Draymond Green NOT a Red fan

[Orangezoo]

There was a podcast last week about Red's offensive philosophy. It appears a lot of people in this thread didn't listen to it.

And yes Straughn was brought in to partially help with offensive strategy.

We have some flaws on this team that can be corrected overall going forward. The pg is a ball stopper. Our best shooter can only catch and shoot. We have little inside game.

Ball stopper, bad outside shooter and often passes it as a last resort although I will say he has gotten better at that.. a very inefficient way to play but better at it. If he put as much effort into correcting his shot as JJ he would be having the monster year he hoped for.

 

[Scooch]

It’s possible Autry, who has spent a lifetime in the game, is an idiot who has no clue on how to design plays that spring Bell to shoot.

It’s possible Bell, who is in his second year of playing college basketball, is a deeply flawed and limited player who couldn’t get himself open if he was trying to run through a soaking wet paper bag.

Anything is possible.

 

[pwong]

 

[NineOneSeven]

The one attempt in the 2nd half was off a downscreen and a curl at the top of the key. Absolutely not in Bell's game at all. That was very Andy Rautins-like and he was extremely good at it because he could catch it in the midst of turning and really square up his body. Right now Bell has to catch the ball facing the basket. He can give a head fake and dribble to the side but the entire time he's still facing the basket.

He's a catch and shoot guy with an extremely quick release and we know he can make them with little space. But he's primarily stationary, which is fine.

 

[Chip]

Bell isn't equipped nor is the team to going start running pin downs for him to come of the screen and shoot contested catch and shoot 3's. He doesn't move great off the ball, never has. NC st defense was abysmal in first half and much better in 2nd half. He had a great open looks and he made them which was great. Nobody will ever confuse Bell with JJ Reddick or Jordan Hawkins when it comes to working to get open for catch and shoot 3's

he doesn't move well off ball. Pretty cut and dry.

I just went through his 8 threes (ESPN has it as one of their highlight reels). Looks like his movement or pump fakes actually created 3 of them. I was pleasantly surprised.

3 of them he was wide open in his spot.

2 of them he was covered fairly well in his spot and still hit them.

I'm not worried about the 2nd half, you often see guys get hot and then not as the opponent keys on them. Opens things up for others. We didn't play a great 2nd half offensively, but did enough to hold on and win on the road.

Good enough for me. Should be for everyone else too.

 

[007]

I agree with Green in one aspect. You can’t just concede not getting your best shooter shots. You need to get creative and take advantage of his affect on the game. Use him on high ball screens, put him and JJ in action so the defense has to make a decision who to guard. Use Bell to set back screens and then screen Bell again coming off down screens. You should be able to get Brown some easy slips to the basket if he’s in screening for Bell. Just keeping him in the corner doesn’t force the defense to make any decisions. Unfortunately, you have to have a point guard who recognizes all these situations and get the ball to the open guy on time. That’s hard when your point guard has his head down dribbling the ball.

Lots of good observations here, hoops. It's almost as if you have coached before...

When one player becomes the focus of the D, so much so that they face guard him and his man never provides help, coaching 201 - use Bell to set screens (even if he sucks at it) and then run "screen the screener" action to try and get him catch and shoot opportunities. There is no way that the staff doesn't know this. It kind of leads me to believe that they weren't comfortable running those sets with Bell without practice or explicit instruction (the collective BBIQ of the team might limit this kind of in game adjustment?). Or, they were trying to focus on strong side action hoping Bell's man would help. Or, they were trying to take advantage of his man not helping.

 

[rrlbees]

How much is on Red? How much is on Bell? How much is on NC State's defensive adjustments? I don't expect Bell to run around as much as Andy Rautins did, but, I also don't expect Bell to sprout roots in the corner either.

Those roots are an offensive set. Just watch the first 5 mins of the game. Has a little bit of everything we run. The sets where Bell is planted in the corner I’ll bet most of the time is a player planted on the other side. 3 man offense.

 

[M2MPrinciples]

I'm enjoying the healthy parts of this thread.

It's unfortunate that we can't take better advantage of a hot shooter by either creating clean looks for Bell or having him run around to open clean looks for other players. How much of that you want to put on Bell vs. Red vs. the assistants is just details to me - Moving without the ball is something that any player on a good offensive team should be able to do.

 

[Fly Rodder]

There was a podcast last week about Red's offensive philosophy. It appears a lot of people in this thread didn't listen to it.

And yes Straughn was brought in to partially help with offensive strategy.

We have some flaws on this team that can be corrected overall going forward. The pg is a ball stopper. Our best shooter can only catch and shoot. We have little inside game.

