Future Campus Framework Discussion

[kirbivore]

Here's a quick little antidote from my time on the hill

 

[UnknownOrange]

Haha shoot. I didn't even notice

 

[sutomcat]

Exactly. This kind of thing happens all the time.

I understand that the limited use (and lack of street activity) is the biggest problem with sports facilities, but that doesn't mean that the public should pick up SU's tab. And, from SU's perspective, the current facility gets way too much use (some of which is tied to its current physical location) to give serious consideration to relocating or sharing with others. The degree to which the two big sports coaches micromanage use of facilities would make shared facility totally unattractive to any serious potential tenant.

My understanding is that the new state of art facilities can change from one config to another automatically. It is a completely different way of doing things and past experiences with setup at the Carrier Dome are really not applicable.

With the IPL, the major tenants have separate practice facilities, which makes this kind of a setup much more practical.

A new facility would cost an enormous amount of money. If it happened, it would require participation from the county, the state, SU/SU donors and private business.

It would require a spirit of cooperation among all the major power brokers in the area that I cannot imagine happening. For that reason, I can't see it happening. At least not in my lifetime.

 

[GoSU96]

My understanding is that the new state of art facilities can change from one config to another automatically. It is a completely different way of doing things and past experiences with setup at the Carrier Dome are really not applicable.

With the IPL, the major tenants have separate practice facilities, which makes this kind of a setup much more practical.

A new facility would cost an enormous amount of money. If it happened, it would require participation from the county, the state, SU/SU donors and private business.

It would require a spirit of cooperation among all the major power brokers in the area that I cannot imagine happening. For that reason, I can't see it happening. At least not in my lifetime.

42K multi-use facility probably in the $500M range, with a retractable roof for spring, summer, fall. Never a better time to get debt financing in place. State/County line up the debt side.

Do a PPP with a company like AEG for the equity side and a stadium like Friends in Stockholm Friends Arena - Wikipedia and have a 365 day facility for the whole community.

 

[OttoMets]

My understanding is that the new state of art facilities can change from one config to another automatically. It is a completely different way of doing things and past experiences with setup at the Carrier Dome are really not applicable.

With the IPL, the major tenants have separate practice facilities, which makes this kind of a setup much more practical.

A new facility would cost an enormous amount of money. If it happened, it would require participation from the county, the state, SU/SU donors and private business.

It would require a spirit of cooperation among all the major power brokers in the area that I cannot imagine happening. For that reason, I can't see it happening. At least not in my lifetime.

Given the insanity that is college athletics, I can't imagine the big two coaches going along with this. Your bolded claim makes perfect sense, but we're not operating in a system that makes any sense. It's customary for the SU football coach (not just Babers) to insist that the IPF, Dome, and an outdoor practice field are all booked at the same time for a single practice, just in case he wants to change venue.

With men's hoops and football, there's no efficiency. It's a culture of excess. No tenant with any bargaining power would sign on to share a building with those two sports, even if the institutions could cooperate to get something built. There's a reason college teams tend not to share facilities with outside groups. Big-time college sports is weird.

 

[Moontan]

Just a quick reminder of why SU needs to upgrade the Dome...

 

[sutomcat]

Given the insanity that is college athletics, I can't imagine the big two coaches going along with this. Your bolded claim makes perfect sense, but we're not operating in a system that makes any sense. It's customary for the SU football coach (not just Babers) to insist that the IPF, Dome, and an outdoor practice field are all booked at the same time for a single practice, just in case he wants to change venue.

With men's hoops and football, there's no efficiency. It's a culture of excess. No tenant with any bargaining power would sign on to share a building with those two sports, even if the institutions could cooperate to get something built. There's a reason college teams tend not to share facilities with outside groups. Big-time college sports is weird.

I hear what you are saying. And you are right...coaches at this level aren't the most flexible or cooperative types you will run into.

I am not saying there is a choice (there isn't) or that there ever will be (there probably won't).

But what if JB (it won't be him, it could be the coach after or the coach after that) was told he could have the aging dome, with the bad config for basketball and almost complete flexibility regarding when practices and games are played, or a brand new facility with state of the art amenities for fans and a much better seating config that makes for a much stronger home court advantage and happy fans (with so many seats moved markedly closer to the court).

