Get rid of the Tampa 2 immediately

[sufandu]

That is some very good company . I think Dungey would have similar stats if he were in Jackson's shoe's .

Athletically and arm strength wise Dungey is not on that level, but I think he is a better passer than Jackson is or White was.

 

[CuyahogaCuse]

Just for perspective -- BGSU had a bad defense in 2014 (lost most of its 2013 starters to graduation). Dino recruited defense more than offense in each of his two classes there. Not for his system, necessarily -- just better defensive players, more size. He also replaced his DC, bringing in Ward. And the 2015 defense was significantly better.

I looked up that famous Tennessee game last night. You know, the one played in 2015, with that significantly better Bowling Green defense. 30-59 final score. Not much different than 28-62, if you ask me.

That's the same defense that was torched for 77 points last week against the Buckeyes.

I wasn't expecting to win last night, but we've got so far to go just to compete. I guess it explains why Dino has come out already and said its midway through year 3 in his mind before we'll get there.

Perhaps the silver lining is that Dino expects to still be here in year 3. We can put to rest those worries about him leaving for at least a week.

 

[SmilinBob]

This was imo, is the best offense SU will face this year. Jacksons fakes, speed, arm and his o-line were fantastic. It is going to take time to get the size and speed needed to compete at this level. These kids on D were spinning and flat footed throughout the day or getting their butts blocked and cleared out of the way. I know the D will improve as the season progresses but the struggle to cover wr's worried me vs gate and it was rough to say the least vs Louisville. My question is...how did the LB's look in coverage because we know the db's got burned but did the lb's do their job or were in the right areas? I think it's a tough transition to go from blitz galore to this Tampa 2 D and until these kids start to figure things out it will be a struggle, especially against high potent run pass teams and add to that a qb that can fly...you're going to have growing pains and they are going to be exaggerated to the nth degree.

 

[PAcuse]

People need to listen to Dino in his press conference. We would have 3 people in place to contain Jackson and BAM 8 yard gain, I don't care what defense you are running Jackson is going to make you look silly. We don't have the big safeties we need to make the Tampa 2 run the way we need it. Folks we are going to have a lot more games like this before we get everything running correctly.

 

[AZOrange]

Tampa 2 is a base defense.

You're going to blow their minds ya know...

 

[djorange1989]

Flower's up next .

Yep he shredded us last year and our D appears to be even worse this year. Take the over next week.. And most weeks.

 

[AZOrange]

People need to listen to Dino in his press conference. We would have 3 people in place to contain Jackson and BAM 8 yard gain, I don't care what defense you are running Jackson is going to make you look silly. We don't have the big safeties we need to make the Tampa 2 run the way we need it. Folks we are going to have a lot more games like this before we get everything running correctly.

We had them third and 18 inside their fifteen, had pressure and our best def player queued up on Jackson and he whiffed and Jackson scrambled for a first down. Installing a different base defense doesn't fix the problem...

 

[sufan4eva13]

This thread is equal parts ridiculous and disheartening. We knew that more offensive possessions for us also means more offensive possessions for them, which means they can run more plays than normal and therefore get more yardage. At the end of the day a 36 point loss sucks but we also had over 400 yards on offense against a team that is probably gonna be top 10 this year. This game had bright spots.

Can we just be honest about the problem? The defensive talent is just awful. We don't have one defensive back who doesn't have an extensive history of getting torched badly, our starting D-Ends are a converted 300 pound DTackle and a true freshman and our outside linebackers are both sub 210. We have virtually zero depth on the defensive side and not one player who would start on an ACC defense that was above average. I think we might have 2-3 players who would make the 2 deep of the best teams in our division on D.

The philosophy behind implementing the Tampa 2 is sound; you limit the big play by making them work in front of the defense. Unfortunately we have what was probably the worst secondary in my entire time watching SU football last year and those are the guys we are still depending on. Like others I am happy we've actually decided to take our lumps and get a solid system installed rather than deciding to bend to the lack of talent of the players.

 

[SUbear]

This is gonna look so reactionary, but I don't care. When we got Babers offense, I was so happy, and I'm still incredibly sure it's going to work out given more time.

But I never really believed in Brian Ward trying to bring the Tampa 2 here. It's a bad, outdated defense. It's impossible to run in the NFL at this point unless your MLB is a freak who runs a 4.45 and is built like the hulk, it's even harder in college let alone here at Syracuse where good luck EVER finding that. Flat footed safeties, linebackers who aren't fast enough to do what they need to do in this defense, no. I wanted to give the defense a chance with Ward, and after just 5 minutes of this crap, no.