Donnie Freeman better be the second coming of Melo.

 

[hoopsupstate]

We can all say what we think should happen with Bell, but in reality he may not be ready for this next step offensively. He shies away from contact, so Bell setting a screen could be an offensive foul waiting to happen. He shoots standing straight up. It’s hard to come off screens ready to shoot unless you’re in a low offensive stance. Red sees this everyday in practice and he knows best. Draymon Green works with pros, not 19-20 year olds that aren’t lottery picks. I could say to him, how can you be in the pros when you are a terrible jump shooter while sticking out your butt when you shoot? It’s easy to be on social media or in a forum and have all the right answers. It’s another thing to be coaching with the talent you have.

 

[pwong]

 

[CuseFaninVT]

The back door cut was discussed here as well. A great option for a kid like Bell who can finish above the rim, and with a passer like Maliq keying the play.

 

[Red2003]

How could this ever happen! The coach and players must have no common sense. How could you not get your hot shooter a shot in the 2nd half?

Gerry McNamara National Championship Game 2003--> First half six 3's 18 points / 2nd half 0 points. That's with Carmelo Anthony and Hakim on the court. Maybe it's not so easy.

 

[Cusefan0307]

We can all say what we think should happen with Bell, but in reality he may not be ready for this next step offensively. He shies away from contact, so Bell setting a screen could be an offensive foul waiting to happen. He shoots standing straight up. It’s hard to come off screens ready to shoot unless you’re in a low offensive stance. Red sees this everyday in practice and he knows best. Draymon Green works with pros, not 19-20 year olds that aren’t lottery picks. I could say to him, how can you be in the pros when you are a terrible jump shooter while sticking out your butt when you shoot? It’s easy to be on social media or in a forum and have all the right answers. It’s another thing to be coaching with the talent you have.

He's playing the same way he did in HS. It was why a lot of people questioned why we recruited him. He sat in the corner or wing and just popped shots when he received the ball. He's just shooting a better percentage now than he did then.

 

[DPCuse]

Seems as though teams start by packing it in and forcing us to hit some outside shots. When we do, the D extends which opens up the drive for our guards. If we shoot poorly (Ga Tech game) then it looks ugly. If we hit shots, everything opens up (i.e. Louisville, UNC, NC State games).

 

[RF2044]

I don't read Green's observations as "hate."

And in fact, conceptually / in a vacuum he's spot on.

But what he probably isn't aware of is that Bell is essentially a stationary jump shooter who gets limited elevation, and uses his height to get shots off even when guys are in his face. It's about as close to a set shot as you can get [not criticizing him, just observing].

He doesn't shoot well off the move, because he needs his puppies set to knock down threes. He's gotten better in that regard taking a dribble [or two] to get free for mid range shots. But it isn't a strength of Bell's.

Which is probably why we don't have him run the baseline to get to his spots, or rub him off of screens like we used to with Rautins, Cooney, etc. because that doesn't set him up to leverage his strength.

Which is catching and shooting, with his feet already set.

 

[gocraz4dasu]

Part 2. Antics aside, Draymond is a really smart basketball mind. And he's not wrong. The NBA has so many smart basketball minds and really focus on pace and space. Not a ton of college teams do the same, which is why a lot of NBA guys hate watching college.

You’re definitely correct about NBA guys struggling to watch CBB. I have a family member on an NBA staff right now (who grew up as a die hard SU fan) and we’ve discussed CBB coaching a few times. The coaching in CBB is so far behind the NBA that it genuinely makes it more difficult for teams to identify NBA talent. It’s one of the reasons why guys drafted later and later are producing more in the league now (more bball talent now-a-days too obviously). The teams have to rely more on their pre-draft work-outs than their college tape now. Many NBA coaches see far more value in watching a Euro or G-League game than a CBB game.

This is someone who lives, breathes, and dies basketball. He would break down Euro league games to identify new sets he liked in his leisure time in college. His love of Syracuse basketball as a kid and in his teens led him to pursue working in CBB. But once you makes the step to the NBA, and learn more, you begin to realize how far behind CBB now is in philosophy. He even had a short spell going back to CBB and the inability of the HC to adapt anything from the NBA game led him to bounce back to the NBA as soon as possible. It almost feels like a different game to a lot of NBA guys.

 

[DoctorBombay]

Draymond is an insane meathead, but he's extremely intelligent when it comes to basketball Xs and Os. You watch him on the court and he's always in the right place at the right time.