And what if the SU football HC (hopefully a gracefully aging Dino Babers) was given a similar choice? An aging dome with no frills versus a brand new facility with state of the art bells and whistles (a great scoreboard, great replay boards, a retractable roof, etc.).

Do you think that looking at the big picture, the coaches might be more amenable than you imagine they would be to change?

Sports facilities are so expensive. SU and the county both have major needs here. If all the parties involved could pool resources and work together, the result would be far better than they would get working separately. That is the only reason I think there might be a small chance this could happen.

 

[UnknownOrange]

I hear what you are saying. And you are right...coaches at this level aren't the most flexible or cooperative types you will run into.

I am not saying there is a choice (there isn't) or that there ever will be (there probably won't).

But what if JB (it won't be him, it could be the coach after or the coach after that) was told he could have the aging dome, with the bad config for basketball and almost complete flexibility regarding when practices and games are played, or a brand new facility with state of the art amenities for fans and a much better seating config that makes for a much stronger home court advantage and happy fans (with so many seats moved markedly closer to the court).

And what if the SU football HC (hopefully a gracefully aging Dino Babers) was given a similar choice? An aging dome with no frills versus a brand new facility with state of the art bells and whistles (a great scoreboard, great replay boards, a retractable roof, etc.).

Do you think that looking at the big picture, the coaches might be more amenable than you imagine they would be to change?

Sports facilities are so expensive. SU and the county both have major needs here. If all the parties involved could pool resources and work together, the result would be far better than they would get working separately. That is the only reason I think there might be a small chance this could happen.

It's unfortunate that relocating or building elsewhere is off the table. I can't see the state giving money if it stays on campus grounds, right?

I agree with you, Tom. I hope someone thinks enormous picture here.

 

[sutomcat]

It's unfortunate that relocating or building elsewhere is off the table. I can't see the state giving money if it stays on campus grounds, right?

I agree with you, Tom. I hope someone thinks enormous picture here.

I think the ADA initiative will drive some funding from the federal government.

I think the university will argue that the state and county should support this because it will bring jobs to the community short term for construction, drive more more sales revenue from the people who visit the area to attend games, and from the additional events the arena will hold (at the least, AC and improved acoustics will make the arena much better for hosting concerts during the late spring, summer and early fall).

My guess is that the state will contribute some money. The county might too if they can get assurances the arena will be made available to more local athletic contests (it would for instance be great if they can figure out a way to hold track meets). SU is going to have to find as many ways to use the facility as possible to help justify the cost just for a simple renovation.

 

[Newhouser]

I hear what you are saying. And you are right...coaches at this level aren't the most flexible or cooperative types you will run into.

I am not saying there is a choice (there isn't) or that there ever will be (there probably won't).

But what if JB (it won't be him, it could be the coach after or the coach after that) was told he could have the aging dome, with the bad config for basketball and almost complete flexibility regarding when practices and games are played, or a brand new facility with state of the art amenities for fans and a much better seating config that makes for a much stronger home court advantage and happy fans (with so many seats moved markedly closer to the court).

And what if the SU football HC (hopefully a gracefully aging Dino Babers) was given a similar choice? An aging dome with no frills versus a brand new facility with state of the art bells and whistles (a great scoreboard, great replay boards, a retractable roof, etc.).

Do you think that looking at the big picture, the coaches might be more amenable than you imagine they would be to change?

Sports facilities are so expensive. SU and the county both have major needs here. If all the parties involved could pool resources and work together, the result would be far better than they would get working separately. That is the only reason I think there might be a small chance this could happen.

I'm not sure of the county need. What events would go in there? New 100,000 sq ft facility going in at the Fairgrounds. Concert venue that is going to get the first push for those kind of shows. Crunch don't need a bigger venue despite their claims, Convention Center is already struggling to fill their space. Not sure what need it alleviates.

 

[Orijinal]

I think the ADA initiative will drive some funding from the federal government.

I think the university will argue that the state and county should support this because it will bring jobs to the community short term for construction, drive more more sales revenue from the people who visit the area to attend games, and from the additional events the arena will hold (at the least, AC and improved acoustics will make the arena much better for hosting concerts during the late spring, summer and early fall).