Get rid of the Tampa 2.

I do not know if it will ever work, but I have never liked the Tampa 2. It is basically a reactionary defense where you are really relying on the other team to screw up, and are putting no or little pressure on the offensive team. I think it is a recipe for losing to any good team, and generally losing big to good teams.

 

[Orangefizz]

Even though our defensive performance was historically bad, we were still only 2tds down in the 2nd half. It may seem like a lot but w Dino's offensive it wasn't too bad. We also forced a few turnovers, which was positive. A better offensive performance in the 2nd half and it could have been a ballgame. Don't forget this is Year 1 Game 2 against a Heiman candidate. DEEP BREATH EVERYONE!!!

 

[AZOrange]

I do not no if it will ever work, but I have never liked the Tampa 2. It is basically a reactionary defense where you are really relying on the other team to screw up, and are putting no or little pressure on the offensive team. I think it is a recipe for losing to any good team, and generally losing big to good teams.

Some of the best defenses in NFL history were Tampa 2 base defenses (or prior iterations).

 

[supp]

Tampa 2 depends on a strong back 7 who can all cover and tackle, which theoretically should be easier to put together at the college level since the best talent up front has always gone to the football factories. The problem is that this roster is especially thin in the backfield and I don't think we have a linebacker who can play in space worth a damn.

I worry we have a reverse Shafer phenomenon going here where the offense is cutting edge and making the most of the roster while the defense is ill-suited to the players on hand with no sign of a plan to deal with that. At the same time, I'm not sure any defensive scheme could cover up the depth and talent issues across the board.

 

[SUbear]

Even though our defensive performance was historically bad, we were still only 2tds down in the 2nd half. It may seem like a lot but w Dino's offensive it wasn't too bad. We also forced a few turnovers, which was positive. A better offensive performance in the 2nd half and it could have been a ballgame. Don't forget this is Year 1 Game 2 against a Heiman candidate. DEEP BREATH EVERYONE!!!

I saw Louisville dropping passes that should have been caught many times, our defense was riddled, and it would/should have been worse if they had caught half their drops. I stand by my statement. Any good QB with adequate time, almost always available with an inadequate rush, and decent receivers will destroy this defense. Rushing only four linemen, unless they are all all stars, will not rush the QB in most instances.
Our linebackers were almost invisible on most plays, and had no impact.
There is no doubt that better players could make the defense better, but that would be true no matter what base defense was run.
I was most disappointed in the poor tackling though, that is correctable and should really never be tolerated. A team that can not tackle will be in for a very long year.
Tampa2 is just not my idea of a great base defense, I hope they get better and prove me wrong.

 

[AZOrange]

I saw Louisville dropping passes that should have been caught many times, our defense was riddled, and it would/should have been worse if they had caught half their drops. I stand by my statement. Any good QB with adequate time, almost always available with an inadequate rush, and decent receivers will destroy this defense. Rushing only four linemen, unless they are all all stars, will not rush the QB in most instances.
Our linebackers were almost invisible on most plays, and had no impact.
There is no doubt that better players could make the defense better, but that would be true no matter what base defense was run.
I was most disappointed in the poor tackling though, that is correctable and should really never be tolerated. A team that can not tackle will be in for a very long year.
Tampa2 is just not my idea of a great base defense, I hope they get better and prove me wrong.

The defense is premised a lot based on the reads the make for run/pass. They struggled so much with that last night because Jackson was so good with the ball. It's one reason why people were so out of position.

Just out of curiousity which base defense is a great base defense?

 

[SUbear]

Some of the best defenses in NFL history were Tampa 2 base defenses (or prior iterations).

I believe some of the worst were Tampa2 as well, so not sure what that proves. Generally comparing anything pro to college is an exercise in futility. I will point out that the West Coast offense worked in pro, but has been generally unsuccessful at the collegiate level. Pro players are with their teams longer, and they are at a higher talent level, which makes most comparisons difficult if not impossible.

 

[AZOrange]

I believe some of the worst were Tampa2 as well, so not sure what that proves. Generally comparing anything pro to college is an exercise in futility. I will point out that the West Coast offense worked in pro, but has been generally unsuccessful at the collegiate level. Pro players are with their teams longer, and they are at a higher talent level, which makes most comparisons difficult if not impossible.

Ok but again it's a base defense. Lots of time last night we were just getting beat straight up in others sets.

