Everyone who thinks or thought Jerami Grant should have stayed>>>>>

[billsin01]

I won't add to other posters replies to this other than to say that I had PLENTY of 8:30 classes at SU & they were filled w/ athletes from every varsity sport. It's a bit cynical to suggest that they are exempt from all normal scholastic obligations in their entirety, with no proof other than conjecture.
Also, I am ABSOLUTELY suggesting that it's absurd to turn down $850k, in your chosen profession, risking injury, and playing for free- as opposed to getting on-the-job training & fulfilling a life-long dream. Since when is $850k over 2 years considered chump change? That's VERY good money and theres not an SU grad alive who'd turn that down if some company offered it...so why should Jerami? He felt it was worth the risk, and made the jump. Again, a no-brainer. JMHO

First of all, I was making an off-handed remark at the relative importance of academics to kids who are going to be playing professional basketball. I'm not really judging anyone -- in fact, I'd suggest that they are smart to focus on sports if they truly have a professional future in it. But I really don't find it cynical at all to suggest that academics are an afterthought to most big-time professional athletes (i.e. football/basketball most notably). But secondly, these guys get preferred scheduling. I'm not knocking it but they certainly don't have to be taking 8:30 classes if they are scheduling before everyone else.

But, regardless, I honestly don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. The point is this -- there are plenty of us on this board who would turn down $870K today if there was a solid chance that that number doubled or more if you waited a year and worked hard on your craft. I'm not at all saying it's an easy decision nor am I criticizing Grant for it. BUT, the point is making the right decision for your career, not simply the 2014-2016 seasons. I would argue that playing 40 mpg, raising your stock in the draft and entering a professional league as a more polished product is at the very least a viable option which should not be summarily dismissed.

 

[billsin01]

I'm only going to comment on this part of your post to say that this is completely off-base. Debate the decision to turn pro all you want, but to throw a comment like this out there is disappointing to say the least.

With the practice and travel schedules that athletes face (in all sports), you might be surprised to learn that many are taking 8:30 am classes because that's what fits around all their obligations...and the ones who aren't taking 8:30 classes are usually the ones on teams who start practice at 6 or 7 am and can't make an 8:30.

I had no idea this comment would strike such a nerve. My world view is this: Most players at this level are basically professionals and therefore they don't care that much about sociology 101 with Dr. Thompson. I would even argue they probably are right to care more about their hoops career than their academic one. But, nevertheless, I do believe that academics are pretty far down on the priority list. I'm sorry for having that opinion but I don't really think there's much anyone could say to convince me otherwise.

 

[billsin01]

Slippery language and logic billsin01. Here's the deal.

1. Get paid as an apprentice with a professional employer and negotiate your contract extension based on your performance.
2. Remain as an amateur with the hope that a professional employer will offer you a better deal later.

Working for free in your chosen career cannot win. The amateur scholarship stipend is out of whack. The coulda, woulda, shoulda scenarios all cancel out. If Grant explodes because of his talent, he's further ahead negotiating as a professional on the inside.

Slippery? What am I a snake oil salesman? A couple of things -- first of all if Grant wants to go pro I'm fine with it. Even if he doesn't get drafted he can play in Europe or the D League. I don't care other than I'd rather have him playing for SU. But, ultimately, that's not something I'm going to begrudge someone.

But the sports landscape is littered with kids who turn down nice contracts and signing bonuses to retain amateur status. Probably 1/3 of the high schoolers drafted in the MLB draft opt for college vs. what are usually pretty solid pro contracts. And yes, several turn down contracts much better than the one Grant was offered. So, yes, this happens ... a lot.

Secondly, if Grant explodes because of his talent, Grant explodes because of his talent. That's great but he reaps the benefit in either scenario. The point is he's going to a league with very little history of developing talent. My opinion, which, again, doesn't need to be shared by Jerami Grant, is that the NBA is a league you want to enter prepared to be successful. You don't want to rely on honing your skills on the bench or in the D League.

Therefore, yes, I absolutely believe there are players that benefit from coming back for another year. It's a gamble, yes, but so is leaving and taking the short money.

What would i have done in his spot? I don't know, but I don't think I'd simply dismiss returning.