My guess is that the state will contribute some money. The county might too if they can get assurances the arena will be made available to more local athletic contests (it would for instance be great if they can figure out a way to hold track meets). SU is going to have to find as many ways to use the facility as possible to help justify the cost just for a simple renovation.

I have a question: does any other arena between Buffalo and New York City have the ability to host and draw the crowds the Dome does?

 

[sutomcat]

I'm not sure of the county need. What events would go in there? New 100,000 sq ft facility going in at the Fairgrounds. Concert venue that is going to get the first push for those kind of shows. Crunch don't need a bigger venue despite their claims, Convention Center is already struggling to fill their space. Not sure what need it alleviates.

Not sure if you are talking about the horse barn or the amphitheatre. If you are talking about the new horse barn, it is my understanding it is to be used for horse shows.

The amphitheatre can only be used for a few months and the size (17.5k) is too big for many acts and too small for others.

I would have used the SRC Arena instead. It is really small and inadequate for almost anything with a crowd but it can host HS athletic events and has done this to some extent. Or the baseball stadium.

How can you say the Crunch don't need a bigger and more modern facility? Have you gone to the War Memorial? It is small, horribly designed and incredibly antiquated. You can't move around, the food options are terrible (no room), there are no private boxes, even the ice is awful. The Crunch can't even get a decent scoreboard installed there.

AHL teams closest to Syracuse and their arena capacities

Albany 14236
Binghamton 4679
Rochester 10664
St Johns 6287
Syracuse 6159
Toronto 7851/8140
Utica 3860
Bridgeport 8525
Hartford 14750
Hershey 10500
Lehigh Valley 8420/9046
Providence 11075
Springfield 6800
Wilkes-Barre 8300

Syracuse Crunch attendance history...

I am not a hockey fan but I know the Crunch consistently fill the War Memorial to 95%. They have led the league in sellout games in the past. No question they would have a much high attendance if they played in a AHL level facility. What other city in the country is stuck trying to make do with a facility built more than 65 years ago? It is at best barely adequate.

Here is some attendance data...more is available in the link provided.

2013-14 5574
2014-15 5986
2015-16 5410
2016-17 5502

Syracuse Crunch yearly attendance at hockeydb.com

Meanwhile, the War Memorial sits on prime real estate that could be used for much better purposes. It makes sense to build a replacement in a bad area of the city that needs help getting turned around.

 

[sutomcat]

I have a question: does any other arena between Buffalo and New York City have the ability to host and draw the crowds the Dome does?

Albany has the Times Union Center. It holds 15229 for basketball. Just got selected by the NCAA to host some games in a couple of years. Rochester has Blue Cross Arena, which holds 11385 for basketball.

I think those are the only two that hold over 10K that are between Buffalo and NYC and in NYS.

 

[RF2044]

Not sure if you are talking about the horse barn or the amphitheatre. If you are talking about the new horse barn, it is my understanding it is to be used for horse shows.

The amphitheatre can only be used for a few months and the size (17.5k) is too big for many acts and too small for others.

I would have used the SRC Arena instead. It is really small and inadequate for almost anything with a crowd but it can host HS athletic events and has done this to some extent. Or the baseball stadium.

How can you say the Crunch don't need a bigger and more modern facility? Have you gone to the War Memorial? It is small, horribly designed and incredibly antiquated. You can't move around, the food options are terrible (no room), there are no private boxes, even the ice is awful. The Crunch can't even get a decent scoreboard installed there.

AHL teams closest to Syracuse and their arena capacities

Albany 14236
Binghamton 4679
Rochester 10664
St Johns 6287
Syracuse 6159
Toronto 7851/8140
Utica 3860
Bridgeport 8525
Hartford 14750
Hershey 10500
Lehigh Valley 8420/9046
Providence 11075
Springfield 6800
Wilkes-Barre 8300

Syracuse Crunch attendance history...

I am not a hockey fan but I know the Crunch consistently fill the War Memorial to 95%. They have led the league in sellout games in the past. No question they would have a much high attendance if they played in a AHL level facility. What other city in the country is stuck trying to make do with a facility built more than 65 years ago? It is at best barely adequate.

Here is some attendance data...more is available in the link provided.

