'm not talking about what happens in any one season here.

Now, string together three consecutive 8 win seasons with your I offense and maybe there's something to think about.

I just don't understand - we've had such bad results going defense first. Abysmal. Yet people are convinced its our salvation. Why? How?

At this point I'm convinced that the football gods are punishing us for our stupidity. Until we actually acknowledge our advantages we won't consistently be good.

 

[TheCusian]

You're blaming the kicked dog for not wanting to get up under the grounds that it's a new person doing the kicking. You don't see a problem with that? Whenever the argument begins with "the problem with the fan base is..." that argument has already lost because it is focusing on the wrong things. What's BS is that we habitually piss away a completely unique advantage. That's the problem. And we're so thrilled to do it!

A kicked dog? You believe the program is doing this to you with malice?

Name one thing you're honestly excited to see this season, without snark?

Obviously losing is the main issue - but if you don't think the overwhelming gloom surrounding the program is propagated by this fan base, you're nuts.

I focus on the the things that I think will be exciting next season, believe we will ace a chance in all games, think Lester and Hunt will be dynamic, think Dunk will be a revelation, etc.

Whats your first reaction to that list? Snark? A "but"?

 

[TheCusian]

Yes, because we've seen that dance before, and because we would still be failing to take advantage of the Dome. Again, because people forget or ignore this, THE ONLY STADIUM OF ITS TYPE IN ALL OF P5. And also because we've seen a successful season and followed it up with a bad season. I'm not talking about what happens in any one season here. Now, string together three consecutive 8 win seasons with your I offense and maybe there's something to think about. I just don't understand - we've had such bad results going defense first. Abysmal. Yet people are convinced its our salvation. Why? How? At this point I'm convinced that the football gods are punishing us for our stupidity. Until we actually acknowledge our advantages we won't consistently be good.

I don't believe it's our salvation - I'd love a TCU like offense. I just don't believe anything is helped by relentlessly beating that drum. I prefer hoping that Lester's offense is a revelation.

 

[orangechef]

Chip and Scooch get it. If we're a blank slate, winning however we can as Crusty suggests works. We're not a blank slate though. We've got a recent history of fleeting moments where the fanbase gets excited and gets immediately let down. You can't keep nut punching your fans and have the same old lines while nothing changes before the broader fan base just quits. That's where we're at right now because the wheels fell off for P, Robinson was a disaster, things fell apart after that WVU winning game at the Dome in 2011, we got off to such a bad start after 2012, then Villanova and the rest of this season after the year before ended on a high note.

So I'm tired of Go and RMH and others failing to understand that if we hope to ever see anything more out of our program it makes sense that we need more sizzle (fun and entertaining offense) than steak (hoping to claw out close wins in defensive battles where we have no margin for error) because that's a really low quality peice of meat being offered and we keep seeing that our approach Does. Not. Work. We keep losing for a lot of reasons, but part of it is that the game has passed us by even though we arguably play in the stadium best suited to modern offense, and we construct a low ceiling for ourselves by making everything a grind. Then we lie to ourselves thinking it will get better once we fit our offense to our talent, instead of asking what exactly we offer to a talented offensive player and until we can answer that accept that we're probably limiting ourselves right out of the gate, and rationalize to ourselves the reasons why it makes sense that our head coach values possession of the ball so little and is so eager to give up on his offense, punt, and expect his defense to make something happen.

It is insanity. I thought Syracuse was better than that. We're not. We're comfortable failing. We'll give the pain we know all the time in the world, and immediately pull the plug once anything is attempted that's different.

The fans that stay home are the smart ones.

fans that stay home are not fans.

 

[bcubs9497]

Yes, because we've seen that dance before, and because we would still be failing to take advantage of the Dome. Again, because people forget or ignore this, THE ONLY STADIUM OF ITS TYPE IN ALL OF P5. And also because we've seen a successful season and followed it up with a bad season. I'm not talking about what happens in any one season here.

Now, string together three consecutive 8 win seasons with your I offense and maybe there's something to think about.

I just don't understand - we've had such bad results going defense first. Abysmal. Yet people are convinced its our salvation. Why? How?

At this point I'm convinced that the football gods are punishing us for our stupidity. Until we actually acknowledge our advantages we won't consistently be good.

Consistency in coaching personnel translates into being consistently good.

Y'all would've demanded Saban's head on a platter after his first season at Alabama.

