Green Bananas

[orange79]

It is Scott Shafer. In fairness, everyone deserves to have their name spelled correctly.

This is an excellent point, CuseFanALT.

 

[swish7]

Freeney was 2001, not 2003. Duke is a good model? Duke wouldn't be squat today by your guidelines. Cutcliffe didn't have a winning season until year 6. In season's 3 and 4 of his tenure they finished 3-9. We can't be Duke because guys like you can't wait for the bananas to ripen as you put it. A much better argument, if you'd like to make it...is that the team is regressing from DM to now, there are counter-points mind you, like the fact we had a 4th string QB in against a top 25 team. Regressed or just not ready? That is the question that the offseason will hopefully answer for us.

• 'the offseason'
• 'questions, unanswered'
• etc

More green bananas. It's Shaffer's job to ready the team.

I am not concerned if it was 2001, not 3, but do appreciate the correction. Just banging a post out while at work. To others, and for the same reasons, I don't care how his name is spelled. He cannot spell my name. Don't understand why we sidetrack over these silly little points.

Duke is a good model b/c they are a private school whom is finding a way to succeed in this modern era. Heck, they were 0-11 in McNabb's sophomore year, and 3 other 0 win seasons thereafter. It took forever, but their dark ages were darker than ours. They showed steady progress from 2008 onwards. We should model ourselves after private schools whom find ways to succeed in this modern era. Or, at least, we should learn from them. 1959 was a long time ago. Heck, Duke has only finished in the polls 4 times since '59.

I feel Kansas was a good model, moreso b/c of the way they played. Mistake free ball. Kinda like our '2001' team. Contrast that with SU being one of the more penalized teams in DI. Note that Cutliffe was a former OC and head coach. Good model. Admittedly, convenient.

 

[Moontan]

I'm shocked that I'm saying this, but... If 2015 is another 3- or 4- win season then SU should (must?) change its 4+ year minimum firing requirement. This was a "continuation hire", not a "rebuilding hire", hence the shorter leash.

 

[CanadianSU]

I'm shocked that I'm saying this, but... If 2015 is another 3- or 4- win season then SU should (must?) change its 4+ year minimum firing requirement. This was a "continuation hire", not a "rebuilding hire", hence the shorter leash.

If Shafer doesn't win 5 he is canned.

 

[rrlbees]

I'm shocked that I'm saying this, but... If 2015 is another 3- or 4- win season then SU should (must?) change its 4+ year minimum firing requirement. This was a "continuation hire", not a "rebuilding hire", hence the shorter leash.

I so much want Shafer to succeed but I completely agree with you. Tired of the words rebuild and coaches needing 4 years to have their own players. Blah blah blah.

 

[TheCusian]

I so much want Shafer to succeed but I completely agree with you. Tired of the words rebuild and coaches needing 4 years to have their own players. Blah blah blah.

Just because we are sick of it - doesn't make it any less true.

 

[KaiserUEO]

Just because we are sick of it - doesn't make it any less true.

i swear, youre on the payroll...

 

[CuseOnly]

I so much want Shafer to succeed but I completely agree with you. Tired of the words rebuild and coaches needing 4 years to have their own players. Blah blah blah.

Problem is if we get rid of Shafer, my guess is we will take a shot at another coordinator with no HC experience and it will be more of the same.

If that is the case, I like Shafer and I would vote more of the same with him as opposed to a "more of the same" that I don't like.

 

[rrlbees]

Just because we are sick of it - doesn't make it any less true.

We aren't recruiting D3 kids. Compete with what you have. Hell, even Grob got some players and beat ND and Lvillex2. Like someone else said this wasn't a rebuild, it was a continuation.

 

[Moontan]

Problem is if we get rid of Shafer, my guess is we will take a shot at another coordinator with no HC experience and it will be more of the same.

A coordinator is not an option as SU couldn't afford the risk.