2013-14 5574
2014-15 5986
2015-16 5410
2016-17 5502

Syracuse Crunch yearly attendance at hockeydb.com

Meanwhile, the War Memorial sits on prime real estate that could be used for much better purposes. It makes sense to build a replacement in a bad area of the city that needs help getting turned around.

Would there be resistance to replacing the War Memorial [antiquated / obsolete though it is] from veteran's groups? Could the actual memorials inside be moved or not damaged by the building being replaced?

 

[sutomcat]

Would there be resistance to replacing the War Memorial [antiquated / obsolete though it is] from veteran's groups? Could the actual memorials inside be moved or not damaged by the building being replaced?

The only reason the War Memorial hasn't been razed is because the local vets have fought very hard to keep that building standing. The county has tried to replace it a number of times.

The local powers that be were never able to work a deal to knock the old building down and build a new one that also honors the veterans but in a beautiful and highly functional modern building everyone could be proud of.

It is a shame.

 

[Newhouser]

Not sure if you are talking about the horse barn or the amphitheatre. If you are talking about the new horse barn, it is my understanding it is to be used for horse shows.

The amphitheatre can only be used for a few months and the size (17.5k) is too big for many acts and too small for others.

I would have used the SRC Arena instead. It is really small and inadequate for almost anything with a crowd but it can host HS athletic events and has done this to some extent. Or the baseball stadium.

How can you say the Crunch don't need a bigger and more modern facility? Have you gone to the War Memorial? It is small, horribly designed and incredibly antiquated. You can't move around, the food options are terrible (no room), there are no private boxes, even the ice is awful. The Crunch can't even get a decent scoreboard installed there.

AHL teams closest to Syracuse and their arena capacities

Albany 14236
Binghamton 4679
Rochester 10664
St Johns 6287
Syracuse 6159
Toronto 7851/8140
Utica 3860
Bridgeport 8525
Hartford 14750
Hershey 10500
Lehigh Valley 8420/9046
Providence 11075
Springfield 6800
Wilkes-Barre 8300

Syracuse Crunch attendance history...

I am not a hockey fan but I know the Crunch consistently fill the War Memorial to 95%. They have led the league in sellout games in the past. No question they would have a much high attendance if they played in a AHL level facility. What other city in the country is stuck trying to make do with a facility built more than 65 years ago? It is at best barely adequate.

Here is some attendance data...more is available in the link provided.

2013-14 5574
2014-15 5986
2015-16 5410
2016-17 5502

Syracuse Crunch yearly attendance at hockeydb.com

Meanwhile, the War Memorial sits on prime real estate that could be used for much better purposes. It makes sense to build a replacement in a bad area of the city that needs help getting turned around.

WAM holds what 7,000 so its more like 80% assuming all those tickets are bought and not purchased. Albany's team is leaving because the arena is too big and the crowds look even smaller, and a number of the other cities have other tenants that use the ice. WAM is old, outdated, etc I agree, but one team that draws less than 6,000 per night doesn't push my needle. I went to probably a dozen Crunch games this year including Saturday's playoff game and not one was sold out.

 

[TexanMark]

Would there be resistance to replacing the War Memorial [antiquated / obsolete though it is] from veteran's groups? Could the actual memorials inside be moved or not damaged by the building being replaced?

I hope not...sadly most of the WWII and Korean War Vets are gone. The murals could be recast and incorporated into a new building but...

The problem is I believe the War Memorial is a National Historic Landmark and I'm not sure there is enough room at the current site. I would think they could rebuild new somewhere and "repurpose" the War Memorial.

Renovated War Memorial | The Oncenter | Nicholas J. Pirro Convention Center | War Memorial Arena | Civic Center Theaters | Syracuse, NY

 

[TexanMark]

WAM holds what 7,000 so its more like 80% assuming all those tickets are bought and not purchased. Albany's team is leaving because the arena is too big and the crowds look even smaller, and a number of the other cities have other tenants that use the ice. WAM is old, outdated, etc I agree, but one team that draws less than 6,000 per night doesn't push my needle. I went to probably a dozen Crunch games this year including Saturday's playoff game and not one was sold out.

7,000 is not for hockey...

This sez about 5800 for hcokey

http://www.oncenter.org/sites/default/files/downloads/oncenter_sell_sheet_wma.pdf

 

[xc84]

I hope not...sadly most of the WWII and Korean War Vets are gone. The murals could be recast and incorporated into a new building but...

