Future Campus Framework Discussion

[sutomcat]

From a quick look at the new document, I don't see any linkage between Archbold Gym and the Dome. Looks like that part is gone.

There are a bunch of pictures that include the Dome scattered throughout the document.

From them, I see no hotel or other building planned to be built on the western side of the Dome.

Looks like they are planning to widen the concourses on all sides. The northern side looks like it is getting the most room.

The new roof itself does not look anything like the one leaked version. Sometimes it has panels like the existing roof (I suspect that is just laziness on the part of the illustrator) and sometimes the roof has a smooth arch to it kind of like Manley Field House (only on a building with 8 sides). I don't see any evidence of ETFE planned for the roof or parts of the endzone walls.

However, a new roof is still being planned along with accessibility improvements for ADA.

Overall, not much in the way of news here. I guess the biggest news is that the renovation to the Dome remains part of the overall plan.

 

[SUFan44]

From a quick look at the new document, I don't see any linkage between Archbold Gym and the Dome. Looks like that part is gone.

There are a bunch of pictures that include the Dome scattered throughout the document.

From them, I see no hotel or other building planned to be built on the western side of the Dome.

Looks like they are planning to widen the concourses on all sides. The northern side looks like it is getting the most room.

The new roof itself does not look anything like the one leaked version. Sometimes it has panels like the existing roof (I suspect that is just laziness on the part of the illustrator) and sometimes the roof has a smooth arch to it kind of like Manley Field House (only on a building with 8 sides). I don't see any evidence of ETFE planned for the roof or parts of the endzone walls.

However, a new roof is still being planned along with accessibility improvements for ADA.

Overall, not much in the way of news here. I guess the biggest news is that the renovation to the Dome remains part of the overall plan.

That tells me we're probably not going to get the "wow" impact many were hoping for.

 

[llandz]

I don't see a lot of specifics as far as design concepts for any of the building projects. I don't think this document does much more than put the project on the table, and deal with the minimum aspects which is to replace the roof, and to make it ada compliant. . I think the actual details will be more forth coming at some future point.

 

[sutomcat]

Here are a bunch of images I took from the presentation that feature the Dome.

Some do include a building adjacent to the Dome on the west. One has it colored grey, which a legend says means either a parking lot or a parking garage. So I think there is at least some thought that it would be a good idea to build a parking garage next to the Dome. This would help people with mobility issues and help address the projected loss of most of the big surface parking lots west of the Dome.

I can only include 4 in a post, so there will be a second one.

 

[sutomcat]

Looks like the new outline for the Dome will be more of an oval than an octagon.

I think it is safe to say the design remains very fluid.

Looks like a couple of the buildings planned to be built on the surface lots west of the Dome many of us tailgate and park at now are planned to be residential buildings to be built in a partnership with a private developer. This might be one of the reasons SU has not been very receptive regarding the residential buildings for students proposed for north of Marshall Street...

 

[Newhouser]

The University is great at releasing plans - horrible at implementing them. Wake me when ground is broken.

 

[chakka3421]

They should move it just off campus down the hill in the near east side and have Coumo and the city pay for it and maintain it. Similar to what was proposed before Miner killed it. Resolves the issue of tailgating and drinking on campus that the current administration frowns upon. Have a trolley car to and from campus for students only.

Not sure why we are keeping something that doesn't work anymore.

 

[shandeezy7]

They should move it just off campus down the hill in the near east side and have Coumo and the city pay for it and maintain it. Similar to what was proposed before Miner killed it. Resolves the issue of tailgating and drinking on campus that the current administration frowns upon. Have a trolley car to and from campus for students only.

Not sure why we are keeping something that doesn't work anymore.

I can tell you this - the city will not be paying a dime for a new stadium. That wasn't in the original plans when the state was sniffing around and it won't be in any plans going forward.

