Green Bananas

[swish7]

For the last 16 years (and 4 coaches) of our overall overwhelming averageness, the most-oft-used wedge argument has been green bananas.

• Coach P 'deserved more time' (and hey, we cannot afford to fire him)
• Grobbycakes 'needed time with 'his players'' (and hey, we cannot afford to fire him)
• It started some with Marrone, but Grobby had dimmed the lights so much, and Marrone took us out of the dark ages so quickly, and left so promptly, these wedges barely had a chance to form.
• Now with Shaffer, it's again, 'wait til next year', too many injuries this year, etc. Which is valid, if every HC deserves more 'fairness' than practically anyone else in the country gets

'Need 4 years before you can even evaluate', 'wait til next year', 'needs an assistant', etc, etc. To me, its just green bananas. 'Just wait until they are ripe!'

A premise behind this line of thinking is that SU simply cannot fire coaches when it is proven they suck. And so, maybe as a form of self-preservation, we invent arguments as to why they don't suck ('just yet'). 'You just wait sonny!' <shaking fist>

Shaffer leaves a lot to doubt, but you cannot fault him for an inability to get his players to fight hard. The D, in particular, really gets after it.

These decisions are hard, and getting it wrong will set you back at least 6 years. 3 to figure out you got it wrong, and 3 more to figure out if you got the next one right. Doing it 4 times just sucks.

 

[CanadianSU]

He needs 1 more year for sure. We will see after next year. Needs a bowl game...

 

[Rocco]

He deserves another year and will likely get year 4 even if next year is another fail.

We don't have a Boone Pickens who will buy out his contract.

 

[orangepassion]

For the last 16 years (and 4 coaches) of our overall overwhelming averageness, the most-oft-used wedge argument has been green bananas.

Is green bananas the Football equivalent of shaky potatoes?

 

[Crusty]

For the last 16 years (and 4 coaches) of our overall overwhelming averageness, the most-oft-used wedge argument has been green bananas.

• Coach P 'deserved more time' (and hey, we cannot afford to fire him)
• Grobbycakes 'needed time with 'his players'' (and hey, we cannot afford to fire him)
• It started some with Marrone, but Grobby had dimmed the lights so much, and Marrone took us out of the dark ages so quickly, and left so promptly, these wedges barely had a chance to form.
• Now with Shaffer, it's again, 'wait til next year', too many injuries this year, etc. Which is valid, if every HC deserves more 'fairness' than practically anyone else in the country gets

'Need 4 years before you can even evaluate', 'wait til next year', 'needs an assistant', etc, etc. To me, its just green bananas. 'Just wait until they are ripe!'

A premise behind this line of thinking is that SU simply cannot fire coaches when it is proven they suck. And so, maybe as a form of self-preservation, we invent arguments as to why they don't suck ('just yet'). 'You just wait sonny!' <shaking fist>

Shaffer leaves a lot to doubt, but you cannot fault him for an inability to get his players to fight hard. The D, in particular, really gets after it.

These decisions are hard, and getting it wrong will set you back at least 6 years. 3 to figure out you got it wrong, and 3 more to figure out if you got the next one right. Doing it 4 times just sucks.

You have me confused. What is it you are advocating or are you just frustrated? These decisions are indeed hard to make. The number of highly successful coaches that struggled their first few seasons are almost as numerous as the coaches that simply failed.

This year's team is almost impossible to measure because of the unprecedented injuries to very key starters as well as backups. Most importantly, the poor QB play by Hunt and then by the kids that followed him makes it even harder to judge what might have been.

What we do know is that our HC saw a problem and moved to fix it. If that doesn't work I think he will be quick to move on from Lester as well if need be.

Forget green bananas and hope for some ripe oranges next year.

 

[007]

For the last 16 years (and 4 coaches) of our overall overwhelming averageness, the most-oft-used wedge argument has been green bananas.

• Coach P 'deserved more time' (and hey, we cannot afford to fire him)
• Grobbycakes 'needed time with 'his players'' (and hey, we cannot afford to fire him)
• It started some with Marrone, but Grobby had dimmed the lights so much, and Marrone took us out of the dark ages so quickly, and left so promptly, these wedges barely had a chance to form.
• Now with Shaffer, it's again, 'wait til next year', too many injuries this year, etc. Which is valid, if every HC deserves more 'fairness' than practically anyone else in the country gets

'Need 4 years before you can even evaluate', 'wait til next year', 'needs an assistant', etc, etc. To me, its just green bananas. 'Just wait until they are ripe!'