The problem is I believe the War Memorial is a National Historic Landmark and I'm not sure there is enough room at the current site. I would think they could rebuild new somewhere and "repurpose" the War Memorial.

Renovated War Memorial | The Oncenter | Nicholas J. Pirro Convention Center | War Memorial Arena | Civic Center Theaters | Syracuse, NY

At the time of the decision, my father, a WWII vet said that it was stupid they didn't replace the arena with a new one.

 

[KellySyracuse]

my dad's name is etched on the WWII wall inside the venue, I would rather they moved the memorial walls outside where people can see them. Move them to one of the squares where people can actually reflect on the enormity of the sacrifice these vets gave for their country. Then level the arena a build a new one.

 

[sutomcat]

my dad's name is etched on the WWII wall inside the venue, I would rather they moved the memorial walls outside where people can see them. Move them to one of the squares where people can actually reflect on the enormity of the sacrifice these vets gave for their country. Then level the arena a build a new one.

Agree. The new War Memorial should include some large, formidable monument where the names of the veterans who served our country so bravely can be prominently displayed in the open, for all to see...

 

[NJCuse97]

42K multi-use facility probably in the $500M range, with a retractable roof for spring, summer, fall. Never a better time to get debt financing in place. State/County line up the debt side.

Do a PPP with a company like AEG for the equity side and a stadium like Friends in Stockholm Friends Arena - Wikipedia and have a 365 day facility for the whole community.

My experience with P3's is not I think would be in the best interest of SU or the sports that are played there. P3's put the developer in the driver's seat as the client. They steer everything to their advantage (meaning cheapest, easiest to maintain or replace, and best suited to using however they see fit). That means the facility will not be cutting edge, or create the best venue for watching SU football or basketball, rather it will be the best means to getting the most income and income streams for the development/management company. AEG is a fine company and good choice if going that way, but that way may not be best for what we want. The Prudential Center in Newark is a good example. It is an AEG facility and one of if not the busiest facilities in the country. A friend of mine and an SU grad who is now GM of the Milwaukee Bucks facility was instrumental in its design and he was in communication with Coyle when this conversation first got underway. That said, IMO "the Rock" is designed for maximum flexibility and not maximum experience or environment.

 

[sutomcat]

Six years later, question of Carrier Dome lingers at Syracuse University

 

[sutomcat]

WAM holds what 7,000 so its more like 80% assuming all those tickets are bought and not purchased. Albany's team is leaving because the arena is too big and the crowds look even smaller, and a number of the other cities have other tenants that use the ice. WAM is old, outdated, etc I agree, but one team that draws less than 6,000 per night doesn't push my needle. I went to probably a dozen Crunch games this year including Saturday's playoff game and not one was sold out.

They can't draw more than 6000 fans...that is one of the many problems with the War Memorial.
It is too small.
The concourses are unbelievably narrow.
The seats are uncomfortable and too close together.
The food options are horrible.
The scoreboard is an embarrassment.
Access for the infirm and handicapped is awful.
It looks and feels like a prison inside and even people who aren't claustrophobic are uncomfortable in there.
Basic amenities everyone takes for granted, like private boxes, meeting rooms, an in house restaurant, etc. just aren't there and there is no room to add them. The county is fortunate Howard Dolgon is an extremely patient man.

Syracuse Crunch owner hints at relocation if he can't get War Memorial upgrades

 

[MSOrange]

They can't draw more than 6000 fans...that is one of the many problems with the War Memorial.
It is too small.
The concourses are unbelievably narrow.
The seats are uncomfortable and too close together.
The food options are horrible.
The scoreboard is an embarrassment.
Access for the infirm and handicapped is awful.
It looks and feels like a prison inside and even people who aren't claustrophobic are uncomfortable in there.
Basic amenities everyone takes for granted, like private boxes, meeting rooms, an in house restaurant, etc. just aren't there and there is no room to add them. The county is fortunate Howard Dolgon is an extremely patient man.

Syracuse Crunch owner hints at relocation if he can't get War Memorial upgrades

Gosh I moved away 30 years ago and even then, the WAM was getting old and not very nice.