FSU vs The ACC

[elimunelson]

This is not what conference affiliation is. It’s *mutually* beneficial to both the school and the other schools in the conference. It’s like saying someone is selfish for getting married because it benefits them without mentioning the shared sacrifice, the benefits to the spouse, the power a couple has vs an individual.

ND is the single guy living life how he wants. Free? Yep. Selfish? 100%. Do we look side eye at them and kind of wish we could do it that way when married life is hard? Sure.

But don’t equate the two.

It's absolutely what it is. Everyone is out for themself. I haven't seen anyone, with the exception of ND, to turn down MORE money. Syracuse would leave tomorrow if BIG invited and the GOR was palatable to do so.

We are strategically alligned with the ACC because it's the best we can hope for conference wise. The Big East was mutually beneficial until it wasn't because we didn't get paid as much.

We're all mercenaries. Not sure that's a bad thing either unless the conferences shared the bag.

 

[HtownOrange]

This is not what conference affiliation is. It’s *mutually* beneficial to both the school and the other schools in the conference. It’s like saying someone is selfish for getting married because it benefits them without mentioning the shared sacrifice, the benefits to the spouse, the power a couple has vs an individual.

ND is the single guy living life how he wants. Free? Yep. Selfish? 100%. Do we look side eye at them and kind of wish we could do it that way when married life is hard? Sure.

But don’t equate the two.

Conference affiliation is mutually beneficial, meaning it is in the school's best interest (selfish). That is why individual schools join conferences. In this instance, FSU is being selfish demanding more money and demanding to get out for a pittance instead of the terms FSU - and every ACC team - agreed to. FSU is not "living the single life", in fact they proudly proclaim that the ACC is not good enough for them while expecting an SEC invite

The SEC or even a B1G invite can happen if:

1) FSU gets its way in court. (Low likelihood based on law).
2) FSU waits until 2036.
3) FSU pays the exit fee AND buys back their broadcast rights.
4) An hybrid of 2 & 3.

 

[Scooch]

If it's a bad deal going forward, it's a bad deal.

FSU was bad for 5 years. What relevance does that have? Are they and Clemson supposed to carry the league?

It's like being in a partnership and you're putting in the time and effort and your partner isn't. Do you want out of that relationship? Absolutely.

It may or may not be a bad deal going forward. It's likely, but not certain. And yes, FSU and Clemson are supposed to carry the league. As should Miami, and to a lesser extent VaTech. The latter have been colossal flops.

If a school professes to be an elite program, and get all the benefits that come from it, then they have to live up to that on the field. FSU didn't for many years. Clemson appears to be headed in that direction.

Duke and UNC are supposed to carry the hoops side of the conference. SU was supposed to as well and has been a major flop in that regard.

Regardless, FSU and Clemson signed a contract. Twice. The ACC isn't a "relationship". The ACC is a legally binding configuration. Although to be fair, FSU and Clemson are acting like teenagers in a relationship, that's for sure.

 

[Scooch]

This is not what conference affiliation is. It’s *mutually* beneficial to both the school and the other schools in the conference. It’s like saying someone is selfish for getting married because it benefits them without mentioning the shared sacrifice, the benefits to the spouse, the power a couple has vs an individual.

ND is the single guy living life how he wants. Free? Yep. Selfish? 100%. Do we look side eye at them and kind of wish we could do it that way when married life is hard? Sure.

But don’t equate the two.

Do you think that ND's association with the ACC is not beneficial to the conference?

 

[TerryD]

Sigh…this could all go away tomorrow if Notre Dame joins for football

Going forward, ND will receive $50-60 million a year from NBC and at least $23 million a year from the ACC/ESPN/ACC Network. (ND gets a full ACC Network share, which keeps going up)

ND will also receive over $18-19 million a year every year it makes the playoffs (including a $6 million a year independents only bonus) and $12-13 million when it does not.

That will total $90-100 million a year each year in TV/conference/playoff money.

That is P2 level money and ND didn't have to sue anyone, pay an exit fee or a GOR buyout or even join a football conference to make that much.

