goldsberry on waiters and carter williams

[RF2044]

You can't teach shooting at this level. You could maybe make a tweak in mechanics here or there, but the influence would be no more than maybe a percent or two. The only time any coach would be able to significantly improve a player's shooting is if the player just started playing basketball and didn't have the muscle memory built up. This isn't the case with the guards we recruit, or any position other than Center, typically.

Idk who gave you the idea that a shooting coach would or could make a big difference.

I don't agree with that. Coaches have players adjust their shooting mechanics all the time. Now, "improvement" will only come if the player is willing to stick with the changes and not revert back to comfortable patterns. Scoop is a good example--remember his shooting form freshman year?

 

[Brooky03]

to which part?

He's a position coach for the guards. You know, having been a very successful guard in Jim Boeheim's system for 4 years and all.

But no, you're probably right that he's just here to coach shooting. That makes way more sense.

 

[Brooky03]

I just don't think he's that good of a shooter. He's streaky and streaky bad more often than not. His wide open looks towards the end of the season were not even close. I get that he was overused and tired but imo, he's done nothing for me to think he's a good shooter. I'll concede some of that is how JB's used him but maybe that's part of the problem..

His back injury had a lot to do with him slump last season, in my estimation. He was excellent for the first 2/3rds of the season (including the first half of conference play) and then slumped. I don't think that's streaky in the traditional sense. Cooney struggles when he's guarded by an athlete who can chase him all over the court. He's fine when some of the pressure is taken off or if he's not outmatched athletically. His form is fine, it's the way in which he gets his shots and the number of tough, contested ones that he puts up that's the problem.

 

[Brooky03]

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970203897404578076793880988504

So teams hired shooting coaches and improved shooting with completely different rosters over the decade+ of having them. Well that's straight up science right there.

 

[Millhouse]

So teams hired shooting coaches and improved shooting with completely different rosters over the decade+ of having them. Well that's straight up science right there.

i must've missed the science supporting your posts that shooting coaches don't do much. please repost, thanks

 

[Brooky03]

I don't agree with that. Coaches have players adjust their shooting mechanics all the time. Now, "improvement" will only come if the player is willing to stick with the changes and not revert back to comfortable patterns. Scoop is a good example--remember his shooting form freshman year?

I remember Scoop. He stopped bringing the ball over his head as far (still did it, but not as much) and improved his shooting. We had your average, run-of-the-mill coaches show him that, not some specialist shooting coach like Millhouse is suggesting. How much did this improve his shooting? idk, his Freshman sample size is small, as is his sophomore sample size. I'd venture a guess that it made him couple percentage points better on jumpers.

 

[l'orange]

Devo could shoot.

 

[Brooky03]

i must've missed the science supporting your posts that shooting coaches don't do much. please repost, thanks

The burden of proof is on you, sir. You're asking me to prove a negative without providing proof of the positive.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Is this a serious question?

Yes. I question what he brings to the staff. He's not the most charismatic and won't be reeling in any big recruits. He didn't get hired anywhere else so logically you wonder if JB did it as a favor. When hop takes over we need to go out and find an assistant that is proven material. We have enough alumni on the staff.

 

[Millhouse]

The burden of proof is on you, sir. You're asking me to prove a negative without providing proof of the positive.

you want scientific proof that basketball coaches can help players with important basketball skills. got it

 

[Brooky03]

Yes. I question what he brings to the staff. He's not the most charismatic and won't be reeling in any big recruits. He didn't get hired anywhere else so logically you wonder if JB did it as a favor. When hop takes over we need to go out and find an assistant that is proven material. We have enough alumni on the staff.

By your logic, we could never hire any ex-players unless they go to some small, crappy school to get coaching experience first. GMac was a 4 year player well versed in Jim's system and was often times a coach on the floor. Excuse me for thinking he isn't the worst guy in the world to hire as an assistant 4 or 5 spots down the pecking order. And what does charisma have to do with it? We're not exactly leaning on him to go land recruits for us. We have other capable assistants who do a darn good job recruiting for us.

 

[OrangeDW]

I've never read a Grantland article that didn't make me want to punch the author of it in the face.

 

[Brooky03]

you want scientific proof that basketball coaches can help players with important basketball skills. got it

Oh the ol' strawman pops up again. Nice.

 

[Knicks411]

I've never read a Grantland article that didn't make me want to punch the author of it in the face.

Really? Not a Zach Lowe fan? (i know he didnt write this article) i think he's the best there is

 

[SoBeCuse]

relative to his first two seasons, he is playing better defense. but it is far from good.

This. It's unbelievable to me how often he still loses track of a defender in the corner.

 

[longtimefan]

if mcnamara was just some random guy that boeheim hired, we'd be asking if he knows how to teach at all

I think a college (or pro) coach can only tweak a shooter's mechanics. The die has been pretty much cast before they show up on campus.