A premise behind this line of thinking is that SU simply cannot fire coaches when it is proven they suck. And so, maybe as a form of self-preservation, we invent arguments as to why they don't suck ('just yet'). 'You just wait sonny!' <shaking fist>

Shaffer leaves a lot to doubt, but you cannot fault him for an inability to get his players to fight hard. The D, in particular, really gets after it.

These decisions are hard, and getting it wrong will set you back at least 6 years. 3 to figure out you got it wrong, and 3 more to figure out if you got the next one right. Doing it 4 times just sucks.

Lots of good points, Swish.

There was always an inherent danger in tossing the keys to a HC with no prior HC experience. Put me in the camp as someone who did not think the program could "survive" that type of risk. I understand all the posters who will question if not SS, who were we going to attract? It's a valid concern. But we should have tried to minimize the risk by going with HC with a successful track record.

I am NOT anti Shafer, nor am I a believer. I am a Shafer agnostic at this time. Unfortunately, for better or worse, we need to see if the bananas ripen.

My hope is that we have a clear decision by the end of next season. Because if Green Bananas = we will not shell out the $$$ to buy out his contract, the hole will be even deeper.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

'Need 4 years before you can even evaluate', 'wait til next year', 'needs an assistant', etc, etc. To me, its just green bananas. 'Just wait until they are ripe!'

A premise behind this line of thinking is that SU simply cannot fire coaches when it is proven they suck. And so, maybe as a form of self-preservation, we invent arguments as to why they don't suck ('just yet'). 'You just wait sonny!' <shaking fist>

We sign coaches to 5 year contracts. You fire a coach, you still have to pay him. In the past, SU has NOT been able to afford more than a 1 year buyout. We're not Alabama or Michigan or Notre Dame where a few boosters can pass the hat and scrape up millions on a moments notice.

That's why Coach P wasn't let go until after 2004. That's why GRob wasn't let go until after 2008.

That's why Shafer is safe until after 2016.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Is green bananas the Football equivalent of shaky potatoes?

It is now.

 

[CousCuse]

Head Coach Green Banana. Reasonable assessment.

 

[KaiserUEO]

ACC $$$.

Playing surface has changed.

6 or 7 wins and a crapy bowl won't cut it.

8-4 & borderline ranked, or unlock the Dome and mercifully let him and his 1 line, cue-card talking points...out.

 

[CuseOnly]

For the last 16 years (and 4 coaches) of our overall overwhelming averageness, the most-oft-used wedge argument has been green bananas.

• Coach P 'deserved more time' (and hey, we cannot afford to fire him)
• Grobbycakes 'needed time with 'his players'' (and hey, we cannot afford to fire him)
• It started some with Marrone, but Grobby had dimmed the lights so much, and Marrone took us out of the dark ages so quickly, and left so promptly, these wedges barely had a chance to form.
• Now with Shaffer, it's again, 'wait til next year', too many injuries this year, etc. Which is valid, if every HC deserves more 'fairness' than practically anyone else in the country gets

'Need 4 years before you can even evaluate', 'wait til next year', 'needs an assistant', etc, etc. To me, its just green bananas. 'Just wait until they are ripe!'

A premise behind this line of thinking is that SU simply cannot fire coaches when it is proven they suck. And so, maybe as a form of self-preservation, we invent arguments as to why they don't suck ('just yet'). 'You just wait sonny!' <shaking fist>

Shaffer leaves a lot to doubt, but you cannot fault him for an inability to get his players to fight hard. The D, in particular, really gets after it.

These decisions are hard, and getting it wrong will set you back at least 6 years. 3 to figure out you got it wrong, and 3 more to figure out if you got the next one right. Doing it 4 times just sucks.

I don't recall anyone saying that coach "P" deserved more time. I recall people saying to get rid of him before it gets worse.

I remember people saying to get rid of Gerg after about year 2 as we all recognized he was awful, yet he got 2 more years. Mainly beciause he had a $2 million buyout in his contract or some such nonsense.

Marrone took the decision out of the AD's and fans hands.

With Shafer I see progress and people comparing him on this board to Gerg is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen. He does need time to get his recruits in here and I believe that we will see a good if not great team.

