Eric Dungey to the NY Giants UDFA

[reedny]

But, according to those who do these evaluations for a living, that is the difference.

Some of those same geniuses worked for the Buffalo Bills. They're not infallible.

 

[cuse309]

Scouting "success" in the NFL is relative term. It's like in Major League baseball. If you fail to get a hit 70% of the time over your career, you're in the hall of fame.

 

[sufandu]

It's been said his numbers were aided by a qb pass friendly offense designed to get receivers in space for easier throws, while Jones relied more on throwing accurately through tight windows. Jones also didn't have our stable of talented wide receivers. His wr's dropped a lot of passes.
I'm sure my take will get a lot of negative responses, but as a Syracuse fan, it's really hard to grade these things objectively. Scouts analysis is as far from subjective as you can get.

It's funny how we applaud our offense for these reasons and then ignore our offensive system when using numbers to say our players were better than others. We did the same thing with AET. Remember when we knew McNabb was better than a whole bunch of qb's even though his numbers weren't as good or when the Steve Spurrier qb's at Florida weren't considered good pro prospects despite putting up crazy numbers?

 

[cuse309]

It's funny how we applaud our offense for these reasons and then ignore our offensive system when using numbers to say our players were better than others. We did the same thing with AET. Remember when we knew McNabb was better than a whole bunch of qb's even though his numbers weren't as good or when the Steve Spurrier qb's at Florida weren't considered good pro prospects despite putting up crazy numbers?

It's awfully tough to be objective when evaluating the strengths and weakness of the players you route for.

 

[TheCusian]

It's funny how we applaud our offense for these reasons and then ignore our offensive system when using numbers to say our players were better than others. We did the same thing with AET. Remember when we knew McNabb was better than a whole bunch of qb's even though his numbers weren't as good or when the Steve Spurrier qb's at Florida weren't considered good pro prospects despite putting up crazy numbers?

I think Eric has a problem with accuracy and it's the thing that is holding him back at QB in the NFL. The system can inflate the numbers, but there are signs that the NFL is dipping it's toe into these systems, finally. I think scouts generally understand this. The bias against the system is slowly going away. Eventually, it might even be seen at a positive.

Basically, numbers are nice - but they are looking at other attributes, and they can be from a pro-style system or an air-raid or whatever we call our system

 

[sufandu]

I think Eric has a problem with accuracy and it's the thing that is holding him back at QB in the NFL. The system can inflate the numbers, but there are signs that the NFL is dipping it's toe into these systems, finally. I think scouts generally understand this. The bias against the system is slowly going away. Eventually, it might even be seen at a positive.

Basically, numbers are nice - but they are looking at other attributes, and they can be from a pro-style system or an air-raid or whatever we call our system

It's not bias against any system. It's that inflated numbers based on a system's strengths shouldn't fool scouts. McNabb was drafted for the west coast offense despite never having played in one and putting up lesser numbers than qb's in pass friendlier offenses. Jimmy Garoppolo was drafted in the second round having played in the same offense as Dungey against lesser competition, so there was no system bias there. Scouts look for skillsets. Dungey didn't display the skillset that NFL teams look for in qb's they wanna draft. McNabb and Garoppolo did. Maybe ED can prove them wrong. I'm rooting for him to, but I can't be surprised when nfl scouts/coaches don't see him as a pro qb based on what I saw his 4 years in orange.

Based on your last sentence we are actually somewhat in agreement.

 

[OrangeDW]

Gotta say, I’m still curious what his arm issue was last year and if it’s 100% now.

 

[rrlbees]

It's not bias against any system. It's that inflated numbers based on a system's strengths shouldn't fool scouts. McNabb was drafted for the west coast offense despite never having played in one and putting up lesser numbers than qb's in pass friendlier offenses. Jimmy Garoppolo was drafted in the second round having played in the same offense as Dungey against lesser competition, so their was no system bias there. Scouts look for skillsets. Dungey didn't display the skillset that NFL teams look for in qb's they wanna draft. McNabb and Garoppolo did. Maybe ED can prove them wrong. I'm rooting for him to, but I can't be surprised when nfl scouts/coaches don't see him as a pro qb based on what I saw his 4 years in orange.

Based on your last sentence we are actually somewhat in agreement.

I think it’s all a crap shoot even with nfl scouts. How many QBs have been 1st round busts and how many have been late round stars.

