Greg Webb

[DeepThrowIt]

While I resect DeepThrowIt's comments and insight, the comments reflect the attitude of NJ HS Football in general. It is still very much an old boys network driven by insiders and ego. I coached had the opportunity to coach with a NJ HS coacing legend years ago and he had a lot of funny stories to tell about coaches, athletic training schools, etc.

I'm not so sure this staff has the desire (right or wrong), or resources to go full speed ahead in NJ right now. They are going to continue to hit the rust belt hard and continue to sprinkle in kids from the newly opened ACC states like GA, FL. There is also more focus on VA and MD now than earlier in Marrone's tenure.

CIL, you are right about the old boys network! It is crazy in NJ. I think the point to my original post may have gotten lost in the shuffle (and disagreements, JAVA you're my boy blue!) was the lack of resources being committed to NJ despite its location and the abundance of resources we are using in NYC/LI.

 

[cusestudent]

Very true, Mark. However, you will find these prima donnas everywhere, especially as you start moving south.

I also agree with how the staff is built. It just my opinion, but I wish it was set up to be more of a factor in NJ than NYC and LI. NYC and LI rarely produce the kind of talent NJ does.

Especially since we can't even close the deal on the top talent in the city when there is middling talent in NJ that is maybe only a baby step behind and their recruiting isn't that hot.

 

[javadoc]

CIL, you are right about the old boys network! It is crazy in NJ. I think the point to my original post may have gotten lost in the shuffle (and disagreements, JAVA you're my boy blue!) was the lack of resources being committed to NJ despite its location and the abundance of resources we are using in NYC/LI.

Hey man, no worries. The only thing that rubbed me wrong was the closing sentence from your original post. Seemed a little too "rain cloud"-ish to me, and I think our staff needs a lot of support right now, as I have said repeatedly it seems to me they are facing a bigger challenge than most seem to believe.

In your opinion, to be more successful in NJ, do we need to spend more time there with existing staff, or do we need to hire a new assistant?

 

[DeepThrowIt]

Hey man, no worries. The only thing that rubbed me wrong was the closing sentence from your original post. Seemed a little too "rain cloud"-ish to me, and I think our staff needs a lot of support right now, as I have said repeatedly it seems to me they are facing a bigger challenge than most seem to believe.

In your opinion, to be more successful in NJ, do we need to spend more time there with existing staff, or do we need to hire a new assistant?

They do face a big challenge, however I don't believe the people (there have been many here who have said this) who have said grob ruined NJ recruiting ties. He brought in a bunch of NJ kids that maybe weren't the best players in college, but we're outstanding in hs and somewhat overlooked. This played well with NJ coaches. However HCDM ran a bunch of these kids out. This strained some relationships, even if some of them probably didn't belong on the Hill. I do believe that the Syracuse name still carries weight in the state, but that is changing due to it not being a staff priority.

In a perfect world, hiring someone with NJ ties would have been smart. I have been tough on Rob Moore but he was thrown into a tough position. Throwing someone who has never recruited before into the shark tank that is NJ hs football was probably not the best idea. Someone like Anselmo or one of the other guys with NYC/LI ties would do better in NJ because these areas have very similar personalities when it comes to coaches.

 

[tipphill]

bottom line is not recruiting nj is absolutely insane---best football in north east except pa.---more talent,better hs coaches etc.we were a lock in nj when we were good-----this is all academic----we need to recruit better in nj

 

[rosconey]

like it or not we switched places with rutgirls-they are a destination for quality kids,while su isnt-

they can show a decade of bowl games and winning seasons-su cant

you guys want to survive off past glory- it aint happening

everyone thinks the acc move will issue in a new era- while in reality the national perception is still a joke and will remain that way till we start to win -

 

[Townie72]

Most of you are overstating the influence coaches have on the recruiting of top players. That's been over for 20+ years.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

like it or not we switched places with rutgirls-they are a destination for quality kids,while su isnt-

they can show a decade of bowl games and winning seasons-su cant

you guys want to survive off past glory- it aint happening

everyone thinks the acc move will issue in a new era- while in reality the national perception is still a joke and will remain that way till we start to win -

Thanks for the update. Good Lord

 

[rosconey]

Thanks for the update. Good Lord

your welcome-bad god

 

[DeepThrowIt]

Most of you are overstating the influence coaches have on the recruiting of top players. That's been over for 20+ years.

Townie, this is true as recruiting influence has shifted more towards parents and "handlers" however coaches still have plenty of influence. I have seen hs coaches refuse certain schools or specific coaches from meeting prospects in the school. This is typically the first opportunity a prospect has to meet coaches. HS Coaches also play a vital role during dead periods when contact between coaches and kids is limited.

 

[SU2NASA]

This is a great board for tracking all of the recruits going to other schools not named Syracuse.