If HCSS were to get the boot after 2015 or 2016 then his successor will have prior D1 head coaching experience. That coach will have been a prior P-5 coach that is currently serving as a coordinator or an active Other-5 head coach (MAC, AAC, Sunbelt, C-USA, C-USA). I'd also be open to someone like Chad Morris, but he can get a bigger 1st HC gig.

 

[xc84]

We aren't recruiting D3 kids. Compete with what you have. Hell, even Grob got some players and beat ND and Lvillex2. Like someone else said this wasn't a rebuild, it was a continuation.

It's a continuation of a rebuild. Yes, even GRob was able to grab 10 win in 4 years. Your list of 2 wins accounted for 20% of his total.

 

[Crusty]

What is we were to beat Pitt and BC and wind up 5-7 with all the injuries etc? How does that change opinions - or not?

 

[rrlbees]

It's a continuation of a rebuild. Yes, even GRob was able to grab 10 win in 4 years. Your list of 2 wins accounted for 20% of his total.

So you're saying it's been a 6 year rebuild? If so, I put that on Marrone and Shafer then. 6 years. Year 2 Marrone was 8-5.

 

[TheCusian]

We aren't recruiting D3 kids. Compete with what you have. Hell, even Grob got some players and beat ND and Lvillex2. Like someone else said this wasn't a rebuild, it was a continuation.

1. Step up in competition in the ACC.
2. Shafer's 1st full recruiting class is the best we've had in years.
3. Marrone was not the recruiter that Shafer appears to be.

These points nullify the "continuation" argument to an extent and demand at least another season to see if this was just a lost year.

None of that is an excuse for this season. But it does bode well for the future. I really want to see the Ish, Franklin, Long class grow into themselves next season.

 

[TheCusian]

i swear, youre on the payroll...

Nope. Just hate to see years of frustration with Syracuse football erase the same patience we gave to Marrone and Robinson.

 

[xc84]

So you're saying it's been a 6 year rebuild? If so, I put that on Marrone and Shafer then. 6 years. Year 2 Marrone was 8-5.

Yes, that's what I am saying. You need to factor in the loss of recruits and continuity when coaches are fired or leave. Don't cherry pick years. Marrone was 4-8 his first year and 5-7 his third year. His 8-5 last year was part of rebuilding and by no means a sign that he was close to consistent winning. He was rebuilding. Then he left. His best recruits de-committed. All this followed a coach who averaged 2.5 wins per year for 4 years. It took Mac 7 years to rebuild and he was able to do it without the disruption of coaching changes.

 

[CousCuse]

Yes, that's what I am saying. You need to factor in the loss of recruits and continuity when coaches are fired or leave. Don't cherry pick years. Marrone was 4-8 his first year and 5-7 his third year. His 8-5 last year was part of rebuilding by by no means a sign that he was close to consistent winning. He was rebuilding. Then he left. His best recruits de-committed. All this followed a coach who averaged 2.5 wins per year for 4 years. It took Mac 7 years to rebuild and he was able to do it without the disruption of coaching changes.

You also must factor in moving into a much tougher conference.

 

[rrlbees]

Yes, that's what I am saying. You need to factor in the loss of recruits and continuity when coaches are fired or leave. Don't cherry pick years. Marrone was 4-8 his first year and 5-7 his third year. His 8-5 last year was part of rebuilding and by no means a sign that he was close to consistent winning. He was rebuilding. Then he left. His best recruits de-committed. All this followed a coach who averaged 2.5 wins per year for 4 years. It took Mac 7 years to rebuild and he was able to do it without the disruption of coaching changes.

I don't buy any of it. Reality is, we've been average or worse for 13 years. Always an excuse. We're in a rebuild doo loop. Time to produce and stop with the excuses of new coCh, rebuild, new system, need our own guys, blah, blah, blah. If Shafer doesn't win next year, then he'll be gone and we'll be hearing the same things about the next new guy.

 

[xc84]

I don't buy any of it. Reality is, we've been average or worse for 13 years.

Exactly...hence the need to rebuild. Any program in our current position that gives new coaches only 2 years to rebuild a program is destined to have a revolving door of coaches.