Jack Swarbrick did a lot of work the past couple of years to set an independent ND up very well.

How much would ESPN pay ND, total, if it fully joined the ACC for football? How much increase would the other schools get? From what?

Would ND take a financial haircut to join the ACC in full ? If so, how much?

If ND didn't take that haircut, where would the extra money to benefit other ACC members come from?

Would ND get even more money if it joined in full? If not, then.....

It is likely not financially feasible for ND to join the ACC in football.

That is before we even get to the fact that it strongly wants to stay independent and not join any conference at all, ever.

 

[kcsu]

Sankey pulled off a special feat in the creation of the expanded playoff. In one fell swoop he guaranteed there would be more than one SEC team in the playoff and that ND would remain an independent by having the stipulation that a team that wasn't a conference champion could be in the playoff and that team would not get a 1st round bye (would be seeded 5-12). ND will gladly trade maxing out as the #5 seed in return for keeping its independence. They know it means having to play the #4 and #1 seeds, but they're good with that.

Unless we get ND to join as a full-time member which the ACC will not be able to achieve than we want everything to remain the same. ND is in for all other sports. ND plays a ton of games against ACC teams. This is strong for the ACC it adds a significant amount of content for the ACCN and lots of marquee match ups for football. The ACC isn't going to fold and will remain in the third position. I fully expect us to take a swing at Big 12 teams when their contract is up as it is in ESPNs interest to do so.

 

[WoadBlue]

Unless we get ND to join as a full-time member which the ACC will not be able to achieve than we want everything to remain the same. ND is in for all other sports. ND plays a ton of games against ACC teams. This is strong for the ACC it adds a significant amount of content for the ACCN and lots of marquee match ups for football. The ACC isn't going to fold and will remain in the third position. I fully expect us to take a swing at Big 12 teams when their contract is up as it is in ESPNs interest to do so.

No matter what the commissioners of SEC and BT want to tell the Big 12 to make it feel all puffed up, right now based on money and total support from a network, there are only 2 truly MAJOR conferences. And only the ACC has the ability to retain its status as Major.

One thing all that means is that as of now, not a single school located in MST is in a Major conference. Neither SEC nor BT have even the lightest need of anything, TV fans or ticket buying fans or recruits, from MST. But the ACC definitely could use Utah, Arizona, and Arizona ST, especially as all 3 have large numbers of alums living in CA. That trio of large AAU schools would make the perfect geographic bridge between Dallas and CA.

I think the ACC must prepare for a future of saving itself as MAJOR with aggression to expand ibti extra large size (perhaps even 24) by taking from the Big 12 when its deal is up (and perhaps also adding AAU member USF with its 50K students). And doing that would give ESPN, or after 2036 a new number of teams to show from across all 4 times zones. That also would require the ACC to be involved with an Amazon or Apple top show the rest of the huge inventory. Those entities almost certainly would pay only for numbers drawn, meaning an FSU would always get much more from them than would a Wake or BC.

I do not see the 17 team ACC surviving even to 2036 intact and thus a truly Major conference. The ACC must be aggressive to save itself.

 

[WoadBlue]

Unless we get ND to join as a full-time member which the ACC will not be able to achieve than we want everything to remain the same. ND is in for all other sports. ND plays a ton of games against ACC teams. This is strong for the ACC it adds a significant amount of content for the ACCN and lots of marquee match ups for football. The ACC isn't going to fold and will remain in the third position. I fully expect us to take a swing at Big 12 teams when their contract is up as it is in ESPNs interest to do so.

ND has a powerful vested interest in wanting the ACC to survive as Major and with the ACCN doing good business. But ND likely will assume that it should do nothing to help that situation. That ND attitude is always going to triply piss off FSU and Clemson people.

So if ND refuses to take any step top help (say, in playing 6 ACC football games per year with the expanded league size), and FSU and Clemson and perhaps others se that as ND being too damned selfish, do you tell ND to either play that 6th game or else join the BE for basketball and non-revenues, or do you allow valuable ACC football members to walk?