 

[GoSU96]

Yes, because we've seen that dance before, and because we would still be failing to take advantage of the Dome. Again, because people forget or ignore this, THE ONLY STADIUM OF ITS TYPE IN ALL OF P5. And also because we've seen a successful season and followed it up with a bad season. I'm not talking about what happens in any one season here.

Now, string together three consecutive 8 win seasons with your I offense and maybe there's something to think about.

I just don't understand - we've had such bad results going defense first. Abysmal. Yet people are convinced its our salvation. Why? How?

At this point I'm convinced that the football gods are punishing us for our stupidity. Until we actually acknowledge our advantages we won't consistently be good.

Going defense first resulted in 8, 5, 8, and 7 wins after a string of 1, 4, 2, 3, 4.

I'm not sure last year proves anything other than it's tough to win when your OC has a nervous breakdown mid season, you play 4 QB's and start 9 different OL, play 5 RB's and 9 WR's.

 

[Scooch]

I have never, ever, ever understood why so many people set up a false dichotomy with this program. Let me be crystal clear... It is possible to try to have BOTH a high octane offense AND a stout defense.

Why the hell do people dismiss having a great offense because they want a great defense? It makes no friggin' sense.

 

[GoSU96]

I have never, ever, ever understood why so many people set up a false dichotomy with this program. Let me be crystal clear... It is possible to try to have BOTH a high octane offense AND a stout defense.

Why the hell do people dismiss having a great offense because they want a great defense? It makes no friggin' sense.

Who is arguing for that?

 

[Millhouse]

The only style of football I really dislike is losing football. While I prefer high scoring offensive football, I really don't care what we run so long as we win. Ground and pound? Fine - just win. Spread? Fine - just win. Hurry up? Fine - just win. Pro style? Fine - just win. Option? Fine - just win. So, in that spirit, I am prepared to be patient with Lester's offense, whatever it turns out to be, as long it shows sign that we can win with it. Just demonstrate that it works with our talent and doesn't require talent we cannot recruit and I will believe. Does style matter to you?

The just win stuff totally misrepresents what everyone else is saying. I think we will win more spending more on offensive coaches and running a spread offense that is easy for qbs who have run it in high school. If style matters it's because it increases the probability of winning. Pointing out that wins are wins are wins is a trivial point

 

[Millhouse]

I have never, ever, ever understood why so many people set up a false dichotomy with this program. Let me be crystal clear... It is possible to try to have BOTH a high octane offense AND a stout defense. Why the hell do people dismiss having a great offense because they want a great defense? It makes no friggin' sense.

I think there is something to it. Jack of all trade offenses prepare defenses well in practice. TCU took a step back on defense and it was worth it. The only way to be both is to be a factory.

 

[Kelly029x]

Sometimes people lose perspective on these things. Nobody likes losing but this is still our University and these players deserve just as much support as any other team we've had regardless of what their record is. The coaches and players sacrifice greatly to play for this beloved university, and they deserve more respect based on their sacrifice! And I agree, fans that stay home are not fans......

 

[Scooch]

Who is arguing for that?

Oy.

 

[GoSU96]

Oy.

Good answer.

 

[Scooch]

Good answer.

Because this topic is exhausting. Lots of people, over years, have argued that they want a great defense OVER a great offense. They can step up and claim it.

 

[kcsu]

I like a physical team. One that the other team knows they are going to be in a battle with. I think we are getting back to that. I want big uglies on both sides that have that streak

 

[syr02esq]

I think offensive recruits like the razzle dazzle of high octane offenses like Baylor, Oregon, Clemson, etc. That in itself is a selling point to recruits.

I think the reason we are recruiting so well defensively is because our defense has a lot of razzle dazzle in itself. We have an aggressively, active defense with many different blitzing schemes. I bet Shy, Clark, Trey and the rest of the crew liked that.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Let's just respond to a bunch of things.

Do you really think that this has been some run heavy power offense the last six years?

I think the staff would identify the offense as run-based, yes. To his credit though, Marrone put the ball in the air a lot more than we were used to beginning with Paulus.

A kicked dog? You believe the program is doing this to you with malice?

Name one thing you're honestly excited to see this season, without snark?

Obviously losing is the main issue - but if you don't think the overwhelming gloom surrounding the program is propagated by this fan base, you're nuts.

I focus on the the things that I think will be exciting next season, believe we will ace a chance in all games, think Lester and Hunt will be dynamic, think Dunk will be a revelation, etc.