 

[Cheriehoop]

why are SU guards, even the great ones, so terrible at shooting

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/n...illiams-trey-burke-nerlens-noel-dion-waiters/

In 2011-2012 we had 7 players shoot over 33% from 3.

Five of those players made over 35 three pointers and none of them played less than 16 minutes a game. I didn't even count MCW who only took 18 three's but made 7 of them or 39%.

GMac was an assistant then too.

Here are their 3 point %'s.

Kris Joseph .345
Dion Waiters .363
Brandon Triche .350
Scoop Jardine .379
James Southerland .336

Our overall 3 point % for 2011-2012 for the entire team was .349.

It did drop overall in 2012-2013 to .334.

Southerland went up to .398
Brandon Triche (injured) dropped to .288
CJ Fair improved to .469 (from .250)
MCW dropped to .292

GMac was still coach and we made the final 4.

The NBA wanted both Dion and GMac. Since Dion was a pretty good 3 point shooter at SU, should the NBA coaches be faulted for his shot selection and drop in 3 point effectiveness? MCW never showed a great 3 point shot in college yet the NBA drafted him high -- so they (and we) now expect him to be a good long distance shooter while NBA coaches allow or encourage him to take them? I'm confused about the points being made - is it that NBA evaluators make poor decisions, they don't put players in situations or systems to succeed??? What does this have to do with GMac as a coach that came up in the thread? The NBA keeps rolling the dice on young players after a year or two, many times on "potential" - isn't it the NBA's job to help them develop?

 

[Millhouse]

In 2011-2012 we had 7 players shoot over 33% from 3. Five of those players made over 35 three pointers and none of them played less than 16 minutes a game. I didn't even count MCW who only took 18 three's but made 7 of them or 39%. GMac was an assistant then too. Here are their 3 point %'s. Kris Joseph .345 Dion Waiters .363 Brandon Triche .350 Scoop Jardine .379 James Southerland .336 Our overall 3 point % for 2011-2012 for the entire team was .349. It did drop overall in 2012-2013 to .334. Southerland went up to .398 Brandon Triche (injured) dropped to .288 CJ Fair improved to .469 (from .250) MCW dropped to .292 GMac was still coach and we made the final 4. The NBA wanted both Dion and GMac. Since Dion was a pretty good 3 point shooter at SU, should the NBA coaches be faulted for his shot selection and drop in 3 point effectiveness? MCW never showed a great 3 point shot in college yet the NBA drafted him high -- so they (and we) now expect him to be a good long distance shooter while NBA coaches allow or encourage him to take them? I'm confused about the points being made - is it that NBA evaluators make poor decisions, they don't put players in situations or systems to succeed??? What does this have to do with GMac as a coach that came up in the thread? The NBA keeps rolling the dice on young players after a year or two, many times on "potential" - isn't it the NBA's job to help them develop?

I said guards for a reason! And that year seems to be the anomaly recently.

Something I'll go through all the years at guard and compare to the ncaa avg of 34 or 35%

 

[rrlbees]

Yes. I question what he brings to the staff. He's not the most charismatic and won't be reeling in any big recruits. He didn't get hired anywhere else so logically you wonder if JB did it as a favor. When hop takes over we need to go out and find an assistant that is proven material. We have enough alumni on the staff.

GMac does not lack charisma. He is not the person some think he is. He's also the most vocal at practice many times and has the sharpest tongue.

 

[Jake]

GMac does not lack charisma. He is not the person some think he is. He's also the most vocal at practice many times and has the sharpest tongue.

Agreed. He's a better coach than people realize. He will make a better head coach than assistant. His weakness would be recruiting, but he has surprised "skeptics" with his work at SU.

 

[caw]

Unless he's just awful whenever I don't watch the Thunder, everytime i've seen him play he's a legit defender. I don't think the Thunder would put Waiters on Harden for most of the game if he was sooooo bad.

Lowe has mostly said that Waiters is a fantastic on ball defender but gets lost very easily on switches / help defense / anything complex on defense.

 

[Cheriehoop]

SU's average 3 point % by year
2005-2006 2006-2007 2007-2008 2008-2009 2009-2010 2010-2011 2011-2012 2012-2013 2013-2014 2014-2015
33.94% 36.45% 34.05% 34.44% 39.1% 35.35% 34.88% 33.48% 33.07% 30.1%

Country's D1 overall 3 point % by year
2005-2006 2006-2007 2007-2008 2008-2009 2009-2010 2010-2011 2011-2012 2012-2013 2013-2014 2014-2015
34.81% 34.81% 35.02% 34.18% 34.14% 34.34% 34.23% 33.89% 34.44% 34.33%

We exceeded the national average 5 years and we were below 5 years. Pretty statistically neutral over the past 10 years. The last 3 years we have trended below when we started getting higher ranked point guard recruits who ended up entering the draft.

