ESPN-ACC GOR: Time was Running Out

[Btstimpy]

Well to that end Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Illinois(all B1G footprint) lost EVs and population from the last census while Virginia, North Carolina, Georgia, Florida(SEC/ACC footprint) gained EVs and population from the last census.

Also, on the Maryland unlike Rutgers which subsidize its AD by taking millions of dollars from the RU General fund and making all the student essentially subsidize RU football and the AD's deficits Maryland was forbidden to do this under Maryland law. Maryland will be a mess in the B1G, but with the fact the B1G is guaranteeing them 35-40 million a year in TV revenue they will be able to balance their sheets with that money. The ACC could have loaned them the money to balance their sheets and made them pay it back in small amounts, but Maryland wasn't the most important university in the conference. Maryland, Wake Forest, and Duke all sold games to Jacksonville from what I remember. I remember visiting a family member when I was younger in Duval County, Florida and Duke-Florida State were playing a football game at then Alltel Stadium.

Penn State is going to leave the B1G now that they have tomato cans in RU/Maryland to beat up on and give their alums easy road games to attend to now. The B1G will always be able to pay more than the ACC because of BTN and Penn State won't take less money to move. If the B1G didn't placate PSU with RU/Maryland and Notre Dame joined then maybe, but now I am pretty confident they won't move.

Yes. the Big Ten sits in a declining demographic, and the ACC sits in a growing one. Notre Dame made that calculation. Penn State should as well. If they want to play with Maryland and Rutgers while they all decline, that's up to them. If they were smart with an eye to the future, they wouldn't. By 2030 it's projected that 55% of the US population will be in ACC states. Swofford keeps saying this number.

 

[Resonator]

I understand, and we've discussed it before. I personally want Penn State. I aim high. And I also think that under the right circumstances (i.e. the right President hire by Penn State) that they might come to the ACC. I also don't like the Big Ten Conference. But regarding alternatives, I don't want to rule out UConn over that 2002 lawsuit. This decision is too important for the long term.

UNC and Duke aside, nobody in the ACC's southern flank gives a royal red rat's arse about UConn. And, we know why UNC and Duke care. And, that reason is why they've been voted down time and again.

Besides, they ruled themselves out with that lawsuit. There are consequences for every action you take. They're where they are because of their actions. They have to deal with that.

 

[orange79]

UNC and Duke aside, nobody in the ACC's southern flank gives a royal red rat's arse about UConn. And, we know why UNC and Duke care.

Just so I'm clear, is that reason hoops? Or something else I am missing?

 

[Toga]

Despite the fact that Cuse took a lousy shot when we ended up on the butt end of Virginia politics (as well as I recall some no votes from Duke and Carolina), we stayed out of the lawsuit, kept our mouths shut and lines of communication open while trying to add value by being considered "New York's Team". Pretty wise course of action I'd say. Now UConn ...

UNC and Duke aside, nobody in the ACC's southern flank gives a royal red rat's arse about UConn. And, we know why UNC and Duke care. And, that reason is why they've been voted down time and again.

Besides, they ruled themselves out with that lawsuit. There are consequences for every action you take. They're where they are because of their actions. They have to deal with that.

 

[Btstimpy]

If it were quite that simple, they'd probably have been invited by now. But, its not that simple. I know it, you know, they know it, everybody knows it.

I respectfully disagree that the ACC was at fault back in 2002-2003, even partially.

The ACC's original expansion was going well, until VA's governor, Mark Warner, stepped in on VPI's behalf. Thats when things went sideways. I don't blame Gov Warner for intervening. He was looking out for their best interests. Thats what he is supposed to do. Had he not done so, Miami, Syracuse, and, BC joining the ACC would've come off smoothly.

Truth be told, had Miami not demanded BC be included in the original expansion, they probably would not be in the ACC, either. It most likely would have been Pitt.