 

[TheCusian]

I don't buy any of it. Reality is, we've been average or worse for 13 years. Always an excuse. We're in a rebuild doo loop. Time to produce and stop with the excuses of new coCh, rebuild, new system, need our own guys, blah, blah, blah. If Shafer doesn't win next year, then he'll be gone and we'll be hearing the same things about the next new guy.

You're making the case for patience not a revolving door.

 

[IthacaMatt]

For the last 16 years (and 4 coaches) of our overall overwhelming averageness, the most-oft-used wedge argument has been green bananas.

Shaffer leaves a lot to doubt, but you cannot fault him for an inability to get his players to fight hard. The D, in particular, really gets after it.
.

Don't forget, Swish, we saw lots of games where SU football teams just quit on the coaches and on themselves from the late P&D years, to GRob (of course) and even Marrone a few times. We haven't really seen that with Shaffer's teams. I think that on this basis alone he deserves a mulligan. Two fairly strong recruiting classes by our standards, a team that plays very hard. Just like Marrone took a step back in year 2, so has Shaffer. I think we are going to be predicted to come in last in our division next year, and in all likelihood, we will be better than people expect.

 

[SUFan44]

Don't forget, Swish, we saw lots of games where SU football teams just quit on the coaches and on themselves from the late P&D years, to GRob (of course) and even Marrone a few times. We haven't really seen that with Shaffer's teams. I think that on this basis alone he deserves a mulligan. Two fairly strong recruiting classes by our standards, a team that plays very hard. Just like Marrone took a step back in year 2, so has Shaffer. I think we are going to be predicted to come in last in our division next year, and in all likelihood, we will be better than people expect.

There is such a thing as playing hard and smart and winning. We haven't seen it a lot, but it does exist. And some teams actually do it consistently under the right coaching regime.

Not sure how playing hard totally wipes away all of the other red flags.

 

[SUbear]

He deserves another year and will likely get year 4 even if next year is another fail.

We don't have a Boone Pickens who will buy out his contract.

You are assuming he has a four year contract? I for one hope they did not give another unproven head coach a four year contract. What is it someone once said about repeatedly making the same mistakes?

 

[SUbear]

Don't forget, Swish, we saw lots of games where SU football teams just quit on the coaches and on themselves from the late P&D years, to GRob (of course) and even Marrone a few times. We haven't really seen that with Shaffer's teams. I think that on this basis alone he deserves a mulligan. Two fairly strong recruiting classes by our standards, a team that plays very hard. Just like Marrone took a step back in year 2, so has Shaffer. I think we are going to be predicted to come in last in our division next year, and in all likelihood, we will be better than people expect.

Better than last. Is that the new standard for our aspirations? if so count me out!

 

[swish7]

Don't forget, Swish, we saw lots of games where SU football teams just quit on the coaches and on themselves from the late P&D years, to GRob (of course) and even Marrone a few times. We haven't really seen that with Shaffer's teams. I think that on this basis alone he deserves a mulligan. Two fairly strong recruiting classes by our standards, a team that plays very hard. Just like Marrone took a step back in year 2, so has Shaffer. I think we are going to be predicted to come in last in our division next year, and in all likelihood, we will be better than people expect.

Clearly, he gets next year. Clearly. But, at this point in time, 2 more should not be a 'guarantee'. Not sure if he needs to produce a bowl to keep his job, or not. It couldn't hurt. But, he cannot continue to be inept in the areas currently lacking:

- offense
- specials
- clock management
- gameplanning
- penalties
- bizarre lectures on keeping college football in perspective with geopolitical situations
- podium kindness

These coaches always seem to create these impossible decision scenarios. The offense will probably take a step forward, and the defense a step back, and we'll again not know what to do.

The point of the thread, and it seems well received, is that the 4-5 year protocol we've dealt with for 13 years needs to stop. At the time of the OP, I didn't even consider that it was a 'continuation hire'. Needs to get his crap together, and quick. Enough talk.

The big mistake in all this was giving GRobbycakes so much rope, and likely just the hire in and of itself.