Regardless, I'm not using slippery logic in any way, shape or form.

 

[billsin01]

It all comes down to risk. Sure, Grant could have made more money if he played like he is playing now if he came back. Collegiate game is also much more physical, so there is no guarantee Grant could have withstood the beating.

In this route, he got his guaranteed money though and is ensured he is a millionaire. The real money is in that 2nd contract (while that 1.7 million of present earnings sucks to lose), it doesn't factor in all that much if he gets a Parsons type deal. By declaring now, he gets to that contract a year younger vs. if he came back to Syracuse.

For me, it all comes down to money. If you leave early, you better guarantee you get money. If you don't guarantee you get money, most of the time you made a bad decision.

I personally don't think it can be a bad decision if you get guaranteed money.

I'd love to have Jerami Grant's coin right now, but calling him a millionaire is a bit misleading. He will be one with his second deal. For now he's got a really nice nestegg and stands to live a very comfortable life, but once you're taking out agent's cut and other expenses along with a huge tax hit, he's not really all that close to being a millionaire in the truest sense of the word.

 

[Dave85]

https://vine.co/v/OTHWrz9hHAu

L I V I N the DREAM!!!

I could watch that all day.

I didn't think Grant was ready because he did not have a good outside shot. But he's doing pretty well now.

 

[Dave85]

I'd love to have Jerami Grant's coin right now, but calling him a millionaire is a bit misleading. He will be one with his second deal. For now he's got a really nice nestegg and stands to live a very comfortable life, but once you're taking out agent's cut and other expenses along with a huge tax hit, he's not really all that close to being a millionaire in the truest sense of the word.

I imagine he will make more in one year more than I can save in my lifetime at this point.

 

[billsin01]

In fact, Rak and Jerami might actually be taking away from each other in terms of play. Rak would likely be having a bit less spectacular season, and really, I'd rather see Rak with the ball. He's got actual low post moves and knows what to do once he gets the ball.

I don't know --- I have to think both players could be getting plenty of touches and impressing scouts. What Rak's done is incredible but there are PLENTY of touches to go around on this team.

 

[billsin01]

you cannot make that assumption . . . as far as we know, his current success is the result of being able to treat basketball as his full time job, rather than the hobby that the NCAA mandates it to be with its time restrictions. He comes back and he gets to spend 20 hours a week working on zone defense and slow tempo offense, and he's a year older and stale when the draft comes along stuffed with fresh 19 year olds.

Age matters; he might have improved his draft position, but I highly doubt he would have gotten into the lottery. Hell, Rakeem Christmas is at best a late first rounder right now, and it is very unlikely that Jerami would have had a better season than Roc has had thus far.

I don't know -- I don't see it this way at all. Again, I'm not arguing Grant did anything wrong. I would probably argue that I would have gone another route, but it is obviously his call and I'm cool with it.

Having said that, why the assumption that a phenomenal athlete like Grant would have come back and either A) limited how hard he was going to work (NCAA only mandates team activities, they don't care if a kid goes to a gym on his own) or B) grown stale and unattractive to scouts?

I think he could have drastically remade himself as a player -- you're telling me he couldn't have improved his handle slightly and started hitting a 15-footer? Added a post move?

And Rak being 'at best a first rounder' is roughly 9000000% better than Rak would have been viewed at the end of last year. And I would argue, as great an athlete as Rak is, he still pales in comparison to the explosiveness that grant possesses.

 

[billsin01]

I imagine he will make more in one year more than I can save in my lifetime at this point.

I'm not sure I understand. I don't think anyone is arguing that having someone pay you a nice chunk of coin for two years is a bad thing. But it's not like he's going to retire three years from now and count his piles of cash. I know a lot of guys who make very good money and they're still paying mortgages and working every day.

 

[Garbs]

Check out @Sixers's Tweet: https://twitter.com/Sixers/status/560614194551488513?s=09

 

[timkay99]

Having said that, why the assumption that a phenomenal athlete like Grant would have come back and either A) limited how hard he was going to work (NCAA only mandates team activities, they don't care if a kid goes to a gym on his own)

Because as a student athlete, you have a lot of other things taking up your time such as classes, homework, etc.