I’ll ask what I did earlier, what skills did jones display as better than Dungey?

 

[sufandu]

I think it’s all a crap shoot even with nfl scouts. How many QBs have been 1st round busts and how many have been late round stars.

I’ll ask what I did earlier, what skills did jones display as better than Dungey?

Someone listed those skills after you asked that question before. I didn't see Jones play, so I don't know. After watching Dungey play for 4 years and watching NFL for a long time, he never looked like he threw the ball like an NFL qb. That's what I base my opinion on. If you see it differently and think you're being objective, cool.

 

[Bayside44]

Someone listed those skills after you asked that question before. I didn't see Jones play, so I don't know. After watching Dungey play for 4 years and watching NFL for a long time, he never looked like he threw the ball like an NFL qb. That's what I base my opinion on. If you see it differently and think you're being objective, cool.

Comparing Dungey to his backup at SU Tommy had a quicker, much quicker release, more accurate, better ball, and just looked the part moreso than ED.

Dungey was just a beast of a baller.

 

[721Comstock]

I think it’s all a crap shoot even with nfl scouts. How many QBs have been 1st round busts and how many have been late round stars.

I’ll ask what I did earlier, what skills did jones display as better than Dungey?

Ability to get drafted in First round. Somehow.

 

[rrlbees]

Someone listed those skills after you asked that question before. I didn't see Jones play, so I don't know. After watching Dungey play for 4 years and watching NFL for a long time, he never looked like he threw the ball like an NFL qb. That's what I base my opinion on. If you see it differently and think you're being objective, cool.

And those listed were refuted.

 

[sufandu]

And those listed were refuted.

No they weren't. You saying you think they were exaggerated isn't refuting anything. All you did was mention stats, which is not a strong argument when a qb plays in a qb friendly offense. As I mentioned in another post, despite having inferior stats we (and nfl scouts) knew McNabb was better than qb's with better stats his senior year. How is it possible then that they had better stats?

 

[TheCusian]

It's not bias against any system. It's that inflated numbers based on a system's strengths shouldn't fool scouts. McNabb was drafted for the west coast offense despite never having played in one and putting up lesser numbers than qb's in pass friendlier offenses. Jimmy Garoppolo was drafted in the second round having played in the same offense as Dungey against lesser competition, so there was no system bias there. Scouts look for skillsets. Dungey didn't display the skillset that NFL teams look for in qb's they wanna draft. McNabb and Garoppolo did. Maybe ED can prove them wrong. I'm rooting for him to, but I can't be surprised when nfl scouts/coaches don't see him as a pro qb based on what I saw his 4 years in orange.

Based on your last sentence we are actually somewhat in agreement.

Yeah - my whole post was basically in agreement with what you were saying. I get what you're saying about no bias - but that's not 100% true. Plenty of examples of scouts and NFL brass saying they don't like the work it takes to get players to transition from a college system to a pro system. CFB systems get pooped on quite a bit. It's taken a long while for these systems to get more run in the NFL.

 

[sufandu]

Yeah - my whole post was basically in agreement with what you were saying. I get what you're saying about no bias - but that's not 100% true. Plenty of examples of scouts and NFL brass saying they don't like the work it takes to get players to transition from a college system to a pro system. CFB systems get pooped on quite a bit. It's taken a long while for these systems to get more run in the NFL.

Sure. I just don't think they disqualify a player in their minds because of a college system because you see guys from all different systems get drafted.

 

[rrlbees]

No they weren't. You saying you think they were exaggerated isn't refuting anything. All you did was mention stats, which is not a strong argument when a qb plays in a qb friendly offense. As I mentioned in another post, despite having inferior stats we (and nfl scouts) knew McNabb was better than qb's with better stats his senior year. How is it possible then that they had better stats?

There’s not one thing that jones did better than Dungey. Not last year, not their career. You can look at any of the stats or you could watch them both on film. And jones having dropped balls is a cop out. Now if you want to say jones may have more “potential”, that would be fair, but it’s an opinion and an opinion the giants obviously hold. But at #6, jones potential better lead to being a stud. Otherwise the giants blew it.

 

[two3zone]

There’s not one thing that jones did better than Dungey. Not last year, not their career. You can look at any of the stats or you could watch them both on film. And jones having dropped balls is a cop out. Now if you want to say jones may have more “potential”, that would be fair, but it’s an opinion and an opinion the giants obviously hold. But at #6, jones potential better lead to being a stud. Otherwise the giants blew it.