At some point ND desire to remain an island having no concern for anything else can cause major trouble for the ACC.

 

[DoctorBombay]

If it's a bad deal going forward, it's a bad deal.

FSU was bad for 5 years. What relevance does that have? Are they and Clemson supposed to carry the league?

It's like being in a partnership and you're putting in the time and effort and your partner isn't. Do you want out of that relationship? Absolutely.

"Bad deal" being relative to what though? The market has changed and what was once a very good deal has become onerous and stagnant, relative to the Big 2.
But I've had plenty of contracts that I've hated because of changed conditions, and unless stipulated, I was required to live w/ the terms. You can't cry foul after the fact because your deal is no longer top notch. How many star athletes wanna renegotiate because the money structure has changed? Yeah, you can apply pressure, hold out, sue, or whatever, but you don't get a do over because you no longer like the terms. And, if the reverse had happened and the deal was in your favor, does the other party call for a cancellation as well?

 

[RCDICK44]

ND has a powerful vested interest in wanting the ACC to survive as Major and with the ACCN doing good business. But ND likely will assume that it should do nothing to help that situation. That ND attitude is always going to triply piss off FSU and Clemson people.

So if ND refuses to take any step top help (say, in playing 6 ACC football games per year with the expanded league size), and FSU and Clemson and perhaps others se that as ND being too damned selfish, do you tell ND to either play that 6th game or else join the BE for basketball and non-revenues, or do you allow valuable ACC football members to walk?

At some point ND desire to remain an island having no concern for anything else can cause major trouble for the ACC.

It's just mind bogling to me why ND remains to be put on a pedistal all of the time. They aren't the team that they were in the 30's thru the 50's as much as they would like to be.

 

[elimunelson]

ND has a powerful vested interest in wanting the ACC to survive as Major and with the ACCN doing good business. But ND likely will assume that it should do nothing to help that situation. That ND attitude is always going to triply piss off FSU and Clemson people.

So if ND refuses to take any step top help (say, in playing 6 ACC football games per year with the expanded league size), and FSU and Clemson and perhaps others se that as ND being too damned selfish, do you tell ND to either play that 6th game or else join the BE for basketball and non-revenues, or do you allow valuable ACC football members to walk?

At some point ND desire to remain an island having no concern for anything else can cause major trouble for the ACC.

FSU and Clemson people wish they were ND people and the power/prestige/impact they hold on the American public. ND is standard oil, jp morgan, NY Yankees like brand.

Clemson and FSU are good football programs. The ND power brokers are probably laughing at their incompetence and stupidity in their nation wide ivory towers.

 

[kcsu]

It's just mind bogling to me why ND remains to be put on a pedistal all of the time. They aren't the team that they were in the 30's thru the 50's as much as they would like to be.

fan base

 

[rrlbees]

Phillips Rips Clemson and FSU

CHARLOTTE – As the 2024 ACC Football Kickoff got underway in Charlotte on Monday, ACC Commissioner Jim Phillips addressed Clemson’s and Florida State’s pending lawsuits against the conference. “Wit…

theclemsoninsider.com

 

[TheCusian]

It's absolutely what it is. Everyone is out for themself. I haven't seen anyone, with the exception of ND, to turn down MORE money. Syracuse would leave tomorrow if BIG invited and the GOR was palatable to do so.

We are strategically alligned with the ACC because it's the best we can hope for conference wise. The Big East was mutually beneficial until it wasn't because we didn't get paid as much.

We're all mercenaries. Not sure that's a bad thing either unless the conferences shared the bag.

So in your reading of things, the ACC gained nothing in adding Syracuse? The members voted us in because they what, felt bad?

ND is choosing to stay independent and it’s a selfish move that absolutely works for them. We joined a conference selfishly *but by its very nature of being a relationship defined by equal shares, contracts, GOR, etc* makes us in it together. Which is unselfish.

That FSU and Clemson are looking to remove itself from its obligations now *is* selfish because it breaks the agreement. If we did the same thing, we’d be open to that same criticism.

