Get rid of the Tampa 2 immediately

[Cootface]

The Tampa 2 isn't the problem!! The players are. We don't have good enough players on defenses. You could run any defensive system you want with this group of players and it wouldn't be successful. What defensive system do you think we can run that will make the secondary cover better? Make the linebackers run faster? Make the DE's get pressure? There isn't a defensive system out there that can make this group look good. And honestly, I'm not knocking the current players, they are doing their best. They are in over their heads though. They just aren't good enough to compete with Top 10 teams or very good teams like L'ville, FSU, Clemson, ND...etc. They just aren't.

Guess what? These are the players we have. If you need a few years to get "your players" to make it so you don't give up 800+ yards and 60+ points, which are (legitimate and psuedo) records at a university that has been playing football for 120+ years then maybe the issue is your system and not "the guys you were left behind."

Not that we were competing with them, but as someone who lives in Columbus and has to face Ohio state fans tomorrow, I'm so embarrassed right now.

 

[RF2044]

I don't think we'll ever consistently get the D lineman necessary to make this a really good defense. Having said that, I think it'll be an average defense as we get the players that fit better, and I think that's the plan. Blow the doors off on offense and slow them down enough on defense. I don't love that approach, but if it leads to wins, and I think it will, I'll take it. If we get to the point where we're winning a lot but a defensive change is needed to get over the hump to contend for conference/national championships, I'm confident Babers is willing to make changes.

We're still exactly where we need to be with a good shot to get to 6-6 make our bowl and keep building.

Here's what we have to hope: that next year, the DEs who are so woefully unprepared this year as frosh [Pickard, Black, Coleman, Newton, maybe Ruff] aren't such liabilities after they get some game experience and have a full year in the S&C program. And that over the next three years the talent / depth we have at DE turns into a strength instead of a huge liability.

And that guys like Carl Jones, and the two incoming recruits [Coley and the kid from MA] help to shore up size / athleticism / talent deficiencies in the secondary, giving that unit a shot in the arm and more size to compete.

We'll have all three DTs returning next year [hopefully Slayton shifts back to DT, where he belongs, because he's too slow as a DE for us], and that as juniors these guys will give us the type of play you'd expect from upperclassman, making us better against the run.

Also need to get bigger at LB to fit this system.

And it will be nice when we can redshirt some of our players on D instead of having to rush them out onto the field before they're ready due to roster shortcomings, like we're being forced to do at DE.

Another thing that would help the defense would be to have improved play from the OL, which would go a long way toward keeping the defense off of the field.

We're never going to be a shut down defense under Babers. But we need to improve, and the fastest path to improvement is via recruiting for the system.

 

[RF2044]

Guess what? These are the players we have. If you need a few years to get "your players" to make it so you don't give up 800+ yards and 60+ points, which are (legitimate and psuedo) records at a university that has been playing football for 120+ years then maybe the issue is your system and not "the guys you were left behind."

Not that we were competing with them, but as someone who lives in Columbus and has to face Ohio state fans tomorrow, I'm so embarrassed right now.

Man, I disagree. This is the classic dilemma--do you adapt the system for the players, or rip off the band aid and take your lumps implementing the system and getting the footprint in place long-term?

 

[Cootface]

Man, I disagree. This is the classic dilemma--do you adapt the system for the players, or rip off the band aid and take your lumps implementing the system and getting the footprint in place long-term?

844 yards. That should never get a "belief without evidence" pass. The 844 yards are eveidence!

 

[Woodchuck]

Why did Babers make our already small/light players lose all that weight this summer?

 

[RF2044]

844 yards. That should never get a "belief without evidence" pass. The 844 yards are eveidence!

Evidence of what? That our defense sucks?

Did anyone honestly expect otherwise? Were you actually expecting better results when our DEs had no players who'd taken a collegiate snap? Were you pinning your hopes on a 5th year transfer who didn't even get on the field for Colorado last season? Did you think that move to shift Slayton to DE when he is clearly a DT was a good sign, or a sign of desperation and how dire the situation was at DE?

Did you think we were going to magically shut teams down with a secondary whose best two safeties are both 5-8 [Cordy and Ellison]?

We were going to stink defensively this season no matter what system we ran. So, you might as well rip off the band aid and install the systems, and recruit to fit said system instead of trying to put lipstick on a pig.

We ran into a buzz saw tonight. The defense stinks. They need to improve, because otherwise it is going to be tough to win games.

 

[Cootface]

Evidence of what? That our defense sucks? Did anyone honestly expect otherwise? Were you actually expecting better results when our DEs had no players who'd taken a collegiate snap? Were you pinning your hopes on a 5th year transfer who didn't even get on the field for Colorado last season? Did you think that move to shift Slayton to DE when he is clearly a DT was a good sign, or a sign of desperation and how dire the situation was at DE? Did you think we were going to magically shut teams down with a secondary whose best two safeties are both 5-8 [Cordy and Ellison]? We were going to stink defensively this season no matter what system we ran. So, you might as well rip off the band aid and install the systems, and recruit to fit said system instead of trying to put lipstick on a pig.