SU's record
2005-2006 2006-2007 2007-2008 2008-2009 2009-2010 2010-2011 2011-2012 2012-2013 2013-2014 2014-2015
23-13 24-11 21-14 28-10 30-5 27-8 34-3 30-10 28-5 18-13

Not a real strong correlation when exceeding the national 3 point average with SU's final record except of course for this last year. Uggh I can't post good looking stats - sorry

This is the source of the stats used except for the records which came from cuse.com
http://statsheet.com/mcb/beyondthearc

 

[Millhouse]

SU's average 3 point % by year 2005-2006 2006-2007 2007-2008 2008-2009 2009-2010 2010-2011 2011-2012 2012-2013 2013-2014 2014-2015 33.94% 36.45% 34.05% 34.44% 39.1% 35.35% 34.88% 33.48% 33.07% 30.1% Country's D1 overall 3 point % by year 2005-2006 2006-2007 2007-2008 2008-2009 2009-2010 2010-2011 2011-2012 2012-2013 2013-2014 2014-2015 34.81% 34.81% 35.02% 34.18% 34.14% 34.34% 34.23% 33.89% 34.44% 34.33% We exceeded the national average 5 years and we were below 5 years. Pretty statistically neutral over the past 10 years. The last 3 years we have trended below when we started getting higher ranked point guard recruits who ended up entering the draft. SU's record 2005-2006 2006-2007 2007-2008 2008-2009 2009-2010 2010-2011 2011-2012 2012-2013 2013-2014 2014-2015 23-13 24-11 21-14 28-10 30-5 27-8 34-3 30-10 28-5 18-13 Not a real strong correlation when exceeding the national 3 point average with SU's final record except of course for this last year. Uggh I can't post good looking stats - sorry This is the source of the stats used except for the records which came from cuse.com http://statsheet.com/mcb/beyondthearc

Our forwards can shoot. No complaints about them.

 

[Cusefannotindc]

SU's average 3 point % by year
2005-2006 2006-2007 2007-2008 2008-2009 2009-2010 2010-2011 2011-2012 2012-2013 2013-2014 2014-2015
33.94% 36.45% 34.05% 34.44% 39.1% 35.35% 34.88% 33.48% 33.07% 30.1%

Country's D1 overall 3 point % by year
2005-2006 2006-2007 2007-2008 2008-2009 2009-2010 2010-2011 2011-2012 2012-2013 2013-2014 2014-2015
34.81% 34.81% 35.02% 34.18% 34.14% 34.34% 34.23% 33.89% 34.44% 34.33%

We exceeded the national average 5 years and we were below 5 years. Pretty statistically neutral over the past 10 years. The last 3 years we have trended below when we started getting higher ranked point guard recruits who ended up entering the draft.

SU's record
2005-2006 2006-2007 2007-2008 2008-2009 2009-2010 2010-2011 2011-2012 2012-2013 2013-2014 2014-2015
23-13 24-11 21-14 28-10 30-5 27-8 34-3 30-10 28-5 18-13

Not a real strong correlation when exceeding the national 3 point average with SU's final record except of course for this last year. Uggh I can't post good looking stats - sorry

This is the source of the stats used except for the records which came from cuse.com
http://statsheet.com/mcb/beyondthearc

Dear Admins,

If there were a way to format tables, it would be very helpful.

Thank you for your concern.

 

[Cheriehoop]

Our forwards can shoot. No complaints about them.

All guards from 2005-200 through 2014-2015 - worst to best overall %
MCW - .389, .294 overall .306
Cooney - .309, .375, .267 overall .329
Flynn - .348, .317 overall .333
Triche - .400, .333, .350, .288 overall .333
Waiters - .329 , .363 overall .348
Ennis - .353 overall, .353
McNamara - .357, .389, .340, .334 overall .354
Scoop - .278 ,.389, .357 & .379 overall .364
Andy - .326, .356, .366 & .407 overall .374
Devo - .376, .353 , .407 & .390 overall .378

Sure looks like for the most part, staying in college improves one's 3 point shooting. It mustn't be that important to NBA teams for guards to be highly coveted though.

Below are SU's forwards overall 3point % who shot at least ninety 3 point attempts in any year in the past 10 years. The other forwards didn't take nor make many. Lowest to high again.

Joseph - .331
Greene - .345
Nichols -.358
Southerland - .370
Johnson - .415

Ironically as our recruiting nationally improved after 2010 ,we haven't had any productive forward 3 point shooters to spread the offense. (bet BJ will be one his last 2 years after he redshirts).