The point remains, what ND’s status and Syracuses status are not the same. They are not fully in a mutually beneficial arrangement for football.

 

[TheCusian]

Do you think that ND's association with the ACC is not beneficial to the conference?

To keep my analogy alive, they are like friends with benefits or a mistress lol

Tie the knot, ND

 

[elimunelson]

So in your reading of things, the ACC gained nothing in adding Syracuse? The members voted us in because they what, felt bad?

ND is choosing to stay independent and it’s a selfish move that absolutely works for them. We joined a conference selfishly *but by its very nature of being a relationship defined by equal shares, contracts, GOR, etc* makes us in it together. Which is unselfish.

That FSU and Clemson are looking to remove itself from its obligations now *is* selfish because it breaks the agreement. If we did the same thing, we’d be open to that same criticism.

The point remains, what ND’s status and Syracuses status are not the same. They are not fully in a mutually beneficial arrangement for football.

WE broke the agreement with the Big East. The numbers weren't big to stop us from doing so but we left our partners in the dust. Whether it fits the narrative or not, we're guilty as anyone of creating the reallignment shuffle. It's the hypocricy that we live in now.

I don't blame FSU/Clemson at all. They are going to look foolish because they shot before aiming. Completely dumb.

 

[orangecuse]

fan base

Interesting, considering the relatively small size (eliteist) type private school that it is.

For the most part, I agree with the poster in which you replied. ND hasn't anywhere near the stature and weight it once carried in the US, parallel to the causual related Catholic religion, which has continued its general decrease and, let's just say, significance in once possessed in this country.

As a 100% Italian, raised strict Roman Catholic, opining from my circle/experiences of familia, etc. Most of my elder relatives, etc., including my today 94 year old dad, were/are huge ND fans, strictly due to its Catholic identity, ties, etc. However, this affiliation, interest, etc. doesn't exist anywhere close to the same degree with my generation of relatives, and certainly not with the younger.

Being a relatively small private, along with the mentioned general decrease in the Catholic significance, et al, I imagine moving forward, ND's noteworthiness overall will likely only continue to fade as well in the general realm.

 

[elimunelson]

Interesting, considering the relatively small size (eliteist) type private school that it is.

For the most part, I agree with the poster in which you replied. ND hasn't anywhere near the stature and weight it once carried in the US, parallel to the causual related Catholic religion, which has continued its general decrease and, let's just say, significance in once possessed in this country.

As a 100% Italian, raised strict Roman Catholic, opining from my circle/experiences of familia, etc. Most of my elder relatives, etc., including my today 94 year old dad, were/are huge ND fans, strictly due to its Catholic identity, ties, etc. However, this affiliation, interest, etc. doesn't exist anywhere close to the same degree with my generation of relatives, and certainly not with the younger.

Being a relatively small private, along with the mentioned general decrease in the Catholic significance, et al, I imagine moving forward, ND's noteworthiness overall will likely only continue to fade as well in the general realm.

If that's the case why are we constantly arguing about the impact of this tiny catholic school in central Indiana that really is going to be a lowgrade UCF by 2040?

I think ND will enhance its reputation going forward because, as i've seen with other jesuit schools in the northeast (hello Nova, HC, GTOWN), the dogma is something people are looking for and want in this crazy world we live in.

I think the Catholic identity is going to have a large comeback based on how nutty colleges are getting nationally. Just my two cents (not to dip my toes in anything political)

 

[supp]

Interesting, considering the relatively small size (eliteist) type private school that it is.

For the most part, I agree with the poster in which you replied. ND hasn't anywhere near the stature and weight it once carried in the US, parallel to the causual related Catholic religion, which has continued its general decrease and, let's just say, significance in once possessed in this country.

As a 100% Italian, raised strict Roman Catholic, opining from my circle/experiences of familia, etc. Most of my elder relatives, etc., including my today 94 year old dad, were/are huge ND fans, strictly due to its Catholic identity, ties, etc. However, this affiliation, interest, etc. doesn't exist anywhere close to the same degree with my generation of relatives, and certainly not with the younger.