Whether anybody likes it or not, the lawsuit is a consideration. And, it will be for a long time, where UConn is concerned. When Blumenthal made it personal, he alienated not just ACC officials, and, university administrators. He alienated ACC fans, too. Many will never forget that. Hard feelings remain towards him, and, by connection, UConn. Fairly, or, unfairly.

Lets be brutally honest here...UNC and Duke aside, they don't excite any other original ACC member (and thats strictly for hoops). FSU neither. Every expansion the league has undertaken has been for football. This last one was no different. They bring nothing to us in that regard. No excitement, not buzz, no anticipation. So, we have no reason to even entertain inviting them.

Not to get side tracked because it's all water under the bridge now, but the delay that went on and the public spectacle of the site visits gave the faculties enough time at UNC and Duke to organize against expansion. James Moeser and Nan Keohane were both too weak to take on their faculties. Their changing their votes from yes to no at the end of the process is what made John Casteen's UVA vote matter. The irony in all this is that if Virginia Tech wasn't invited then, they would probably be in the SEC today. I know that the ACC wouldn't want that. I have a friend that worked in Governor Mark Warner's office, and the hate mail that Gov. Mark Warner got from UVA fans at the time was very vicious. I'm a UVA fan that wanted the Hokies. Most did not. It's a rivalry thing. Looking back on it, it was the right thing for the ACC and for the state of Virginia.

As I've posted in other posts, I'm not pushing UConn. I prefer other options, but I don't want that lawsuit to be what rules them out. That's all. I'm probably not going to get what I want. You and others reiterate that the lawsuit was personal.

 

[Resonator]

Just so I'm clear, is that reason hoops? Or something else I am missing?

No sir, you are not missing anything.

Every realignment decision UNC and Duke make is hoops driven. Which is exactly why they voted against the original expansion to 12 teams. Their goal was to protect the Big Four home-and-home hoops matchups at all costs.

FSU, Miami, Clemson, Tech, and, VPI are football-driven. NCSU and Wake have voted with the football schools from the beginning.

 

[Resonator]

Despite the fact that Cuse took a lousy shot when we ended up on the butt end of Virginia politics (as well as I recall some no votes from Duke and Carolina), we stayed out of the lawsuit, kept our mouths shut and lines of communication open while trying to add value by being considered "New York's Team". Pretty wise course of action I'd say. Now UConn ...

I think Syracuse's higher ups knew that they needed to keep the lines of communication open with the ACC, even though they got undercut in 2003. It was a wise move.

Don't take the 'no' vote from Carolina and Duke personally. They both voted against ANY expansion beyond 10 teams. They were for Miami getting an invite, and, that was it.

 

[orange79]

No sir, you are not missing anything.

Every realignment decision UNC and Duke make is hoops driven. Which is exactly why they voted against the original expansion to 12 teams. Their goal was to protect the Big Four home-and-home hoops matchups at all costs.

FSU, Miami, Clemson, Tech, and, VPI are football-driven. NCSU and Wake have voted with the football schools from the beginning.

Thanks, Res. Just wanted to make sure there was no other hidden agenda I was missing. Makes sense.

 

[Resonator]

Not to get side tracked because it's all water under the bridge now, but the delay that went on and the public spectacle of the site visits gave the faculties enough time at UNC and Duke to organize against expansion. James Moeser and Nan Keohane were both too weak to take on their faculties. Their changing their votes from yes to no at the end of the process is what made John Casteen's UVA vote matter. The irony in all this is that if Virginia Tech wasn't invited then, they would probably be in the SEC today. I know that the ACC wouldn't want that. I have a friend that worked in Governor Mark Warner's office, and the hate mail that Gov. Mark Warner got from UVA fans at the time was very vicious. I'm a UVA fan that wanted the Hokies. Most did not. It's a rivalry thing. Looking back on it, it was the right thing for the ACC and for the state of Virginia.