 

[PhatOrange]

like it or not we switched places with rutgirls-they are a destination for quality kids,while su isnt-

they can show a decade of bowl games and winning seasons-su cant

you guys want to survive off past glory- it aint happening

everyone thinks the acc move will issue in a new era- while in reality the national perception is still a joke and will remain that way till we start to win -

rutgirls is a destination now for quality kids? really? you should go take a look at how many NJ kids have already committed to schools this year and then take notice how many have chosen rutgirls.

maybe if syracuse filled their schedule with 5 guaranteed wins every year like rutgirls does then syracuse could've shown a decade of bowl games. I've definitely advocated scheduling down but I think I'm the only one.

the move to the acc was definitely a factor in some our recruits decisions last year. a new era, im not sure, but it'll definitely open more doors.

 

[PhatOrange]

This is a great board for tracking all of the recruits going to other schools not named Syracuse.

you're right it is, it's a pretty well informed board where some people actually pay attention to the broader picture of what's happening elsewhere.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

rutgirls is a destination now for quality kids? really? you should go take a look at how many NJ kids have already committed to schools this year and then take notice how many have chosen rutgirls.

maybe if syracuse filled their schedule with 5 guaranteed wins every year like rutgirls does then syracuse could've shown a decade of bowl games. I've definitely advocated scheduling down but I think I'm the only one.

the move to the acc was definitely a factor in some our recruits decisions last year. a new era, im not sure, but it'll definitely open more doors.

Why intoduce facts into a predetermined agenda like mr rosconey's? He's a fan of winning teams only that score a lot of points and play " an exciting brand of football" The rest of us dumb fans just have our heads buried in the sand and don't understand simple supply and demand and consumer/ product behavior. We enjoy losing and not scoring points, especially Coach Marrone, clearly he doesn't understand that losing 5 games in a row isn't acceptable or the desired outcome. Clearly, any other coach would be winning.

 

[billsin01]

I've definitely advocated scheduling down but I think I'm the only one.

I've always said this as well -- the only reason I'm cool with them not doing it is b/c I know I won't pay any attention to FCS games and I probably won't get MAC games and others televised for the most part. But, generally speaking, it makes sense to do what RU did in this regard.

 

[billsin01]

we were a lock in nj when we were good-----this is all academic----we need to recruit better in nj

This is the key context in this thread that hasn't been mentioned much -- our focus shifted (intentionally or b/c our hand was forced, I'm not sure which) to MD/VA about the time our program started to struggle mightily (early 2000s). It's fine to wade into the waters down here and dip a toe in the rust belt and try to make concerted efforts in NY/LI, but it's hard to argue against the idea that decent success in NJ = talented rosters.

 

[orangenirvana]

maybe if syracuse filled their schedule with 5 guaranteed wins every year like rutgirls does then syracuse could've shown a decade of bowl games. I've definitely advocated scheduling down but I think I'm the only one.

I've always said this as well -- the only reason I'm cool with them not doing it is b/c I know I won't pay any attention to FCS games and I probably won't get MAC games and others televised for the most part. But, generally speaking, it makes sense to do what RU did in this regard.

Syracuse has "scheduled down" a LOT since the 90's and early 00's.

Unless by "schedule down" you mean the buttgers way. But I think a more appropriate term for that would be "schedule plummet."

 

[Townie72]

Townie, this is true as recruiting influence has shifted more towards parents and "handlers" however coaches still have plenty of influence. I have seen hs coaches refuse certain schools or specific coaches from meeting prospects in the school. This is typically the first opportunity a prospect has to meet coaches. HS Coaches also play a vital role during dead periods when contact between coaches and kids is limited.

Actually I have seen this refusal to allow a coach to meet with a prospect ocur too.

The parents got wind of it and requested a meeting with the AD and the Headmaster to understand why the football coach took it upon himself to do this. The college was one the parents were interested in. The coach was evening an old score with the school from a previous year.

The football coach got a letter of reprimand and a letter of explanation was sent to the parents at large. And the prspects parents told everyone that would listen what their view of what happened was and how outraged they were.

Needless to say, high school coach came away from that incident with a new appreciation on how he ought to conduct himself. A summary of this is that they stuck it so far up his tokus that he'll never forget it. No school and no staff members want to deal with pissed off parents and there might even be grounds for a lawsuit in this. By the way, the father of this kid was an attorney.

The pendelum has swung in the other direction these day. Even coach's recommendations are taken with a grain of salt by the recruiting colleges. No one trusts anyone.

 

[Chip]

I've always said this as well -- the only reason I'm cool with them not doing it is b/c I know I won't pay any attention to FCS games and I probably won't get MAC games and others televised for the most part. But, generally speaking, it makes sense to do what RU did in this regard.

It makes sense if you're building a program from scratch, as RU was. They were like Kansas State. There was no tradition to point to, no local interest, pretty much ever. So at least try to win some games, sell some snake oil, see if it works. It's not like you can look at your fanbase and say, well we have data that they won't attend games against MAC or FCS programs. They only had data that said they won't attend games, end of sentence.