The other reason that coaches can't and shouldn't be fired after 2-3 years is that it makes it more difficult to hire the next coach when you set that kind of precedent. It's pretty simple really. Also, look at the more successful coaches at the schools that they were successful at, most of them had a bad 2-3 year stretch until they could implement their system and get their recruits in to execute it.

 

[Scooch]

ACC $$$.

Playing surface has changed.

6 or 7 wins and a crapy bowl won't cut it.

8-4 & borderline ranked, or unlock the Dome and mercifully let him and his 1 line, cue-card talking points...out.

I think that does cut it, unless our Chancellor and AD change course and think differently.

 

[Finwad32]

I think that does cut it, unless our Chancellor and AD change course and think differently.

Agreed, I think it's turned into a Pass or Fail scenario. Pass, currently, is 6 wins and a bowl. Until the thought process changes, it will remain status quo.

I don't know that we'll ever see the significant investment a lot of us dream for at Syracuse. Hopefully the influx of revenue from the ACC serves as motivation to the administration to do more with what they now have.

 

[xc84]

I don't recall anyone saying that coach "P" deserved more time. I recall people saying to get rid of him before it gets worse.

I remember people saying to get rid of Gerg after about year 2 as we all recognized he was awful, yet he got 2 more years. Mainly beciause he had a $2 million buyout in his contract or some such nonsense.

Marrone took the decision out of the AD's and fans hands.

With Shafer I see progress and people comparing him on this board to Gerg is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen. He does need time to get his recruits in here and I believe that we will see a good if not great team.

The other reason that coaches can't and shouldn't be fired after 2-3 years is that it makes it more difficult to hire the next coach when you set that kind of precedent. It's pretty simple really. Also, look at the more successful coaches at the schools that they were successful at, most of them had a bad 2-3 year stretch until they could implement their system and get their recruits in to execute it.

I think you are saying the whole premise of this thread is faulty. I agree. Firing P was semi-popular. Firing G-Rob was no-brainer and wildly popular. Firing Marrone? After only 3 years here, he was actually HIRED by an NFL team to be their head coach. Firing Shafer now after 2 years? You could probably find some who would say to do that. I wouldn't.

 

[CusefanATL]

For the last 16 years (and 4 coaches) of our overall overwhelming averageness, the most-oft-used wedge argument has been green bananas.

• Coach P 'deserved more time' (and hey, we cannot afford to fire him)
• Grobbycakes 'needed time with 'his players'' (and hey, we cannot afford to fire him)
• It started some with Marrone, but Grobby had dimmed the lights so much, and Marrone took us out of the dark ages so quickly, and left so promptly, these wedges barely had a chance to form.
• Now with Shaffer, it's again, 'wait til next year', too many injuries this year, etc. Which is valid, if every HC deserves more 'fairness' than practically anyone else in the country gets

'Need 4 years before you can even evaluate', 'wait til next year', 'needs an assistant', etc, etc. To me, its just green bananas. 'Just wait until they are ripe!'

A premise behind this line of thinking is that SU simply cannot fire coaches when it is proven they suck. And so, maybe as a form of self-preservation, we invent arguments as to why they don't suck ('just yet'). 'You just wait sonny!' <shaking fist>

Shaffer leaves a lot to doubt, but you cannot fault him for an inability to get his players to fight hard. The D, in particular, really gets after it.

These decisions are hard, and getting it wrong will set you back at least 6 years. 3 to figure out you got it wrong, and 3 more to figure out if you got the next one right. Doing it 4 times just sucks.

It is Scott Shafer. In fairness, everyone deserves to have their name spelled correctly.

 

[OttoMets]

Lots of good points, Swish.

There was always an inherent danger in tossing the keys to a HC with no prior HC experience. Put me in the camp as someone who did not think the program could "survive" that type of risk. I understand all the posters who will question if not SS, who were we going to attract? It's a valid concern. But we should have tried to minimize the risk by going with HC with a successful track record.

I am NOT anti Shafer, nor am I a believer. I am a Shafer agnostic at this time. Unfortunately, for better or worse, we need to see if the bananas ripen.

My hope is that we have a clear decision by the end of next season. Because if Green Bananas = we will not shell out the $$$ to buy out his contract, the hole will be even deeper.

Good post.

 

[xc84]

Would Turner or Skip have been good hires because they were apparently not "green bananas"?

 

[Cootface]

The other reason that coaches can't and shouldn't be fired after 2-3 years is that it makes it more difficult to hire the next coach when you set that kind of precedent. It's pretty simple really.