As I've posted in other posts, I'm not pushing UConn. I prefer other options, but I don't want that lawsuit to be what rules them out. That's all. I'm probably not going to get what I want. You and others reiterate that the lawsuit was personal.

You've been very fair in what you present. Please, don't think I am accusing you of pushing UConn.

It is probably unfair to judge them based upon the lawsuit. But, it is what it is.

What we've reiterated is that Blumenthal made the lawsuit personal, and, he did. And, it still resonates in this part of the league.

 

[Alsacs]

I honestly don't have a problem with UConn as they atleast are building a program on a good trajectory before hiring Pasqualoni, but they won't get into the ACC as long as their are other options equally available. That lawsuit was personnel for John Swofford, and UConn will only get into the ACC if the conference gets gutted. Their hoops program would compete yearly in the ACC, but Florida State, Clemson don't want another program builder in football so when they are competing for a playoff spot and the SEC is perceived tougher playing UConn, Syracuse, Boston College all in the same season would hurt them unless they were undefeated. Honestly, if and when the ACC adds a 16th team there are 4 teams that should be discussed.

1. Penn State-long shot that brings 5 star football/ 2 star basketball, but they are ideal and if you put them with Notre Dame, Pittsburgh, Louisville that is a good yearly pod.

2. West Virginia- that brings 4 star football/ 3 star basketball they would bring their state, and fit geographically and would create a good pod with Pittsburgh, Virginia, Virginia Tech, but their online fanbase destroyed their chances without SEVERE reconciliation from their administration.

3. Cincinnati/UConn. Cincinnati would bring 3 star football/3 star basketball Ohio, rivalry with Louisville and could create a pod with Pitt and Notre Dame or Virginia, Virginia Tech. They have multiple BCS appearances and have an NFL stadium to alleviate their small on campus stadium for big games. UConn brings 5 star basketball/2.5 star football, but the damage from the lawsuit will have to be forgiven for UConn to get in. I think UConn should send a letter to the ACC asking what it would take to get that lawsuit forgiven.

 

[Btstimpy]

Here's an interesting interview with Gene Smith from Ohio State. These guys in the Big Ten are still considering expansion. At the same time he's comfortable at 14. So I guess the Big Ten will at least have to pause for a while. He also wants the Big 5 Conferences to form their own NCAA division and operate on their own rules. He doesn't want Ohio State to have the same rules as Middle Tennessee State, and he doesn't see Eastern Michigan being competitive with Michigan. He makes an interesting point.

http://buckeyextra.dispatch.com/content/stories/2013/05/05/0505-ohio-state-gene-smith-interview.html

 

[Btstimpy]

I honestly don't have a problem with UConn as they atleast are building a program on a good trajectory before hiring Pasqualoni, but they won't get into the ACC as long as their are other options equally available. That lawsuit was personnel for John Swofford, and UConn will only get into the ACC if the conference gets gutted. Their hoops program would compete yearly in the ACC, but Florida State, Clemson don't want another program builder in football so when they are competing for a playoff spot and the SEC is perceived tougher playing UConn, Syracuse, Boston College all in the same season would hurt them unless they were undefeated. Honestly, if and when the ACC adds a 16th team there are 4 teams that should be discussed.

1. Penn State-long shot that brings 5 star football/ 2 star basketball, but they are ideal and if you put them with Notre Dame, Pittsburgh, Louisville that is a good yearly pod.

2. West Virginia- that brings 4 star football/ 3 star basketball they would bring their state, and fit geographically and would create a good pod with Pittsburgh, Virginia, Virginia Tech, but their online fanbase destroyed their chances without SEVERE reconciliation from their administration.

3. Cincinnati/UConn. Cincinnati would bring 3 star football/3 star basketball Ohio, rivalry with Louisville and could create a pod with Pitt and Notre Dame or Virginia, Virginia Tech. They have multiple BCS appearances and have an NFL stadium to alleviate their small on campus stadium for big games. UConn brings 5 star basketball/2.5 star football, but the damage from the lawsuit will have to be forgiven for UConn to get in. I think UConn should send a letter to the ACC asking what it would take to get that lawsuit forgiven.