Look I'm sorry. I always expected to lose this game. But I just cant be so laissez-faire about 844 yards. To me, that's the breaking point.

The NCAA record is 1021 yards allowed in a game. We were 177 off of that. Don't just brush that off.

I think Dino is the answer offensively, but he really needs to take a long hard look at that defensive philosophy and see of maybe there are some adjustments that can be made.

 

[RF2044]

Look I'm sorry. I always expected to lose this game. But I just cant be so laissez-faire about 844 yards. To me, that's the breaking point.

The NCAA record is 1021 yards allowed in a game. We were 177 off of that. Don't just brush that off.

I think Dino is the answer offensively, but he really needs to take a long hard look at that defensive philosophy and see of maybe there are some adjustments that can be made.

Laissez faire? Good grief--how many times do I have to qualify how horrific of a defensive performance it was?

What I am ACTUALLY critical of is the expectation that we were going to perform well defensively this year, and the hand wringing over not slowing down a top 10 team with the most explosive player in college football quarterbacking an explosive, experienced, well coached offense.

It isn't an excuse, it is the predictable outcome of having glaring personnel limitations defensively that have bit us in the a$$ when we faced a team with a legitimate heisman trophy caliber QB and WRs that were 5 inches taller than our secondary counterparts.

 

[Stern]

Given all that, which I agree with, I guess it is better for the coaching staff to establish the footprint now by installing the defensive system, and then recruit for it to close the talent / personnel gaps.

We were going to suck this year defensively anyway.

Totally Agree!

 

[Stern]

Guess what? These are the players we have. If you need a few years to get "your players" to make it so you don't give up 800+ yards and 60+ points, which are (legitimate and psuedo) records at a university that has been playing football for 120+ years then maybe the issue is your system and not "the guys you were left behind."

Not that we were competing with them, but as someone who lives in Columbus and has to face Ohio state fans tomorrow, I'm so embarrassed right now.

There is no "magic" defensive system that will make those players successful. It's better to get his year 1 players in this system now, accustomed to it, so as we graduate the players from the Shafer era (who mind you were bad last year in another defensive system)...we have the guys we want in the system we want moving forward.

If you put this defensive unit in a blitzing LB system, or the 46 defense, or a 3-4 defense...guess what L'ville still gets 800+ yards tonight and wins.

It's not the system.

 

[Cootface]

Laissez faire? Good grief--how many times do I have to qualify how horrific of a defensive performance it was? What I am ACTUALLY critical of is the expectation that we were going to perform well this year, and the hand wringing over not slowing down a top 10 team with the most explosive player in college football quarterbacking an explosive, experienced, well coached offense. It isn't an excuse, it is the predictable outcome of having glaring personnel limitations defensively that have bit us in the a$$.

I guess I just think there's a difference of opinion between not being good on defense and giving up more yards than any defense in the 146 year history of Syracuse university. My mistake.

That's tongue in cheek, but I don't want to dismiss how horrifically awful we were tonight defensively just because we thought they might not be good at the start of the year. No one expected us to be record breaking awful.

 

[RF2044]

I guess I just think there's a difference of opinion between not being good on defense and giving up more yards than any defense in the 146 year history of Syracuse university. My mistake.

That's tongue in cheek, but I don't want to dismiss how horrifically awful we were tonight defensively just because we thought they might not be good at the start of the year. No one expected us to be record breaking awful.

Lamar Jackson has scored something like 14 touchdowns in 7 quarters of play this year. Freaking incredible.

The defense flat out sucked tonight. We were woefully not up to the task playing against a team that is a legit top 10 team. Reactionary fans focus on symptoms instead of the actual problem.

And just to be clear, this was a historically bad defensive performance.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Man, I disagree. This is the classic dilemma--do you adapt the system for the players, or rip off the band aid and take your lumps implementing the system and getting the footprint in place long-term?

We've tried adapting to the players a bunch of times. It hasn't worked because the players haven't been all that good.

We're finally doing it the right way and forcing ourselves to become something that can be successful.

 

[iommi]

Nobody expected Lamar Jackson to score 14 touchdowns in 7 quarters of play this year, either.

The defense flat out sucked tonight. We were woefully not up to the task playing against a team that is a legit top 10 team. Reactionary fans focus on symptoms instead of the actual problem.

And just to be clear, this was a historically bad defensive performance.

I agree with your posts and takes throughout this thread but join me among the Tampa 2 sceptics. It seems like an odd scheme to employ for a coach who likes to roll the dice and play aggressively. It's the complete opposite of that.