Whats your first reaction to that list? Snark? A "but"?

Let's parse this out.

1. It doesn't actually matter if anything malicious has happened or not. The truth is in our recent history every time there's been some buzz and excitement around the program and people filled the Dome they were immediately let down. That has happened. The fans have not been rewarded for showing the faith to come out. This isn't even something that can be argued.

2. I'm excited about some things. I'm discouraged about a lot of things too. That's what happens when you don't feel like you can trust your staff. Again, the context matters here. We're not talking about a brand new program with no history building a fanbase from scratch. People can thump their chests and talk about how a fan's duty is to support the team through thick and thin, but we're not talking about some ridiculous co-dependent relationship here. If the fans are treated badly, and they have been, they can leave, and they have. It's morons like us that are still around.

Going defense first resulted in 8, 5, 8, and 7 wins after a string of 1, 4, 2, 3, 4.

I'm not sure last year proves anything other than it's tough to win when your OC has a nervous breakdown mid season, you play 4 QB's and start 9 different OL, play 5 RB's and 9 WR's.

I think there's a lot of fool's gold in those records. 2010, we got a game winning drive on the road vs USF, hung on vs WFVU on the road, and if not for a win over Rutgers by a field goal would not have been bowl eligible (could only count one win between Maine and Colgate, people forget that because they see the 8 wins and think we were a lot more solid than we really were), then limped into our bowl, and the bowl went way better than expected. 2011 we failed to sustain the momentum, which isn't surprising when you white knuckle everything, losing 5 straight in games that we didn't even really compete all that well in. Don't forget, we also needed a huge rally to beat Wake in the opener, and then a fortunate call to beat Toledo, otherwise that record could have been really ugly. 2012 the stars aligned, but even at that we pulled out three really close wins vs Pitt, USF and Mizzou. 2013 we barely scraped in to bowl eligibility, losing a close one to Pitt and then winning on the last play vs BC. That earned us the chance to win another bowl game, which also required a late rally and fluky punt return to pull off.

There's a theme here. When you don't have much margin for error you might end up on the right side of things now and again, but it's not going to happen every time. It's a loser's game long term, and I think we've been lucky more than good. Rah rah, I know, you make your own luck, that's fine. It runs out. At some point you have to make a move to be good. I'm not seeing that from our program. I'm seeing us get content with a low ceiling that we've built for ourselves, and worse, we make bad decisions in game (ie, punting on the opponent's side of the field).

The just win stuff totally misrepresents what everyone else is saying. I think we will win more spending more on offensive coaches and running a spread offense that is easy for qbs who have run it in high school. If style matters it's because it increases the probability of winning. Pointing out that wins are wins are wins is a trivial point

And not only would it probably increase the chances of winning, it would actually take advantage of our home field AND be more fun for the fans! Which leads us to...

fans that stay home are not fans.

That sounds great, and lets people take pride in being hardcore fans, but that's another lie we're telling ourselves. It's just another lie that makes it excusable that we've been watching horrible football for a really long time, and blames people for being smart consumers instead of acknowledging that if you want people to participate in what you're doing you need to help them believe in something special. With Robinson it was Super Bowl rings and Little Engines, and, well... To his credit, Marrone sold something special, but then he stopped believing it. Shafer tried with #hardnosed, and then the fans got nut punched. We don't even know what we're doing right now. I guess we're trusting Lester to be a good OC with no resume to suggest that he can be and half a season of really crappy offense under his belt. I mean, that's the plan, right? Of all things that's the plan? I'm saying hey, there are these offenses all over college football that are thriving in places that aren't talent rich that would be really well suited to the Dome, let's do that, but the plan people want me to buy in to is that Lester and whatever is behind the mystery door that is his offense are the thing to believe in? Uhhhhhhhhhh...

So, to wrap it all up - no, it's not about "just win, baby." Our program lost that privilege. Now it has to earn some trust back, and I'm telling you, if defense-first-ball-control-field-position is the way we think we're going to do it just accept that we're going to see more of the same. We'll have all kinds of time to talk about how close we were to winning games during our losing seasons, and we'll get conned by 7 whiteknuckled win seasons in to thinking we're actually seeing progress. Meanwhile we'll be amazed when we stop watching our own games and watch the bowl games at the types of things other teams are doing.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I think offensive recruits like the razzle dazzle of high octane offenses like Baylor, Oregon, Clemson, etc. That in itself is a selling point to recruits.