As a pro, you can devote 100 % of your energy to improving as a player (or in Jerami's case) getting stronger.

 

[OrangePA]

Big contract or not, I'm amazed at how well he's doing.

Me too.

 

[Full_Rebar]

If you read Ditota's article on Grant a couple of months ago, you'd see that he's got more time to work on his game in Philly. He has access to better training/nutrition and that's what's helped him gain weight and improve his overall game.

I know I'm a broken record for this, but SU needs to take some money and invest in better nutritional support for athletes. Other schools are doing this by having professionals who are developing individual nutrition programs.

 

[DoctorBombay]

First of all, I was making an off-handed remark at the relative importance of academics to kids who are going to be playing professional basketball. I'm not really judging anyone -- in fact, I'd suggest that they are smart to focus on sports if they truly have a professional future in it. But I really don't find it cynical at all to suggest that academics are an afterthought to most big-time professional athletes (i.e. football/basketball most notably). But secondly, these guys get preferred scheduling. I'm not knocking it but they certainly don't have to be taking 8:30 classes if they are scheduling before everyone else.

But, regardless, I honestly don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. The point is this -- there are plenty of us on this board who would turn down $870K today if there was a solid chance that that number doubled or more if you waited a year and worked hard on your craft. I'm not at all saying it's an easy decision nor am I criticizing Grant for it. BUT, the point is making the right decision for your career, not simply the 2014-2016 seasons. I would argue that playing 40 mpg, raising your stock in the draft and entering a professional league as a more polished product is at the very least a viable option which should not be summarily dismissed.

Agree that academics are an afterthought to "big-time professional athletes", but the hypocrisy of the system in place forces them to play the role of student, and therein lies the rub.
The institutions have their academic directives but when it comes to athletes, most everyone agrees that their role is little more than as a farm system for the professional leagues, especially bball and ftball. There are mutual benefits to both parties- exposure and recognition for players, financial considerations for the institutions. They all do this little dance and the idea is to act like that's NOT what's actually happening.

My position is that once a Jerami Grant or Tyler Ennis decides for himself that he has maxed out the "benefits" of this hypocritical system, ie; gotten ESPN and NBA exposure enough to warrant a good position in the draft, then they SHOULD make the leap, asap.
Each situation being different, they might decide to stay longer and keep playing along as "student-athlete", a role we all agree is bogus in most cases. But that decision whether good or bad is theirs alone, and is contingent among many other accompanying factors.
The naysayers, critics, or those who simply disagree with the chosen decision are sometimes proven right...but that doesn't preclude the individual's choice, nor does it confirm that there's a hard and fast rule on whether a kid should stay or go.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

If you read Ditota's article on Grant a couple of months ago, you'd see that he's got more time to work on his game in Philly. He has access to better training/nutrition and that's what's helped him gain weight and improve his overall game.

I know I'm a broken record for this, but SU needs to take some money and invest in better nutritional support for athletes. Other schools are doing this by having professionals who are developing individual nutrition programs.

BMK could have used this. We've got three players on the team right now who need this desperately. Love this idea.

 

[orange2win]

Slippery? What am I a snake oil salesman? A couple of things -- first of all if Grant wants to go pro I'm fine with it. Even if he doesn't get drafted he can play in Europe or the D League. I don't care other than I'd rather have him playing for SU. But, ultimately, that's not something I'm going to begrudge someone.

But the sports landscape is littered with kids who turn down nice contracts and signing bonuses to retain amateur status. Probably 1/3 of the high schoolers drafted in the MLB draft opt for college vs. what are usually pretty solid pro contracts. And yes, several turn down contracts much better than the one Grant was offered. So, yes, this happens ... a lot.

Secondly, if Grant explodes because of his talent, Grant explodes because of his talent. That's great but he reaps the benefit in either scenario. The point is he's going to a league with very little history of developing talent. My opinion, which, again, doesn't need to be shared by Jerami Grant, is that the NBA is a league you want to enter prepared to be successful. You don't want to rely on honing your skills on the bench or in the D League.

Therefore, yes, I absolutely believe there are players that benefit from coming back for another year. It's a gamble, yes, but so is leaving and taking the short money.