We have an identity on offense finally. What will our identity be with the Tampa 2, even when we have the right personnel: bend but don't break? I'm not saying we have to throw everything at the opposing QB like the previous regime, but the T2 seems kind of lame/ tame for this team. I'm never been a fan of it in the NFL, and it seems odd to try it at this level. But I'm confident Dino put a great staff together, so we shall see.

 

[Cootface]

Nobody expected Lamar Jackson to score 14 touchdowns in 7 quarters of play this year, either. The defense flat out sucked tonight. We were woefully not up to the task playing against a team that is a legit top 10 team. Reactionary fans focus on symptoms instead of the actual problem. And just to be clear, this was a historically bad defensive performance.

Maybe I'm being reactionary. I'm not sure, because I was never a fan of the Tampa 2 philosophy so maybe I'm also not giving it a fair chance. I just don't want to try to explain away why it's okay to give up more yards than any team in our history. A history that includes multiple games against talented #1 teams (and Greg Robinson). Are there positives to take away? Yes. I just don't see any of those on the defensive side of the ball.

 

[TheCusian]

Look I'm sorry. I always expected to lose this game. But I just cant be so laissez-faire about 844 yards. To me, that's the breaking point. The NCAA record is 1021 yards allowed in a game. We were 177 off of that. Don't just brush that off. I think Dino is the answer offensively, but he really needs to take a long hard look at that defensive philosophy and see of maybe there are some adjustments that can be made.

When you go fast you give the other team more possessions. Our scores will be inflated somewhat from here on out. 844 is that inflation + a top 5 offense, and maybe the best O player against game 2 for a new offense.

 

[two3zone]

We're finally doing it the right way and forcing ourselves to become something that can be successful.

There are a lot of great posts on the board tonight after a tough game, but this may be the most rational, smartest post that I've read.

 

[TheCusian]

Lamar Jackson has scored something like 14 touchdowns in 7 quarters of play this year. Freaking incredible. The defense flat out sucked tonight. We were woefully not up to the task playing against a team that is a legit top 10 team. Reactionary fans focus on symptoms instead of the actual problem. And just to be clear, this was a historically bad defensive performance.

And I think he puts up good enough numbers next week that this board collectively goes "that makes sense"... Kid is that good.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

There are a lot of great posts on the board tonight after a tough game, but this may be the most rational, smartest post that I've read.

It's not a coincidence. I'm arguably the most rational, smartest poster on the board.

 

[RF2044]

Maybe I'm being reactionary. I'm not sure, because I was never a fan of the Tampa 2 philosophy so maybe I'm also not giving it a fair chance. I just don't want to try to explain away why it's okay to give up more yards than any team in our history. A history that includes multiple games against talented #1 teams (and Greg Robinson). Are there positives to take away? Yes. I just don't see any of those on the defensive side of the ball.

Who's explaining it away? If flat out sucked tonight.

But, the defense was going to stink this year no matter what. It wouldn't matter if we ran a 3-4, a 4-3, a box-in-one, or a pull the OL's pants down three stooges defense. So focusing on the defensive scheme, which admittedly is a strange defense to run at the collegiate level, misses the mark IMO. Especially when our personnel sucks on that side of the ball.

If we had quality players, and the execution sucked that would be one thing. But that's not what the issue is here. The results are poor because the talent is subpar. We have major gaps on the defensive side of the ball.

Good post, BTW.

 

[iommi]

And I think he puts up good enough numbers next week that this board collectively goes "that makes sense"... Kid is that good.

I predicted on Twitter he will win the Heisman. The kid will have 40+ Touchdowns.

 

[OrangeDW]

I guess I just think there's a difference of opinion between not being good on defense and giving up more yards than any defense in the 146 year history of Syracuse university. My mistake.

That's tongue in cheek, but I don't want to dismiss how horrifically awful we were tonight defensively just because we thought they might not be good at the start of the year. No one expected us to be record breaking awful.

I'm not downplaying how awful we were on defense at all here, because that was bad. But we can't ignore the factor that our fast offense plays in that. Those quick 3 and out and lots of possession changes were a factor in how many yards we gave up too.

 

[Briancuse]

I'm not downplaying how awful we were on defense at all here, because that was bad. But we can't ignore the factor that our fast offense plays in that. Those quick 3 and out and lots of possession changes were a factor in how many yards we gave up too.

Its a factor, but lets face it, we can't generate a pass rush, we have trouble covering receivers, and we miss a lot of tackles.

 

[SWC75]

We were in a defense?

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Have we played the Tampa 2 a single down this year?

I get that we don't have the horses on D but we didn't even make Louisville break a sweat. There were big time problems in the game plan and schematically today. They could have won with Mahoney at QB instead of Jackson. If we use anything similar vs USF, we won't be able to stop them. Sure they may only get half the yards Louisville did tonight but that will still be enough to beat us. That being said I don't see this D being an issue vs the rest of our peers. Those teams don't run Os that can take advantage of the crap we tried.