Being a relatively small private, along with the mentioned general decrease in the Catholic significance, et al, I imagine moving forward, ND's noteworthiness overall will likely only continue to fade as well in the general realm.

Good point! It's a shortsighted and narcissistic position for some ND fans to take that what we want and like is what everyone likes and is going to get forever and ever. It's whistling past the graveyard and doesn't really set ND up for the long-term future. But I suppose everyone in major college sports is kind of up shitt's creek and busy denying it. ND could be part of the solution to the crisis to come but it doesn't look like it's going to go that way. We'll have to wait for some of the old guard to die off before we all face the music. Eerie parallels to US politics in that regard. We're all somehow held captive by a particular generation that just won't let go.

 

[orlandoorange]

It may or may not be a bad deal going forward. It's likely, but not certain. And yes, FSU and Clemson are supposed to carry the league. As should Miami, and to a lesser extent VaTech. The latter have been colossal flops.

If a school professes to be an elite program, and get all the benefits that come from it, then they have to live up to that on the field. FSU didn't for many years. Clemson appears to be headed in that direction.

Duke and UNC are supposed to carry the hoops side of the conference. SU was supposed to as well and has been a major flop in that regard.

Regardless, FSU and Clemson signed a contract. Twice. The ACC isn't a "relationship". The ACC is a legally binding configuration. Although to be fair, FSU and Clemson are acting like teenagers in a relationship, that's for sure.

Does the contract say they're supposed to carry the league and get a larger share for doing so?

We signed a contract with Carrier. It was a bad deal, eventually SU wanted out and got out.

It doesn't matter how FSU acts, this isn't any different.

If the shoe was on the other foot, as it was with Carrier, this board would be all in on getting out.

 

[DoctorBombay]

Does the contract say they're supposed to carry the league and get a larger share for doing so?

We signed a contract with Carrier. It was a bad deal, eventually SU wanted out and got out.

It doesn't matter how FSU acts, this isn't any different.

If the shoe was on the other foot, as it was with Carrier, this board would be all in on getting out.

"Wanting" to get out because things have changed, is not enough of a criteria to break a contract. They weren't biotching and moaning when they signed, and neither were we when we signed w/ Carrier.
It's the nature of bizness. There are avenues to get out of the contract if they really want out. A big "Fkc u, pay me" from the ACC will more than suffice.

 

[TexanMark]

To keep my analogy alive, they are like friends with benefits or a mistress lol

Tie the knot, ND

ND has no incentive to tie the knot. They are in the cat bird seat.

 

[Scooch]

To keep my analogy alive, they are like friends with benefits or a mistress lol

Tie the knot, ND

They won't because they don't need to.

And we've already noted that your analogy doesn't work.

 

[Scooch]

Does the contract say they're supposed to carry the league and get a larger share for doing so?

We signed a contract with Carrier. It was a bad deal, eventually SU wanted out and got out.

It doesn't matter how FSU acts, this isn't any different.

If the shoe was on the other foot, as it was with Carrier, this board would be all in on getting out.

We didn't sign a contract with Carrier. Carrier didn't sign a naming rights deal. They donated money and got their name on the building, the same way the Newhouse family did and got their name on the Communications school.

SU didn't break a contract with Carrier. Rather, they approached Carrier about relinquishing the benefit that came with their donation. Carrier agreed.

SU now has a contract with JMA Wireless.

It's literally and legally not the same thing.

 

[Scooch]

If that's the case why are we constantly arguing about the impact of this tiny catholic school in central Indiana that really is going to be a lowgrade UCF by 2040?

Because some people here are unhinged when it comes to ND.

Their POV is (a) ND is soooo valuable that if we get them to join the ACC for football it'd be super-duper-alley-ooper awesome and the conference would be set for life; and (b) if they don't then they totally suck and we should kick them out because they're a worthless program.

It makes perfect sense... if you have a concussion.