Get rid of the Tampa 2 immediately

[sdhall01]

I just don't have faith in a Tampa 2, period. Wanted to give it a slight chance because hey, maybe Ward had an idea that other defensive coaches the past decade haven't...

But no, it's just a dinosaur defense.

Well, I'm sorry. Not only is it what we have, but I think we would be doing worse with Shafer's defense right now. Also, cut them some slack. Outside of the first three minute—the first three minutes of a new defense with a new coordinator and sub par personnel against one of the best offenses in college football—we haven't been too terrible.

 

[RF2044]

I just don't have faith in a Tampa 2, period. Wanted to give it a slight chance because hey, maybe Ward had an idea that other defensive coaches the past decade haven't...

But no, it's just a dinosaur defense.

Zero issue with you raising the question in the OP.

But going into the season, we knew that we had major issues at DE, and size / depth issues that were frightening in the secondary. Guys who were expected to be contributors like Wayne Morgan haven't even played [he might have tonight--not sure], and we've had a couple of injuries in an already depleted secondary.

I don't know if it makes sense to be up in arms about the D when many of the issues appear to be personnel based. And again, not discounting your question.

 

[Czar]

Zero issue with you raising the question in the OP.

But going into the season, we knew that we had major issues at DE, and size / depth issues that were frightening in the secondary. Guys who were expected to be contributors like Wayne Morgan haven't even played [he might have tonight--not sure], and we've had a couple of injuries in an already depleted secondary.

I don't know if it makes sense to be up in arms about the D when many of the issues appear to be personnel based. And again, not discounting your question.

My issue is the personnel needed to run it is really, really, really rare to find. Like, half of NFL level players aren't even good enough for it.

 

[CanadianSU]

Well, I'm sorry. Not only is it what we have, but I think we would be doing worse with Shafer's defense right now. Also, cut them some slack. Outside of the first three minute—the first three minutes of a new defense with a new coordinator and sub par personnel against one of the best offenses in college football—we haven't been too terrible.

A lot of drops from Louisville as well.

 

[RF2044]

My issue is the personnel needed to run it is really, really, really rare to find. Like, half of NFL level players aren't even good enough for it.

I think everybody expected that we were going to need to outscore teams, and that given the personnel everybody knew that this wasn't going to be a virtuoso year on defense.

I don't disagree that the personnel on hand aren't a great fit for Tampa 2. But we're stuck with the players we have. Babers and staff seem to be recruiting well. If the defense doesn't improve in a year or 2 with increased size / depth in the secodnary and at LB, then I think you'll be onto something.

All that said, nothing can erase what a horrific defensive performance this is.

 

[sdhall01]

A lot of drops from Louisville as well.

Yeah, and LSU had a slew of plays called back. Dropped balls are what happen when the other team throws a lot.

 

[Czar]

Being a Cowboys fan, I have seen way too much of the Tampa two, unless you have the personnel like Tampa, or the Bears had, its not the best defense to run.

Hell, if we want to run a more coverage oriented defense, try the 3-4. We actually have decent personnel for that.

 

[Czar]

I think everybody expected that we were going to need to outscore teams, and that given the personnel everybody knew that this wasn't going to be a virtuoso year on defense.

I don't disagree that the personnel on hand aren't a great fit for Tampa 2. But we're stuck with the players we have. Babers and staff seem to be recruiting well. If the defense doesn't improve in a year or 2 with increased size / depth in the secodnary and at LB, then I think you'll be onto something.

All that said, nothing can erase what a horrific defensive performance this is.

I feel like we're just talking past each other. If we don't recruit like Alabama, we're not going to get the linebackers you need to run this defense, period. We don't have the personnel to run it now, yeah, my point is we likely never will. At least not at a level that makes the defense without serious flaws.

 

[RF2044]

I feel like we're just talking past each other. If we don't recruit like Alabama, we're not going to get the linebackers you need to run this defense, period. We don't have the personnel to run it now, yeah, my point is we likely never will. At least not at a level that makes the defense without serious flaws.

Babers system is to score lots of points. And then to have a defense that forces the opposition to play slow. It didn't work tonight, because Louisville has dynamic playmakers, but it might look different against less explosive teams.

I don't think that the goal is to have an alabama defense [to your example]. We're going to win high scoring games, not win 56 - 14 games where we shut the opposition down. I think in large part, that is a concession to the type of players we're going to be able to recruit here.

But yes, a talent infusion is needed at most defensive positional units. Even the LBs look small.

 

[Czar]

Babers system is to score lots of points. And then to have a defense that forces the opposition to play slow. It didn't work tonight, because Louisville has dynamic playmakers, but it might look different against less explosive teams.

I don't think that the goal is to have an alabama defense [to your example]. We're going to win high scoring games, not win 56 - 14 games.

But yes, a talent infusion is needed at most defensive positional units. Even the LBs look small.

I'm not saying we need a Bama defense, I'm saying you need Bama level players to look competent running the Tampa 2.

 

[RF2044]

Ugh... can I change my opinion?

J/K -- agree to disagree on this. Losing argument to "argue" after such a poor defensive effort. The coaches have a plan, and I'm going to trust the plan. No doubt, our personnel is not optimized AT ALL for this scheme.

 

[CanadianSU]

We might get 70ed and people are defending the system ?