 

[UnknownOrange]

They should move it just off campus down the hill in the near east side and have Coumo and the city pay for it and maintain it. Similar to what was proposed before Miner killed it. Resolves the issue of tailgating and drinking on campus that the current administration frowns upon. Have a trolley car to and from campus for students only.

Not sure why we are keeping something that doesn't work anymore.

Why should NYS/The City of Syracuse ever pay for it or maintain it? Lol. Makes 0 sense. This is a private university with over a BILLION dollar endowment. Figure it out on your own.

 

[sutomcat]

Why should NYS/The City of Syracuse ever pay for it or maintain it? Lol. Makes 0 sense. This is a private university with over a BILLION dollar endowment. Figure it out on your own.

Well, first of all, the stadium would not be on campus.
Further, tt would not be owned by SU. They would be a tenant for the football team, the basketball teams and the lacrosse teams. It would be owned presumably by the county, who would also kick in some money to build it.

If it were built in the blighted area the developers were originally targeting, it could be tied to economic development.
I think the plan was to use it to house the pro hockey and soccer franchises, and for it to serve as a premiere concert facility. It would replace the War Memorial, which is at the end of the road and needs replacement.

Cuomo and COR apparently did some stupid things and some people are probably going to go to jail but the idea itself wasn't a bad one.

 

[chakka3421]

Well, first of all, the stadium would not be on campus.
Further, tt would not be owned by SU. They would be a tenant for the football team, the basketball teams and the lacrosse teams. It would be owned presumably by the county, who would also kick in some money to build it.

If it were built in the blighted area the developers were originally targeting, it could be tied to economic development.
I think the plan was to use it to house the pro hockey and soccer franchises, and for it to serve as a premiere concert facility. It would replace the War Memorial, which is at the end of the road and needs replacement.

Cuomo and COR apparently did some stupid things and some people are probably going to go to jail but the idea itself wasn't a bad one.

But that's the whole point - move the facility off campus and SU shifts the liability off of itself. Not sure why they gave up on this idea but maybe SU has been waiting for Miner to be replaced before picking up on this angle again. Miner has been so detrimental to Syracuse in general it's been simply pathetic.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Well, first of all, the stadium would not be on campus.
Further, tt would not be owned by SU. They would be a tenant for the football team, the basketball teams and the lacrosse teams. It would be owned presumably by the county, who would also kick in some money to build it.

If it were built in the blighted area the developers were originally targeting, it could be tied to economic development.
I think the plan was to use it to house the pro hockey and soccer franchises, and for it to serve as a premiere concert facility. It would replace the War Memorial, which is at the end of the road and needs replacement.

Cuomo and COR apparently did some stupid things and some people are probably going to go to jail but the idea itself wasn't a bad one.

If it's a hockey/basketball/indoor soccer arena, it's not built for football/lacrosse.

 

[OttoMets]

If SU doesn't want to bear the burden of operating a facility, it would be wildly irresponsible for a local municipality to jump in and try to do so.

And I don't know why SU would have it any other way. The university takes in money hand over fist with its current building. Despite a court ruling in the early '80s that limited SU's non-institutional use of the property, they're still booking the occasional concert with no pushback from the city or state while paying no property taxes. Boeheim gets his court time whenever he wants with no interference from the Syracuse Crunch or Muppets on Ice. Babers is in the building whenever he wants to be. SU faculty and staff use the building for lunchtime walking loops ~150 days a year. They're selling law books out of there in August, graduating thousands of students in May, and holding basketball camps in the summer. All with relatively low operating costs and no outside conflicts.

If SU doesn't want to enhance the fan experience and encourage tailgating on its private property when it's raking in a million dollars in revenue every football Saturday, that's SU's problem - not Syracuse's or Onondaga County's or New York State's. If fans don't like it, complain to the school.

The idea of building a shared municipal facility is a bad one.

 

[Fly Rodder]

The idea of building a shared municipal facility is a bad one.