What would i have done in his spot? I don't know, but I don't think I'd simply dismiss returning.

Regardless, I'm not using slippery logic in any way, shape or form.

Relax, you are not a snake oil salesman. I too can concoct self serving reasons in support of my desire that they stay. I agree with you that it is not always best that these kids jump at the first opportunity. Each situation has to be considered separately.

I feel bad that the system does not provide independent consultants, paid for by the NCAA and/or NBA (or even a volunteer organization), to give these kids sound economic guidance. They are naïve, often from low income situations and desperately in need of help with such life changing decisions. Fortunately for Grant and Ennis, they had in-family professionals to advise them, who knew the score and the odds.

Kids left with only their coach for advice are compromised. Most coaches first want what is best for themselves and second what pleases their employers. They are not unbiased representatives.

 

[Briancuse]

I imagine he will make more in one year more than I can save in my lifetime at this point.

Thats not really the point though. Donte Greene probably made more in a year than I will save in my lifetime, doesn't mean it was the right decision.

 

[Dave85]

I'm not sure I understand. I don't think anyone is arguing that having someone pay you a nice chunk of coin for two years is a bad thing. But it's not like he's going to retire three years from now and count his piles of cash. I know a lot of guys who make very good money and they're still paying mortgages and working every day.

Back when we had 9% interest rates in the 90s it just seemed to me I was making a whole lot more money than I am today. On paper I am making more today. But back in the 90s it seemed I was able to buy whole lot more with my take home pay!

 

[timkay99]

But the sports landscape is littered with kids who turn down nice contracts and signing bonuses to retain amateur status. Probably 1/3 of the high schoolers drafted in the MLB draft opt for college vs. what are usually pretty solid pro contracts. And yes, several turn down contracts much better than the one Grant was offered. So, yes, this happens ... a lot.

The kids who tend to turn down MLB for college might turn down big money at times, but this number is nowhere near what you think it is.

Many times, these kids are turning down guaranteed low 5 figure signing bonuses to go to college, especially after the first 10 rounds. Even your elite ones are turning down mid-level 6 figures.

The number of kids who have turned down 7 figure salaries from the MLB draft and go to college can be counted on one hand per year.

If you are looking at the 2014 MLB Draft, your guy who turned down Grant money to go to school was Jacob Bukauskas. No one else turned down 7 figures from what I heard.

Astros situation kind of screwed that up (if Aiken was signed, they likely would have landed Nix and Marshall for 7 figures each). Not a coincidence all 3 of those arms reneged on their 4 year college commit and have gone JUCO to re enter the draft nexy year.

 

[RandygoCuse]

You're so noble!

I don't agree with your line of thinking from a logical (not emotional) standpoint. That doesn't mean I'm being selfish. It means I think Grant could have (would have) made more money in the long run by staying in school one more year.

Agreed - When I say I think a guy should have stayed, I'm trying to look from his perspective. For example, I don't think Flynn should have stayed. He got out when his stock was hottest and he knew he was going to go high. Waiters left at the right time too (although I admit I didn't think he was going to go so high when he declared). I don't think Greene should have left because he would have made more money in the long run. I think that's the case for Grant as well. Now I have no proof for this at all. IMO, the toughest decision is for those who are projected to be late first rounders. Lottery picks should go early, 2nd rounders should stay. But it's a tough call to give up guaranteed money on the possibility of moving up.

 

[kirbivore]

If you read Ditota's article on Grant a couple of months ago, you'd see that he's got more time to work on his game in Philly. He has access to better training/nutrition and that's what's helped him gain weight and improve his overall game.

I know I'm a broken record for this, but SU needs to take some money and invest in better nutritional support for athletes. Other schools are doing this by having professionals who are developing individual nutrition programs.

another reason to fire Will Hicks

 

[billsin01]

The kids who tend to turn down MLB for college might turn down big money at times, but this number is nowhere near what you think it is.

Many times, these kids are turning down guaranteed low 5 figure signing bonuses to go to college, especially after the first 10 rounds. Even your elite ones are turning down mid-level 6 figures.

The number of kids who have turned down 7 figure salaries from the MLB draft and go to college can be counted on one hand per year.