I think the reason we are recruiting so well defensively is because our defense has a lot of razzle dazzle in itself. We have an aggressively, active defense with many different blitzing schemes. I bet Shy, Clark, Trey and the rest of the crew liked that.

And that's why this is maddening - we've got the right defense in place! We've got the facility for the right offense in place!

And our solution is to put more tight ends on the field.

 

[TheCusian]

Let's just respond to a bunch of things. I think the staff would identify the offense as run-based, yes. To his credit though, Marrone put the ball in the air a lot more than we were used to beginning with Paulus. Let's parse this out. 1. It doesn't actually matter if anything malicious has happened or not. The truth is in our recent history every time there's been some buzz and excitement around the program and people filled the Dome they were immediately let down. That has happened. The fans have not been rewarded for showing the faith to come out. This isn't even something that can be argued. 2. I'm excited about some things. I'm discouraged about a lot of things too. That's what happens when you don't feel like you can trust your staff. Again, the context matters here. We're not talking about a brand new program with no history building a fanbase from scratch. People can thump their chests and talk about how a fan's duty is to support the team through thick and thin, but we're not talking about some ridiculous co-dependent relationship here. If the fans are treated badly, and they have been, they can leave, and they have. It's morons like us that are still around. I think there's a lot of fool's gold in those records. 2010, we got a game winning drive on the road vs USF, hung on vs WFVU on the road, and if not for a win over Rutgers by a field goal would not have been bowl eligible (could only count one win between Maine and Colgate, people forget that because they see the 8 wins and think we were a lot more solid than we really were), then limped into our bowl, and the bowl went way better than expected. 2011 we failed to sustain the momentum, which isn't surprising when you white knuckle everything, losing 5 straight in games that we didn't even really compete all that well in. Don't forget, we also needed a huge rally to beat Wake in the opener, and then a fortunate call to beat Toledo, otherwise that record could have been really ugly. 2012 the stars aligned, but even at that we pulled out three really close wins vs Pitt, USF and Mizzou. 2013 we barely scraped in to bowl eligibility, losing a close one to Pitt and then winning on the last play vs BC. That earned us the chance to win another bowl game, which also required a late rally and fluky punt return to pull off. There's a theme here. When you don't have much margin for error you might end up on the right side of things now and again, but it's not going to happen every time. It's a loser's game long term, and I think we've been lucky more than good. Rah rah, I know, you make your own luck, that's fine. It runs out. At some point you have to make a move to be good. I'm not seeing that from our program. I'm seeing us get content with a low ceiling that we've built for ourselves, and worse, we make bad decisions in game (ie, punting on the opponent's side of the field). And not only would it probably increase the chances of winning, it would actually take advantage of our home field AND be more fun for the fans! Which leads us to... That sounds great, and lets people take pride in being hardcore fans, but that's another lie we're telling ourselves. It's just another lie that makes it excusable that we've been watching horrible football for a really long time, and blames people for being smart consumers instead of acknowledging that if you want people to participate in what you're doing you need to help them believe in something special. With Robinson it was Super Bowl rings and Little Engines, and, well... To his credit, Marrone sold something special, but then he stopped believing it. Shafer tried with #hardnosed, and then the fans got nut punched. We don't even know what we're doing right now. I guess we're trusting Lester to be a good OC with no resume to suggest that he can be and half a season of really crappy offense under his belt. I mean, that's the plan, right? Of all things that's the plan? I'm saying hey, there are these offenses all over college football that are thriving in places that aren't talent rich that would be really well suited to the Dome, let's do that, but the plan people want me to buy in to is that Lester and whatever is behind the mystery door that is his offense are the thing to believe in? Uhhhhhhhhhh... So, to wrap it all up - no, it's not about "just win, baby." Our program lost that privilege. Now it has to earn some trust back, and I'm telling you, if defense-first-ball-control-field-position is the way we think we're going to do it just accept that we're going to see more of the same. We'll have all kinds of time to talk about how close we were to winning games during our losing seasons, and we'll get conned by 7 whiteknuckled win seasons in to thinking we're actually seeing progress. Meanwhile we'll be amazed when we stop watching our own games and watch the bowl games at the types of things other teams are doing.

And the things you're excited about are?

 

[OttoinGrotto]

And the things you're excited about are?

Not sure if we see him this year but I'm still a believer in AJ Long. I have high hopes for McFarlane and hope Morris can be reclaimed and am curious about Strickland. I still have high hopes for Ishmael and Custis and a healthy Estime. I like the the offensive line, I think. I like the young linebackers. Optimistic about the d-line. Looking forward to Hofstrichter.