This is a popular argument, but there is absolutely zero evidence of this. Football coaches all believe that they are awesome and that they will be wildly successful. The only thing they see when another guy failed before them and got fired is that there is a job opening that they want. They don't even contemplate only getting three years instead of four. There are other reasons why someone may not want to come here but this isn't one of them.

 

[007]

ACC $$$.

Playing surface has changed.

6 or 7 wins and a crapy bowl won't cut it.

8-4 & borderline ranked, or unlock the Dome and mercifully let him and his 1 line, cue-card talking points...out.

In what time frame? There are 4 near certain loses baked in next season. This staff and this roster is not going 8-0 against the rest of that schedule.

6-2 against the rest next season and a bowl, any bowl = success next year. And go from there.

Anything less next season, take away the keys and bring back the pseudo wood podiums.

 

[swish7]

I think you are saying the whole premise of this thread is faulty. I agree. Firing P was semi-popular. Firing G-Rob was no-brainer and wildly popular. Firing Marrone? After only 3 years here, he was actually HIRED by an NFL team to be their head coach. Firing Shafer now after 2 years? You could probably find some who would say to do that. I wouldn't.

Your changing the premise of the thread to make it faulty.

It's not about firing guys like Donald Trump or Vince McMahon. It's not about whether it was a good decision or not to fire GRob after 4 years. It is more about being able to operate w/out so much faulty logic. Points like these are faulty:

• 'You cannot judge him b/c his players are injured. Sure you can.
• 'You cannot judge him b/c he doesn't have his players' Sure you can.
• 'His cupboard was bare, what did you expect in year (1, 2, 3, etc)
• 'You cannot replace him. It's only year (1, 2, 3, 4, etc.) This doesn't happen at SU.
• 'You cannot replace him. Just look at what he did 5 years ago. He's handcuffed by this and that, etc.
• 'You cannot judge Lester b/c he's using somebody else's system', etc.

Points like these were used as wedges and kept P and Gerg around. Gross shoulda been shopping around for Gerg's replacement in year 1.5.

I'm also not saying to fire Shafer. However, it should certainly be on the table, along with 'all options'. We need success, not extended job interviews for affordable coach x, y, and z.

2003 w/ Freeney, Kansas a few years back, Duke last year, and this. These are all good models. We can be successful again. Get enough good players. Coach up. Have at least one game-breaker on either side of the ball. Play mistake-free. I'm liking Shafer's D, but the offense is putrid. Firing McScrewit is not as much a sign of his 'decisiveness', as it is his initial poor decision making.

 

[boog7]

...I'm also not saying to fire Shafer. However, it should certainly be on the table, along with 'all options'. We need success, not extended job interviews for affordable coach x, y, and z...

...I'm liking Shafer's D, but the offense is putrid. Firing McScrewit is not as much a sign of his 'decisiveness', as it is his initial poor decision making.

Couldn't agree more. As a defensive coach, after being promoted, Shafer's most crucial hire was his OC.

And the fact that he ended up demoting (firing) his most critical hire just 18 games later firmly places that choice in the 'Fail' column. Blowing his most important hire, along with a growing litany of curious choices (fake punt there?), really brings Shafer's decision-making and ability to lead a P5 program into question -- and not unfairly.

 

[KaiserUEO]

In what time frame? There are 4 near certain loses baked in next season. This staff and this roster is not going 8-0 against the rest of that schedule.

6-2 against the rest next season and a bowl, any bowl = success next year. And go from there.

Anything less next season, take away the keys and bring back the pseudo wood podiums.

if he doesnt go 8-0, then FIRE HIM.

he was a continuation of the last staff, 2015 will be year 7 of that thought process.

a 4th crappy bowl (and lets face it, the Orange with no Giants Stadium game...will be offered their 3rd Pinstripe, probably v rutgers) surrounded by losing seasons, wont get it done.

and Scooch, we dont know how the new Chancellor truly thinks yet. yes, word is he pinches pennies, but a football team being out drawn by its hoop team is a embarrassment of unmitigated proportions, he could/should make a decision to help the bottom line of football.

 

[007]

if he doesnt go 8-0, then FIRE HIM.

he was a continuation of the last staff, 2015 will be year 7 of that thought process.

a 4th crappy bowl (and lets face it, the Orange with no Giants Stadium game...will be offered their 3rd Pinstripe, probably v rutgers) surrounded by losing seasons, wont get it done.

and Scooch, we dont know how the new Chancellor truly thinks yet. yes, word is he pinches pennies, but a football team being out drawn by its hoop team is a embarrassment of unmitigated proportions, he could/should make a decision to help the bottom line of football.