Problem is, it's not sustainable. Once you start winning, you need to move forward. RU never did it. Yeah, they finally scheduled Arkansas this year, yippee. But too little too late. They expanded a stadium without fans to fill it. The act got tired, the program's upward momentum hit the Jersey wall. Conference expansion looked at the product and passed. Which cost them the only coach whoever made them a somewhat relevant program.

Syracuse may schedule too tough some years, but it hasn't been that tough all years. And we have the luxury of being a once, twice, three times a lady relevant football program. We have data that says fans don't want games against 1AAs, so while it may be business as usual to do it once in a 12 game season scenario, we have to schedule BCS Conference opponents. I'll take our way, it was part of an overall package that made us more attractive to stronger, more stable, conferences like the ACC.

 

[rrlbees]

Actually I have seen this refusal to allow a coach to meet with a prospect ocur too.

The parents got wind of it and requested a meeting with the AD and the Headmaster to understand why the football coach took it upon himself to do this. The college was one the parents were interested in. The coach was evening an old score with the school from a previous year.

The football coach got a letter of reprimand and a letter of explanation was sent to the parents at large. And the prspects parents told everyone that would listen what their view of what happened was and how outraged they were.

Needless to say, high school coach came away from that incident with a new appreciation on how he ought to conduct himself. A summary of this is that they stuck it so far up his tokus that he'll never forget it. No school and no staff members want to deal with pissed off parents and there might even be grounds for a lawsuit in this. By the way, the father of this kid was an attorney.

The pendelum has swung in the other direction these day. Even coach's recommendations are taken with a grain of salt by the recruiting colleges. No one trusts anyone.

that rarely happens. you minimize far too much the coaches. it's why college coaches invite has guys to clinics, do things for them etc. they may not be the end all, but they sure have an influence with many kids. it's not like bball where aau has taken over so much along with the agent runners.

 

[Townie72]

that rarely happens. you minimize far too much the coaches. it's why college coaches invite has guys to clinics, do things for them etc. they may not be the end all, but they sure have an influence with many kids. it's not like bball where aau has taken over so much along with the agent runners.

Your experience is at odds with mine. I am very close to two of Washington DC's top programs in terms of overall recruits for sports and have knowledge of at least two more. I have watched the whole recruiting process in multiple sports for a number of years.

Coaches don't have "zero" influence. They are most valuable as talent scouts and assessors for their own teams and for their opponents. But the view that they are a huge part of recruiting for most prospects is flawed.

Public school, and to an extent private school coaches, aren't going to stick their necks out. They push a kid in the direction of a school and things don't work out to the parent's expectations, then the high school coach is called an "idiot". The rewards are too small and the risks are too great. These are guys looking for a pension at some point in time.

 

[rrlbees]

My experience comes from coaches who recruit. Nobody said huge, but it is significant in some cases.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

My experience comes from coaches who recruit. Nobody said huge, but it is significant in some cases.

agreed, and all depends on the kid, also depends the kids how much the parents are involved and how well the parents know the coach as well... I know some coaches are really involved especially with a kid who may need some better looks at bigger schools. That is what established the whole relationship think with coaches, an assistant at say BC or Syracuse who takes the time to communicate with a coach about a kid that may or may not actually get an offer, review the tape, give feedback on a borderline kid. This bodes well when it comes to a slam dunk kid down the road. Coaches remember that stuff. It's all part of the sales technique

 

[DeepThrowIt]

High School coaches are the last "realists" around these kids (in most cases). This can be good and bad. Mom and Dad think Johnny is the best player in the world. His friends tell him the same thing. So does everyone in town. But Coach doesn't think he can play at Syracuse. This is where these relationships are beneficial. Due to sites like Scout and Rivals, recruiting has been blown way out of proportion. Kids can call these writers and claim tens of offers when in reality they have none. It isn't until a college coach reaches out to a high school coach that they will get the truth (again, in most cases).

 

[Townie72]

High School coaches are the last "realists" around these kids (in most cases). This can be good and bad. Mom and Dad think Johnny is the best player in the world. His friends tell him the same thing. So does everyone in town. But Coach doesn't think he can play at Syracuse. This is where these relationships are beneficial. Due to sites like Scout and Rivals, recruiting has been blown way out of proportion. Kids can call these writers and claim tens of offers when in reality they have none. It isn't until a college coach reaches out to a high school coach that they will get the truth (again, in most cases).

Just as I said, "They are useful as talent assessors".

But their ability to impact which school a kid selects continues to wain.

High school coaches are in a very difficult position on recruiting. It's generally good for their program to have kids playing in college, especially in high profile programs. But they are walking the line between the parents and the schools and its better to be conservative.

Sometimes knowing the truth about a kid and just how likely he is to succeed at a higher level is a problem for the coach given that the parents and friends almost always overestimate his talents and his chances. Telling a kid and his parents that their son ought to be looking a FBS when they have their heart set on Notre Dame is a very difficult task because they will be viewed as "negative" and an "idiot " for not being able to spot all this tremendous talent and potential that is obvious to them.

Selling that kid to a program and then having him show up as much less than advertised poisons the well at that school for that coach.