I'd be happy with any of these, and I like them in the order you present. WVU will have to do some serious grovelling, but they would be a good athletic fit. And UConn needs to make amends, and they should get started right away.

I also think South Florida is not out of the question because of the Tampa market. It is also a school that is going to focus on football. In the last go around when Louisville was invited, I saw USF's name show up in some reports at being considered. I looked at their home game attendance from last season, and it's pretty good (in the 38,000+ range). It's better than Cincinnati's. And their program is almost as young as Connecticut's. It's a huge school, so there could be upside.

 

[Resonator]

I honestly don't have a problem with UConn as they atleast are building a program on a good trajectory before hiring Pasqualoni, but they won't get into the ACC as long as their are other options equally available. That lawsuit was personnel for John Swofford, and UConn will only get into the ACC if the conference gets gutted. Their hoops program would compete yearly in the ACC, but Florida State, Clemson don't want another program builder in football so when they are competing for a playoff spot and the SEC is perceived tougher playing UConn, Syracuse, Boston College all in the same season would hurt them unless they were undefeated. Honestly, if and when the ACC adds a 16th team there are 4 teams that should be discussed.

You just spelled out UConn football exactly, and, why the ACC's football-first schools are so dead set against them. Its another basketball-first school, with football program that has just around a decade in FBS. That won't give them any reason whatsoever to vote yes for UConn.

1. Penn State-long shot that brings 5 star football/ 2 star basketball, but they are ideal and if you put them with Notre Dame, Pittsburgh, Louisville that is a good yearly pod.

Agreed, the longest of longshots. The B10 adding UMD and Rutgers probably takes them off of the table permanently.

2. West Virginia- that brings 4 star football/ 3 star basketball they would bring their state, and fit geographically and would create a good pod with Pittsburgh, Virginia, Virginia Tech, but their online fanbase destroyed their chances without SEVERE reconciliation from their administration.

WVU has been rejected more times than UConn. And, their fanbase's very public, very negative commentary on the ACC over the past year probably permanently buried any chance they might have had at membership.

3. Cincinnati - would bring 3 star football/3 star basketball Ohio, rivalry with Louisville and could create a pod with Pitt and Notre Dame or Virginia, Virginia Tech. They have multiple BCS appearances and have an NFL stadium to alleviate their small on campus stadium for big games.

You spell out some very good reasons why Cincinnati would be a good add. That they have five 10-win seasons in football over the past six seasons is a MAJOR plus over UConn. Just like Louisville, I think UC would appeal to both football and basketball interests. The point about Ohio being a great recruiting ground for the league is also a plus for them.

4. UConn brings 5 star basketball/2.5 star football, but the damage from the lawsuit will have to be forgiven for UConn to get in. I think UConn should send a letter to the ACC asking what it would take to get that lawsuit forgiven.

Good point, and, a good description. UConn would help bring another connection to NYC, but, as you correctly point out, mediocre football hurts them. Plus, New England is not a great HS recruiting ground for football, or hoops.

Losing Maryland was tough. Theres pretty good talent in both FB and BB in the Baltimore/DC area. PSU and UC fit all of the criteria.

Overall good post, and, good points brought up.

 

[Toga]

I think Syracuse's higher ups knew that they needed to keep the lines of communication open with the ACC, even though they got undercut in 2003. It was a wise move.

Don't take the 'no' vote from Carolina and Duke personally. They both voted against ANY expansion beyond 10 teams. They were for Miami getting an invite, and, that was it.

Well it's all good now. It was those two votes though (IIRC) that gave Governor Warner the leverage to force the red headed stepchild into the league.

 

[Toga]

So the Big Ten was forced to add relative crap in order to prevent losing one of their star programs to the ACC. That's kind of a statement right there.