I'm irritated you're asking though, Cusian. There's a difference between being a pessimistic dirtbag and being fed up with what you're seeing. I'm fed up with what I'm seeing. This program is asking for soooo much to be taken on faith. It's exhausting. I'm actually very optimistic that if we make the right decisions that we can be really good. I need to see more than what I'm seeing right now. It's not enough to hope that we get different results with the same group. It's just not.

 

[anomander]

Not sure if we see him this year but I'm still a believer in AJ Long. I have high hopes for McFarlane and hope Morris can be reclaimed and am curious about Strickland. I still have high hopes for Ishmael and Custis and a healthy Estime. I like the the offensive line, I think. I like the young linebackers. Optimistic about the d-line. Looking forward to Hofstrichter. I'm irritated you're asking though, Cusian. There's a difference between being a pessimistic dirtbag and being fed up with what you're seeing. I'm fed up with what I'm seeing. This program is asking for soooo much to be taken on faith. It's exhausting. I'm actually very optimistic that if we make the right decisions that we can be really good. I need to see more than what I'm seeing right now. It's not enough to hope that we get different results with the same group. It's just not.

I agree with this. I don't consider myself a pessimist, but there were very few positive things last year, and a lot more question marks then things to he excited about. Being fed up is a good way to put it. For the record I was personally fine with the way we were winning under Marrone. We had an identity on offense. I don't think we have had one the past 2 years.

I just really need to see some results next season. I'm seeing way too many signs that we're heading back to the mid 2000's, then the oter way around. Blind faith can only take you so far.

 

[bcubs9497]

Winning is winning; whether it be establishing the run, airing it out, special teams, defense, whatever.

If you want to "win with style", go grab a teddy from Victoria's Secret and wear it during the game.

 

[TheCusian]

Not sure if we see him this year but I'm still a believer in AJ Long. I have high hopes for McFarlane and hope Morris can be reclaimed and am curious about Strickland. I still have high hopes for Ishmael and Custis and a healthy Estime. I like the the offensive line, I think. I like the young linebackers. Optimistic about the d-line. Looking forward to Hofstrichter. I'm irritated you're asking though, Cusian. There's a difference between being a pessimistic dirtbag and being fed up with what you're seeing. I'm fed up with what I'm seeing. This program is asking for soooo much to be taken on faith. It's exhausting. I'm actually very optimistic that if we make the right decisions that we can be really good. I need to see more than what I'm seeing right now. It's not enough to hope that we get different results with the same group. It's just not.

Sorry, man. I get being tired of what you're seeing - I just couldn't recall you sharing that kind of thing.

I'll meet you halfway - I think everyone is right to be pessimistic about Lester's offense given the state of offense in college football. It seems odd to go 12 personnel when most are running 3-4 WR's. I am hoping that he surprises us and it's much more dynamic than what we usually think of with two TE sets.

 

[javadoc]

Yes, because we've seen that dance before, and because we would still be failing to take advantage of the Dome. Again, because people forget or ignore this, THE ONLY STADIUM OF ITS TYPE IN ALL OF P5. And also because we've seen a successful season and followed it up with a bad season. I'm not talking about what happens in any one season here.

Now, string together three consecutive 8 win seasons with your I offense and maybe there's something to think about.

I just don't understand - we've had such bad results going defense first. Abysmal. Yet people are convinced its our salvation. Why? How?

At this point I'm convinced that the football gods are punishing us for our stupidity. Until we actually acknowledge our advantages we won't consistently be good.

I don't know if I ever got an answer to this question. Forgive me if I have forgotten.

We have the best, climate-controlled indoor facility in college football, ideal for opposing defenses to be able to react quickly to our players' moves, maintain footing, and get a leg up on us - compared to outdoor settings, where slippery conditions give the offense an edge. How does the Dome give us an advantage that demands a particular style of play?

 

[Millhouse]

I don't know if I ever got an answer to this question. Forgive me if I have forgotten.

We have the best, climate-controlled indoor facility in college football, ideal for opposing defenses to be able to react quickly to our players' moves, maintain footing, and get a leg up on us - compared to outdoor settings, where slippery conditions give the offense an edge. How does the Dome give us an advantage that demands a particular style of play?

qbs have trouble throwing the ball when it's wet or windy.