If you are looking at the 2014 MLB Draft, your guy who turned down Grant money to go to school was Jacob Bukauskas. No one else turned down 7 figures from what I heard.

Astros situation kind of screwed that up (if Aiken was signed, they likely would have landed Nix and Marshall for 7 figures each). Not a coincidence all 3 of those arms reneged on their 4 year college commit and have gone JUCO to re enter the draft nexy year.

It's much more rare these days because teams that want to invest in the draft are hindered by the signing bonus cap. Prior to 2012 it happened quite a bit more often I was making a list of guys who turned down big money that I could remember off the top of my head (Tyler Beede, Matt Harvey, Matt Harrington, Alex Meyer, Ryne Stanek, Mark Appel) but then I stumbled upon this article.

Bottom line -- it happens fairly often in MLB and remember, turning down a signing bonus in MLB often means you're not eligible again for three years AND that even if you do sign then you've still got to work your way through the minors, a process that rarely takes less then ~3 years or so.

Regardless, I'm fine with Grant going for the coin if that's what he wanted. I simply don't buy the fact that he couldn't have improved his draft stock and been in a better spot heading into the '15 draft and beyond.

 

[billsin01]

Agree that academics are an afterthought to "big-time professional athletes", but the hypocrisy of the system in place forces them to play the role of student, and therein lies the rub.
The institutions have their academic directives but when it comes to athletes, most everyone agrees that their role is little more than as a farm system for the professional leagues, especially bball and ftball. There are mutual benefits to both parties- exposure and recognition for players, financial considerations for the institutions. They all do this little dance and the idea is to act like that's NOT what's actually happening.

My position is that once a Jerami Grant or Tyler Ennis decides for himself that he has maxed out the "benefits" of this hypocritical system, ie; gotten ESPN and NBA exposure enough to warrant a good position in the draft, then they SHOULD make the leap, asap.
Each situation being different, they might decide to stay longer and keep playing along as "student-athlete", a role we all agree is bogus in most cases. But that decision whether good or bad is theirs alone, and is contingent among many other accompanying factors.
The naysayers, critics, or those who simply disagree with the chosen decision are sometimes proven right...but that doesn't preclude the individual's choice, nor does it confirm that there's a hard and fast rule on whether a kid should stay or go.

Listen, I'm good with this. Obviously it's not my choice nor my right to suggest these kids are 'supposed' to do one or another. My only point was the very basic one that getting a couple mill over the course of four years is not necessarily always the best path to a long NBA career, which I would guess is the goal for most of these kids.

Did Grant make a bad decision? I tend to feel that way, but I can see the argument either way. I just don't think it was a black-and-white issue.

 

[LennX6]

Or he could have gotten undercut by Meeks on a put back jam and broke his neck. I'd take the money.

That is what I remember the second half of last year, Jerami on his back under the basket. He was constantly getting wiped out underneath. Kris Joseph and him should have worn helmets and pads with the hits they got.

 

[timkay99]

It's much more rare these days because teams that want to invest in the draft are hindered by the signing bonus cap. Prior to 2012 it happened quite a bit more often I was making a list of guys who turned down big money that I could remember off the top of my head (Tyler Beede, Matt Harvey, Matt Harrington, Alex Meyer, Ryne Stanek, Mark Appel) but then I stumbled upon this article.

Bottom line -- it happens fairly often in MLB and remember, turning down a signing bonus in MLB often means you're not eligible again for three years AND that even if you do sign then you've still got to work your way through the minors, a process that rarely takes less then ~3 years or so.

Regardless, I'm fine with Grant going for the coin if that's what he wanted. I simply don't buy the fact that he couldn't have improved his draft stock and been in a better spot heading into the '15 draft and beyond.

It doesn't happen anymore in MLB is my point. It used to happen a lot b/c of the lack of slot.

Now that it has become more similar to the NBA system, kids don't have the opportunity to turn down that money b/c you have to sign your first 10 picks to utilize any left over money (or to go over). This is why the Astros not signing Aiken had reverberations through their entire class.

I believe any comparison before MLB had its signing cap (which the NBA has) is a true apples to oranges comparison.