I've always hated idiots like Draymond Green, always been a pet peeve.
Rodman, Laimbeer, Beverley- types, and a few others whose names escape me.
Good/Great players obviously, but hard to deal with someone who lacks composure.
Green literally triggered the greatest comeback in NBA Finals history by his selfishness and lack of awareness. If he's there for Games 5 & 6, Lebron and the Cavs don't build momentum and Steph picks up another ring. Can't take seriously a guy whose lack of self-control cost his team a championship. JMHO

 

[Madbiker]

It is ridiculous that Bell attempted only 2 shots in the 2nd half. More should have been done to screen for him and get him shots. I knew when Mintz was scoreless at halftime he would hog the ball in the 2nd half and force bad shots rather than passing it. Thankfully, Cope made enough plays to enable us to escape a giant el foldo and squeak out the win.

 

[Millhouse]

I don't read Green's observations as "hate."

And in fact, conceptually / purely from a basketball standpoint, he's spot on.

But what he probably isn't aware of is that Bell is essentially a stationary jump shooter who gets limited elevation, and uses his height to get shots off even when guys are in his face.

He doesn't shoot well off the move, because he needs his puppies set to knock down threes. He's gotten better in that regard taking a dribble [or two] to get free for mid range shots. But it isn't a strength of Bell's.

Which is probably why we don't have him run the baseline to get to his spots, or rub him off of screens like we used to with Rautins, Cooney, etc. because that doesn't set him up to leverage his strength.

Which is catching and shooting, with his feet already set.

Pat of the reason Cooney's numbers didn't align with how good a shooter we knew he was is because of how hard it is to make shots running in different directions.

If it's curry and you just want to get him as many shots as possible and those tough shots are still better than everyone else's, go nuts

But with Bell, it he should still get the ball if the punt guard is making the right plays

It's like the bubble screen in the spread offense. If you do everything else right, they're going to have to give it to you. Spread everyone out, make the defense easy to read, and let the QB choose accordingly. We just don't have a qb

 

[RF2044]

Pat of the reason Cooney's numbers didn't align with how good a shooter we knew he was is because of how hard it is to make shots running in different directions.

If it's curry and you just want to get him as many shots as possible and those tough shits are still better than everyone else's, go nuts

But with Bell, it he should still get the ball if the punt guard is making the right plays

It's like the bubble screen in the spread offense. If you do everything else right, they're going to have to give it to you. Spread everyone out, make the defense easy to read, and let the QB choose accordingly. We just don't have a qb

No argument there about the team's lack of lead guard.

But that's not the point Green was making -- which was, why aren't we running him off screens to free him up?

 

[CuseBlood44]

There was a podcast last week about Red's offensive philosophy. It appears a lot of people in this thread didn't listen to it.

And yes Straughn was brought in to partially help with offensive strategy.

We have some flaws on this team that can be corrected overall going forward. The pg is a ball stopper. Our best shooter can only catch and shoot. We have little inside game.

The one on Orange nation where he said he doesn’t have one and that he instead teaches “concepts” and “spacing”?

 

[baggerbob]

How could this ever happen! The coach and players must have no common sense. How could you not get your hot shooter a shot in the 2nd half?

Gerry McNamara National Championship Game 2003--> First half six 3's 18 points / 2nd half 0 points. That's with Carmelo Anthony and Hakim on the court. Maybe it's not so easy.

Gerry hurt his hand on the first half of the game is why he didn't score the second half.

 

[CuseBlood44]

what do you actually mean by this? Should JJ or Mintz be holding up a finger 1-4 for each play that he wants to run every time down the court in a 1/2 court set. Like I said, I am asking because I am curious.

Scoop used to do that. Watch UConn move the ball offensively around clingan and compare to our iso ball

 

[Orangezoo]

I don't read Green's observations as "hate."

And in fact, conceptually / purely from a basketball standpoint, he's spot on.

But what he probably isn't aware of is that Bell is essentially a stationary jump shooter who gets limited elevation, and uses his height to get shots off even when guys are in his face.

He doesn't shoot well off the move, because he needs his puppies set to knock down threes. He's gotten better in that regard taking a dribble [or two] to get free for mid range shots. But it isn't a strength of Bell's.

Which is probably why we don't have him run the baseline to get to his spots, or rub him off of screens like we used to with Rautins, Cooney, etc. because that doesn't set him up to leverage his strength.

Which is catching and shooting, with his feet already set.

Exactly and all those like the Shields guy are missing it too. Red knows basketball as does the staff - Bell isn’t the player you can run some of that with given his limitations. If he could work on that and become a much better player off the ball and improve his footwork he could blow up.