 

[dasher]

Well, I'm sorry. Not only is it what we have, but I think we would be doing worse with Shafer's defense right now. Also, cut them some slack. Outside of the first three minute—the first three minutes of a new defense with a new coordinator and sub par personnel against one of the best offenses in college football—we haven't been too terrible.

yes we have. Terrible. The dropped passes that would have given them first downs a lot more than we stopped them. Tampa 2 is a loser defense.

 

[sdhall01]

We might get 70ed and people are defending the system ?

What defense do you think we could run that would have made a difference in this game, on week two, with this personnel?

 

[PhatOrange]

Everyone who reads what I write should know that I'm very anti Tampa 2. However imo, tonight's issues had more to do with IQ than anything else. You had safeties crashing way to hard early on and we had defensive ends crashing hard and not containing almost every play.

You would think even a rookie DEnd would know not to worry about the RB up the gut and be far more worried about the QB keeping and going around the end. I find it hard to believe The staff was coaching DEnds to not play contain.

I also saw the same ole with poor angles and bad tackling. To me again this is IQ. Either you know how to take an angle or you dont, it's not taught.

Anyhow I saw enough to think the defense had more to do with IQ and maturity than it did with scheme or being bigger and faster.

 

[RF2044]

We might get 70ed and people are defending the system ?

To be clear, I'm not "defending the system." I'm just disagreeing with the notion that we need to recruit Alabama talent to run it more effectively that this debacle tonight.

I completely concede that tonight has been a disastrous defensive performance.

 

[Czar]

What defense do you think we could run that would have made a difference in this game, on week two, with this personnel?

Nothing else would have made a difference, but just running a regular 4-3 or 3-4 likely isn't as embarrassing since it doesn't ask the world of certain position groups.

 

[CanadianSU]

What defense do you think we could run that would have made a difference in this game, on week two, with this personnel?

Pressure the qb.

Literally he had all night to pass.

 

[RF2044]

Pressure the qb.

Literally he had all night to pass.

You're right, but tough when our DEs generate no pass rush. Our rotation there is inexperienced, young, and lacks talent. Could really use a Ron Thompson type just to get upfield and make some things happen in the backfield [and I know he faded down the stretch last year--just using him as an example] just to stabalize the position while the young players gain experience.

Also need better size in the secondary AND at LB. We're tiny at both positional units.

 

[sdhall01]

Pressure the qb.

Literally he had all night to pass.

Ok, pressure Lamar Jackson and he'll just run on you. We saw that happen tonight.

 

[qdawgg]

Pressure the qb.

Literally he had all night to pass.

Can't pressure Jackson too much because we don't have the LB's able to tackle him if he runs. It's a double edged sword. They got burned most of the time they blitzed and burned most of the time the DL forced Jackson to move.

 

[Stern]

This is gonna look so reactionary, but I don't care. When we got Babers offense, I was so happy, and I'm still incredibly sure it's going to work out given more time.

But I never really believed in Brian Ward trying to bring the Tampa 2 here. It's a bad, outdated defense. It's impossible to run in the NFL at this point unless your MLB is a freak who runs a 4.45 and is built like the hulk, it's even harder in college let alone here at Syracuse where good luck EVER finding that. Flat footed safeties, linebackers who aren't fast enough to do what they need to do in this defense, no. I wanted to give the defense a chance with Ward, and after just 5 minutes of this crap, no.

Get rid of the Tampa 2.

The Tampa 2 isn't the problem!! The players are. We don't have good enough players on defenses. You could run any defensive system you want with this group of players and it wouldn't be successful. What defensive system do you think we can run that will make the secondary cover better? Make the linebackers run faster? Make the DE's get pressure? There isn't a defensive system out there that can make this group look good.

And honestly, I'm not knocking the current players, they are doing their best. They are in over their heads though. They just aren't good enough to compete with Top 10 teams or very good teams like L'ville, FSU, Clemson, ND...etc. They just aren't.

 

[RF2044]

The Tampa 2 isn't the problem!! The players are. We don't have good enough players on defenses. You could run any defensive system you want with this group of players and it wouldn't be successful. What defensive system do you think we can run that will make the secondary cover better? Make the linebackers run faster? Make the DE's get pressure? There isn't a defensive system out there that can make this group look good.

And honestly, I'm not knocking the current players, they are doing their best. They are in over their heads though. They just aren't good enough to compete with Top 10 teams or very good teams like L'ville, FSU, Clemson, ND...etc. They just aren't.

Given all that, which I agree with, I guess it is better for the coaching staff to establish the footprint now by installing the defensive system, and then recruit for it to close the talent / personnel gaps.

We were going to suck this year defensively anyway.

 

[TheCusian]

Little early for snap judgements. They are dynamic on O and will make lots of teams look silly.

Also keep in mind we go so fast the other team gets extra possessions. If we stop scoring (2nd half) - it can get out of hand. Not a good barometer.

Let's see how we play the next two teams. That will show a lot.

 

[sufandu]

I don't think we'll ever consistently get the D lineman necessary to make this a really good defense. Having said that, I think it'll be an average defense as we get the players that fit better, and I think that's the plan. Blow the doors off on offense and slow them down enough on defense. I don't love that approach, but if it leads to wins, and I think it will, I'll take it. If we get to the point where we're winning a lot but a defensive change is needed to get over the hump to contend for conference/national championships, I'm confident Babers is willing to make changes.

We're still exactly where we need to be with a good shot to get to 6-6, make our bowl, and keep building.