Disagree. The biggest issue with municipal/publicly funded sports arenas are that they A) sit vacant the vast majority of the time and B) pro teams leave. SU isn't leaving. Having a purpose built multi-function arena solves one problem as the SU football team doesn't need something that seats 100k. Basketball and football only have 27 home dates, it's not terribly difficult to coordinate around 27 days which are mostly September through March. Instead of trying to build one arena without impacting anything, which adds significant costs, they could take that extra money build two and probably save money: one in conjunction with the county and one for campus events. A smaller sports arena (maybe 8-10k seats or fewer) can replace the dome and it can serve as the home for lacrosse, women's basketball, soccer, track and field, walking loops, etc., and be attached to Archibold. Moving the much larger dome and associated parking lots frees up valuable real estate for academic and residential buildings (some of which can even be leased to ESF as they are growing and constrained by the cemetery).

But that would require some comprises and the city, county, state, and university to play nice.

 

[sutomcat]

If it's a hockey/basketball/indoor soccer arena, it's not built for football/lacrosse.

It could be. There are arenas that exist today with movable seating that can be programmed to host events with widely varied seating configurations and capacities. GoSU96 has linked to stadiums like this before.

That state of the art flexibility is the key that makes this kind of approach feasible.

People who don't think the War Memorial needs to be replaced shouldn't be allowed to have opinions on sports facilities.

 

[UnknownOrange]

Disagree. The biggest issue with municipal/publicly funded sports arenas are that they A) sit vacant the vast majority of the time and B) pro teams leave. SU isn't leaving. Having a purpose built multi-function arena solves one problem as the SU football team doesn't need something that seats 100k. Basketball and football only have 27 home dates, it's not terribly difficult to coordinate around 27 days which are mostly September through March. Instead of trying to build one arena without impacting anything, which adds significant costs, they could take that extra money build two and probably save money: one in conjunction with the county and one for campus events. A smaller sports arena (maybe 8-10k seats or fewer) can replace the dome and it can serve as the home for lacrosse, women's basketball, soccer, track and field, walking loops, etc., and be attached to Archibold. Moving the much larger dome and associated parking lots frees up valuable real estate for academic and residential buildings (some of which can even be leased to ESF as they are growing and constrained by the cemetery).

But that would require some comprises and the city, county, state, and university to play nice.

Or the private university can pay for their own stadium and be in total control. They wouldn't have to pay rent, share time, play nice, blah blah blah.

There seems to be a greater issue here is that the University doesn't want to help out their own athletics program. It's almost as if it's viewed as the educators versus the entertainers. If athletics does well, the university does well.

Syracuse University loses if they invite outside entities.

 

[UnknownOrange]

Here's a quick little antidote from my time on the hill - we once had to do a full changeover from basketball court set up to football field - and then back - in the same day. The reason why? The football staff wanted to show a recruit what the dome would look like on Saturday afternoons.

Things like that seem difficult if there are more than just Syracuse University tenants

 

[Fly Rodder]

Or the private university can pay for their own stadium and be in total control.

Well they can, but they're up against the three big impediments: space, time, and money. They're trying to get past the first two, which are 100% self-imposed, without throwing more money at the problem.

And as you posted, they're giving short thrift to their sports programs which represent a sizable portion of the university's identity and revenue.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

It could be. There are arenas that exist today with movable seating that can be programmed to host events with widely varied seating configurations and capacities. GoSU96 has linked to stadiums like this before.

NHL/NBA arenas have the ice rink as the base layer (because of the piping in the concrete that keeps the rink frozen). The basketball court is installed over the rink.

In the Dome, the field turf is the base layer, and can't be removed after it's installed. The basketball court is placed over the turf. The one time the Crunch played in the Dome it took almost a week to install a temp rink over the turf.

How can you engineer a facility for hockey/basketball and football at the same time? Do you put the turf over the rink? Do you install a temp rink over the turf?

How can you play hockey on Friday and be ready for football or lacrosse the next day?