 

[RF2044]

Tampa 2 depends on a strong back 7 who can all cover and tackle, which theoretically should be easier to put together at the college level since the best talent up front has always gone to the football factories. The problem is that this roster is especially thin in the backfield and I don't think we have a linebacker who can play in space worth a damn.

I worry we have a reverse Shafer phenomenon going here where the offense is cutting edge and making the most of the roster while the defense is ill-suited to the players on hand with no sign of a plan to deal with that. At the same time, I'm not sure any defensive scheme could cover up the depth and talent issues across the board.

"No sign of a plan????"

That could not be farther from the truth.

 

[Ish88888]

Athletically and arm strength wise Dungey is not on that level, but I think he is a better passer than Jackson is or White was.

Easy, dungey has plenty of arm strength.

 

[SUbear]

The defense is premised a lot based on the reads the make for run/pass. They struggled so much with that last night because Jackson was so good with the ball. It's one reason why people were so out of position.

Just out of curiousity which base defense is a great base defense?

If you are asking what I prefer, then it is a more attacking, disrupting defense which entails occasionally blitzing from different positions.
I understand that Louisville had more talent, and their QB was a legitimate star. We probably lose that game no matter the base defense.

Just out of curiosity what did you think was great about our Tampa2?

 

[OburgOrange]

I keep wondering why we continue to schedule like we are a top 15 team? :crazy:

 

[AZOrange]

If you are asking what I prefer, then it is a more attacking, disrupting defense which entails occasionally blitzing from different positions.
I understand that Louisville had more talent, and their QB was a legitimate star. We probably lose that game no matter the base defense.

Just out of curiosity what did you think was great about our Tampa2?

I dont think the D was great at all. I just don't think it's the fault of a particular base defense. It's a defense designed to keep the offense in front of them and with our talent level probably the best we can do.

 

[Ish88888]

This was imo, is the best offense SU will face this year. Jacksons fakes, speed, arm and his o-line were fantastic. It is going to take time to get the size and speed needed to compete at this level. These kids on D were spinning and flat footed throughout the day or getting their butts blocked and cleared out of the way. I know the D will improve as the season progresses but the struggle to cover wr's worried me vs gate and it was rough to say the least vs Louisville. My question is...how did the LB's look in coverage because we know the db's got burned but did the lb's do their job or were in the right areas? I think it's a tough transition to go from blitz galore to this Tampa 2 D and until these kids start to figure things out it will be a struggle, especially against high potent run pass teams and add to that a qb that can fly...you're going to have growing pains and they are going to be exaggerated to the nth degree.

Years of recruiting undersized dbs and lbs is now coming back to burn us. Couldn't have had a worse personel Match than the T2. Square peg, round hole.

 

[SUbear]

I keep wondering why we continue to schedule like we are a top 15 team? :crazy:

Well as long as we are in the ACC we will have to have Lousville, Pitt, Clemson, FSU, and several others on our schedule, and I do not think UCONN, Colgate, and USF are exactly over scheduling. I suppose we could drop USF and play another lower caliber team.
Basic problem though is the ACC is pretty darn good top to bottom right now, and we need to get much better.

 

[CuseOnly]

Look I'm sorry. I always expected to lose this game. But I just cant be so laissez-faire about 844 yards. To me, that's the breaking point.

The NCAA record is 1021 yards allowed in a game. We were 177 off of that. Don't just brush that off.

I think Dino is the answer offensively, but he really needs to take a long hard look at that defensive philosophy and see of maybe there are some adjustments that can be made.

Lol...while I appreciate the enthusiasm, what is it in your personal power to do help you not be laissez-faire? complain? Well done.

In the immortal words of Aaron Rogers "R. E. L. A. X...relax".

We ran into a Heisman Trophy candidate, possible future winner and probably one of the best athletes/QB to play in the Dome, and yes that would include Michael Vick, McNabb, McPherson, etc.

This will happen to a lot of other teams by Louisville, keep an eye out for the Wake and BC games, he is going to light them up too.

IMO the only team Louisville will play with the team speed to stop or limit him is FSU, maybe Clemson. Everyone else is in for a ride if he is healthy.

 

[RF2044]

Years of recruiting undersized dbs and lbs is now coming back to burn us. Couldn't have had a worse personel Match than the T2. Square peg, round hole.

This year, short term. But once we recruit for the system, it shouldn't be an issue.

 

[sufandu]

Easy, dungey has plenty of arm strength.

Didn't say he doesn't, but Jackson has a cannon.

I don't why people on this board aren't allowed to be objective about Dungey. He's a really good QB, but he isn't as physically gifted as guys like Jackson, Watson, and Francios. And there's nothing wrong with that.