Really good point about SS and a continuation of the last staff. I had not thought about it that way because most of the staff was turned over, but maybe I should have. One of the loud reasons offered up for hiring SS in the first place was that he provided continuity.

As for the Chancellor, even if he is pinching pennies, why not invest in the program with the greatest potential to generate revenue?

 

[TheCusian]

Your changing the premise of the thread to make it faulty. It's not about firing guys like Donald Trump or Vince McMahon. It's not about whether it was a good decision or not to fire GRob after 4 years. It is more about being able to operate w/out so much faulty logic. Points like these are faulty: [*]'You cannot judge him b/c his players are injured. Sure you can. [*]'You cannot judge him b/c he doesn't have his players' Sure you can. [*]'His cupboard was bare, what did you expect in year (1, 2, 3, etc) [*]'You cannot replace him. It's only year (1, 2, 3, 4, etc.) This doesn't happen at SU. [*]'You cannot replace him. Just look at what he did 5 years ago. He's handcuffed by this and that, etc. [*]'You cannot judge Lester b/c he's using somebody else's system', etc. Points like these were used as wedges and kept P and Gerg around. Gross shoulda been shopping around for Gerg's replacement in year 1.5. I'm also not saying to fire Shafer. However, it should certainly be on the table, along with 'all options'. We need success, not extended job interviews for affordable coach x, y, and z. 2003 w/ Freeney, Kansas a few years back, Duke last year, and this. These are all good models. We can be successful again. Get enough good players. Coach up. Have at least one game-breaker on either side of the ball. Play mistake-free. I'm liking Shafer's D, but the offense is putrid. Firing McScrewit is not as much a sign of his 'decisiveness', as it is his initial poor decision making.

This was covered in another thread - just because those reasons were used for keeping Robinson around longer than they should have - does not make the results (firing) the same for Shafer. In other words those same reasons might give Shafer the room to right the ship. Or more simply: the excuses or reasons don't determine the outcome.

Hiring McDonald was him taking a chance on a great recruiter - if he takes off and becomes a great OC? Jackpot and exactly what people are hoping for. He was decisive when it was clear he wasn't becoming a great OC. There are rumors that McDonald was seizing up and not getting calls in quick enough. There's no way of knowing that ahead of time.

 

[Pyle]

Your changing the premise of the thread to make it faulty.

It's not about firing guys like Donald Trump or Vince McMahon. It's not about whether it was a good decision or not to fire GRob after 4 years. It is more about being able to operate w/out so much faulty logic. Points like these are faulty:

• 'You cannot judge him b/c his players are injured. Sure you can.
• 'You cannot judge him b/c he doesn't have his players' Sure you can.
• 'His cupboard was bare, what did you expect in year (1, 2, 3, etc)
• 'You cannot replace him. It's only year (1, 2, 3, 4, etc.) This doesn't happen at SU.
• 'You cannot replace him. Just look at what he did 5 years ago. He's handcuffed by this and that, etc.
• 'You cannot judge Lester b/c he's using somebody else's system', etc.

Points like these were used as wedges and kept P and Gerg around. Gross shoulda been shopping around for Gerg's replacement in year 1.5.

I'm also not saying to fire Shafer. However, it should certainly be on the table, along with 'all options'. We need success, not extended job interviews for affordable coach x, y, and z.

2003 w/ Freeney, Kansas a few years back, Duke last year, and this. These are all good models. We can be successful again. Get enough good players. Coach up. Have at least one game-breaker on either side of the ball. Play mistake-free. I'm liking Shafer's D, but the offense is putrid. Firing McScrewit is not as much a sign of his 'decisiveness', as it is his initial poor decision making.

Freeney was 2001, not 2003. Duke is a good model? Duke wouldn't be squat today by your guidelines. Cutcliffe didn't have a winning season until year 6. In season's 3 and 4 of his tenure they finished 3-9. We can't be Duke because guys like you can't wait for the bananas to ripen as you put it. A much better argument, if you'd like to make it...is that the team is regressing from DM to now, there are counter-points mind you, like the fact we had a 4th string QB in against a top 25 team. Regressed or just not ready? That is the question that the offseason will hopefully answer for us.