I was always under the impression that the Water St project was a 15,000 seat replacement arena for the War Memorial for BB/Hockey/Concerts only.

 

[UnknownOrange]

Well they can, but they're up against the three big impediments: space, time, and money. They're trying to get past the first two, which are 100% self-imposed, without throwing more money at the problem.

And as you posted, they're giving short thrift to their sports programs which represent a sizable portion of the university's identity and revenue.

I just do not see why they cannot complete a 4-5 year renovation like MSG did. As long as Football & MBB aren't interrupted, you'll be fine.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Here's a quick little antidote from my time on the hill - we once had to do a full changeover from basketball court set up to football field - and then back - in the same day. The reason why? The football staff wanted to show a recruit what the dome would look like on Saturday afternoons.

That's insane. I only hope that that coach involved with that is no longer with the team.

I just do not see why they cannot complete a 4-5 year renovation like MSG did. As long as Football & MBB aren't interrupted, you'll be fine.

That renovation cost a billion dollars.

 

[UnknownOrange]

That's insane. I only hope that that coach involved with that is no longer with the team.

That renovation cost a billion dollars.

And? Ours is 1/4 of that. Maybe I missed your point but why couldn't a 255 million dollar rennovation be done over 4 years? We may need a little help from the ACC spacing out our schedule to maximize our time but it can certainly be done

 

[Fly Rodder]

Ours is 1/4 of that. Maybe I missed your point but why couldn't a 255 million dollar rennovation be done over 4 years?

I'm not sure what the renovation is going to be since they're awfully tightlipped about what the plan will be. So I can't comment on that. But regardless of what they do, they're spending extra to not impact sports and not build elsewhere. That extra costs is ultimately paid for from somewhere in the budget: either fewer renovations, amenities, etc. Basically, it's putting lipstick on a pig and paying a premium to do so when they're obviously having issues raising the money. What they'll end up with is likely a project that costs more, takes longer, and doesn't really improve the experience.

 

[HtownOrange]

NHL/NBA arenas have the ice rink as the base layer (because of the piping in the concrete that keeps the rink frozen). The basketball court is installed over the rink.

In the Dome, the field turf is the base layer, and can't be removed after it's installed. The basketball court is placed over the turf. The one time the Crunch played in the Dome it took almost a week to install a temp rink over the turf.

How can you engineer a facility for hockey/basketball and football at the same time? Do you put the turf over the rink? Do you install a temp rink over the turf?

How can you play hockey on Friday and be ready for football or lacrosse the next day?

I was always under the impression that the Water St project was a 15,000 seat replacement arena for the War Memorial for BB/Hockey/Concerts only.

Not that I agree with the following proposed plan nor that I think it would fit anywhere being discussed, but the AZ Cardinals pull their grass turf outside during the week to grow in the sun and pull the field inside on game days. If the football turf was the base layer, the hoops court could be done as is now or could run on one system similar to the Cards' stadium, and the ice rink would have to run on a system like that, but separate from hoops.

This would be costly and take up lots of extra space (which they have in AZ). Seating would have to be mobile to accommodate different sized venues.

It can be done but probably not for less than double or triple the budget as we know it and for a lot more room than the university or the city want to dedicate for the project.

 

[OttoMets]

Here's a quick little antidote from my time on the hill - we once had to do a full changeover from basketball court set up to football field - and then back - in the same day. The reason why? The football staff wanted to show a recruit what the dome would look like on Saturday afternoons.

Things like that seem difficult if there are more than just Syracuse University tenants

Exactly. This kind of thing happens all the time.

I understand that the limited use (and lack of street activity) is the biggest problem with sports facilities, but that doesn't mean that the public should pick up SU's tab. And, from SU's perspective, the current facility gets way too much use (some of which is tied to its current physical location) to give serious consideration to relocating or sharing with others. The degree to which the two big sports coaches micromanage use of facilities would make shared facility totally unattractive to any serious potential tenant.