 

[Resonator]

Well it's all good now. It was those two votes though (IIRC) that gave Governor Warner the leverage to force the red headed stepchild into the league.

They were indeed the opening he needed to make his play. He was looking out for his own state institution. I respect that 100 percent.

 

[Resonator]

So the Big Ten was forced to add relative crap in order to prevent losing one of their star programs to the ACC. That's kind of a statement right there.

Even Wisconsin AD Barry Alvarez admitted as much. What would THAT have done for the ACC? It boggles the mind.

EDIT: UMD and Rutgers additions are not complete crap. Their athletic programs are crap right now. But, New Jersey is a great recruiting ground for HSFB and hoops. Ditto the Baltimore-DC corridor. Not to mention the potential viewers within both.

Relative crap is an apt description.

 

[HtownOrange]

Even Wisconsin AD Barry Alvarez admitted as much. What would THAT have done for the ACC? It boggles the mind.

EDIT: UMD and Rutgers additions are not complete crap. Their athletic programs are crap right now. But, New Jersey is a great recruiting ground for HSFB and hoops. Ditto the Baltimore-DC corridor. Not to mention the potential viewers within both.

Relative crap is an apt description.

Please extoll the virtues of Rutgers sports programs in entirety.

UMD is down but has largely been mediocre over the last 50 years, with some nice highs and significant lows.

 

[Resonator]

Please extoll the virtues of Rutgers sports programs in entirety.

UMD is down but has largely been mediocre over the last 50 years, with some nice highs and significant lows.

I stand corrected on Rutgers. They've never been much more than absolute junk across their entire athletic department. At least from my memory.

UMD is pretty much what you say. They've had some pretty good team in the 40 years I've watched. They've also had some pathetic ones, too. They do have national titles in football and basketball to their credit, at the very least. Lacrosse, too.

Next to Rutgers, UMD is USC...LOL.

 

[Whitey23]

@Ourand_SBJ
ACC Commissioner John Swofford to SBJ: “We’re now in a position to accelerate talks with ESPN...about a network.” http://bddy.me/10gBddd

 

[Alsacs]

@Ourand_SBJ
ACC Commissioner John Swofford to SBJ: “We’re now in a position to accelerate talks with ESPN...about a network.” http://bddy.me/10gBddd

That article basically confirms the eventually death of the Big XII IMO unless Texas turns the Longhorn network into a Big XII network and shares the profits with the rest of the conference. The ACC will take its time 1-2 years(or less depending on how much they have done) to do all the leg work on the Network like it took the SEC, and will have a good network with ESPN's backing to add additional money to the yearly ACC payout.

Seeing that the SEC network/ESPN venture is a 50-50 ownership similar to the B1G/FOX 51-49 deal. If I was the ACC I would offer ESPN a 50-50 stake in the ACC network and if the ACC has to give Raycom a 10% stake from the ACC's end I would give it to them as long as it contained a provision which stated that 10% stake could be bought out by the conference when it is able to generate enough revenue to pay for that share fairly. The ACC network has a legitimate chance to be successful as long as ESPN is getting an equal share and the ACC/Raycom take care of production and all ESPN has to do is flex its muscles with cable providers. With the SEC network ESPN is having to do all the production down here in Charlotte, but Raycom has their own studios in Charlotte as well which could help ESPN with production.
Thus, as long as Texas keeps the LHN around the Big XII is a ticking time bomb, and the WVU crazies are on the clock before their conference blows up when all B1G, SEC, ACC, Pac-12, and Texas receive conference network money while Oklahoma, Kansas(hello B1G) have to generate their revenue on 3rd tier rights which won't be able to match conference networks.

 

[HtownOrange]

I stand corrected on Rutgers. They've never been much more than absolute junk across their entire athletic department. At least from my memory.