ED had trouble completing passes to his receivers in stride, almost every deep ball the receiver had to come back on to make the catch. Kid is a heck of a player but I don't see NFL QB .

 

[KaiserUEO]

There’s not one thing that jones did better than Dungey. Not last year, not their career. You can look at any of the stats or you could watch them both on film. And jones having dropped balls is a cop out. Now if you want to say jones may have more “potential”, that would be fair, but it’s an opinion and an opinion the giants obviously hold. But at #6, jones potential better lead to being a stud. Otherwise the giants blew it.

Please do put Dungey in the same sentence with Jones ever again.

If Jones is a bust (and he won’t be), he was still 100000000000000000x the NFL QB prospect than dungey.

Remember, every single NFL team has already told Dungey “no thanks” when it comes to him even being a camp arm.

Pretty simple stuff.

 

[SUskibum]

Yeah - my whole post was basically in agreement with what you were saying. I get what you're saying about no bias - but that's not 100% true. Plenty of examples of scouts and NFL brass saying they don't like the work it takes to get players to transition from a college system to a pro system. CFB systems get pooped on quite a bit. It's taken a long while for these systems to get more run in the NFL.

Yup, McVay is demonstrating that it’s basically 1 big math problem. The others will adapt now that owners are seeing it work in the big leagues

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

I think the undrafted kid from UB will take Josh Allen’s job and I think if Jones has gone where he should in the 4th round Eric would beat him out to back up Eli.

Eric could have success as a backup but as a starter NFL teams would watch enough film to find a way to stop him and he’d take too many big hits given the style he plays. He’s such a fun player to watch I think he’s best served dominating the CFL or XFL regardless.

 

[kcsu]

Eric doesn't throw the best, doesn't run the best but what he does have is that intangible magic, the Juice, the "IT" that all great leaders have. Eric has the unique ability to make every other player better. He is an amazing leader. All he does is will his team to perform beyond their God given ability. He inspires. He wins.

 

[two3zone]

Eric doesn't throw the best, doesn't run the best but what he does have is that intangible magic, the Juice, the "IT" that all great leaders have. Eric has the unique ability to make every other player better. He is an amazing leader. All he does is will his team to perform beyond their God given ability. He inspires. He wins.

Tebow had all that and more.

 

[sufandu]

There’s not one thing that jones did better than Dungey. Not last year, not their career. You can look at any of the stats or you could watch them both on film. And jones having dropped balls is a cop out. Now if you want to say jones may have more “potential”, that would be fair, but it’s an opinion and an opinion the giants obviously hold. But at #6, jones potential better lead to being a stud. Otherwise the giants blew it.

So clarify for me, are you arguing that Jones was a stretch where he was drafted, that Dungey is a better qb, or both? It seems that much of your argument is that the Giants shouldn't have taken Jones at 6. Nobody is arguing that, but that has nothing to do with comparisons to Dungey.

As someone pointed out earlier, if he had been drafted on the second day as projected, nobody would be criticizing him or the Giants for taking him. He was universally regarded a better prospect than Dungey by everyone but people wearing orange colored glasses. It wasn't just the Giants. It was everyone. Every team passed on drafting Dungey 7 times and he signed as a free agent only partially at qb. I'm not sure if the dropped passes stat is a cop out. If it is, why do draft evaluations mention Jones was #2 in dropped passes last year? No need to mention it if it's irrelevant.

Is it possible that your close connection to the program and fondness for one of the toughest most likeable players in program history has clouded your ability to be objective?

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Some of those same geniuses worked for the Buffalo Bills. They're not infallible.

Yep, but fans who know nothing of player evaluation, thinking they know better, are funny.

 

[KaiserUEO]

Yep, but fans who know nothing of player evaluation, thinking they know better, are funny.

Time to remind all of a few things as we head off into Summer.

Board Rule #1. The Board is ALWAYS wrong

Board Rule #2. Leave the Talent Evaluating to the Talent Evaluators

Guys, I told you all years ago that Dungeys best NFL bet was as a TE. While I’m glad he didn’t switch after his Soph year and all his success at QB, it doesn’t change the fact of who is and was as a QB prospect.