UMD is pretty much what you say. They've had some pretty good team in the 40 years I've watched. They've also had some pathetic ones, too. They do have national titles in football and basketball to their credit, at the very least. Lacrosse, too.

Next to Rutgers, UMD is USC...LOL.

We've had to listen to all four of the new Rutgers fans tell us how great they are because they played in the first CFB game. Since then, they had a good season against no competition and haven't done anything since. Sorry, if I sounded snarky.

I would have no issue if UMD changed their mind and asked to stay. I much prefer them to UConn.

 

[Resonator]

We've had to listen to all four of the new Rutgers fans tell us how great they are because they played in the first CFB game. Since then, they had a good season against no competition and haven't done anything since. Sorry, if I sounded snarky.

No worries. I got what you meant. Rutgers are only in the Big 10 because they're in New Jersey. Theres no other reason. Nothing they say changes that. Let them talk their trash. Who cares? They're Rutgers, for goodness sakes.

I would have no issue if UMD changed their mind and asked to stay. I much prefer them to UConn.

The only thing about that is, we've already invited Louisville. And, they've accepted. Which is viewed by most folks inside and outside of the league as an upgrade. I doubt the rest of the ACC would welcome them back, anyway. Not with how their decision to leave all played out. There are nearly as many hard feelings towards them now as there are towards UConn. Maybe more. The league has already slapped them down for next season by not having any of the Triangle schools play basketball in College Park.

 

[Resonator]

That article basically confirms the eventually death of the Big XII IMO unless Texas turns the Longhorn network into a Big XII network and shares the profits with the rest of the conference. The ACC will take its time 1-2 years(or less depending on how much they have done) to do all the leg work on the Network like it took the SEC, and will have a good network with ESPN's backing to add additional money to the yearly ACC payout.

Texas is going to look out for Texas. I won't criticise them for looking out for their own best interests first, as thats what every school should do. But, when you're part of a league, you have partners in that organisation who deserve equal consideration. And, the ACC is the most equitable conference that there is. Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but, Pitt and Syracuse are getting a full share of league revenues right from the start? I believe thats true.

Nebraska didn't get that from the B10, and, I don't believe UMD or RU will, either. WVU didn't get that from the B12.

Seeing that the SEC network/ESPN venture is a 50-50 ownership similar to the B1G/FOX 51-49 deal. If I was the ACC I would offer ESPN a 50-50 stake in the ACC network and if the ACC has to give Raycom a 10% stake from the ACC's end I would give it to them as long as it contained a provision which stated that 10% stake could be bought out by the conference when it is able to generate enough revenue to pay for that share fairly. The ACC network has a legitimate chance to be successful as long as ESPN is getting an equal share and the ACC/Raycom take care of production and all ESPN has to do is flex its muscles with cable providers. With the SEC network ESPN is having to do all the production down here in Charlotte, but Raycom has their own studios in Charlotte as well which could help ESPN with production.

Having Raycom already in Charlotte should be a big plus for the formation of an ACCN. It certainly won't hurt.

Thus, as long as Texas keeps the LHN around the Big XII is a ticking time bomb, and the WVU crazies are on the clock before their conference blows up when all B1G, SEC, ACC, Pac-12, and Texas receive conference network money while Oklahoma, Kansas(hello B1G) have to generate their revenue on 3rd tier rights which won't be able to match conference networks.

How ironic would it be for all of the things the WVU crazies wished upon the ACC actually happened to them? I don't hate WVU, but, their fans' behavior sure makes it hard to like them, even a little bit.

 

[Btstimpy]

We've had to listen to all four of the new Rutgers fans tell us how great they are because they played in the first CFB game. Since then, they had a good season against no competition and haven't done anything since. Sorry, if I sounded snarky.

I would have no issue if UMD changed their mind and asked to stay. I much prefer them to UConn.

Dr. Wallace Loh won't be changing his mind. He's taking Maryland to his beloved Big Ten no matter what the rest of the Maryland faithful think.