Gut feeling and other thoughts | Syracusefan.com

Gut feeling and other thoughts

CIL

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Tells me we start to execute the hurry up and no huddle offense to a greater extent over the remainder of the season. Well, at least I hope we do. We have had greater success moving the ball in that scheme over the last two weeks than our more traditional set.

I'm not going to beat on a dead horse, but clearly Ryan's accuracy holds us back a bit, however, his completions tend to come in bunches -- he is more of a rhythm thrower than a pure thrower. My hope is that we call some easy completions for him early (screens, hitch, slant) then pick up the momentum a bit.

As a premium tidbit, part of the "binder" included a hurry up/no huddle offense that had the ability to be more of a "balanced" spread if that makes some sense to you all. I would think that Northwestern's offense would come to mind. One that can speed up tempo, has a bit of the read option involved, but can also line up under center as well. That was the blueprint from what I was told. It appears as if that still may be part of the blueprint due to the QB's we have recruited in Kinder, Miller (fastest QB on the team when not punching out people), Hunt, and Broyld.

However, I have no idea what happened to that offense. I really don't. I know we worked on it last spring and this spring, only to see none of it during the season. Dave Rhame I think would back me up on this if he could publically do so, although I'm not sure if he can, and I understand that.

If I had to guess, and this point can be debated, we are not seeing this due to fear of Ryan getting injured, which is an indictment of Loeb's ability and Kinder's development as of right now. My second somewhat educated guess is that Doug has elected to keep things very vanilla because he is trying to "hedge" the season per say. I guess an analogy would be taking the air of the ball in hoops. Slow it down, keep it close, and win in the end. This had been relatively successful the last two years up until RU, UCONN, and L'Ville as we have lost the last three games in that same manner.

My gripe with Doug thusfar is not recruiting, the offense per say (although it is a by product of it), the rules of the program, etc. My gripe is that it appears as if he is afraid to allow the kids to make mistakes, which, in turn does not allow kids to make plays. To elaborate on this thought, it's almost as if cerebral mastery of the playbook trumps talent. I think that is permissable in the NFL when the physcial attributes between first and second string is marginal (obviously there are outliers). I'm not so sure it applies to the college game as much. Marcus Sales is a great example of this. Personally, I would like to see a lot more of Lynch and a lot less of Vaughan, who I believe is a step too slow to often.

I had the fortune of coaching underneath former WVU, Texas Tech, and SC head coach Jim Carlen. Jim had the fortune of coaching Heisman winner Geroge Rodgers in South Carolina. He used a anecdote to describe George. He would say I would run him until he dropped, and there were times I'm sure he didn't even know the play, but he sure knew how to gain yards. I think Doug could learn from that.

I wish he would apply it by given a kids like Kobena, Moore, Hale, Foster 20 plays to master. Maybe giving Kinder a set of plays to operate with, etc. Maybe he already does, but my gut tells me his model is know it all before you can play.

I think as fans, we can get very reactive and emotional. I know I do it all the time. Like 99% of posters on this board, from Milly to OrangePA to Orangenasty, I want Doug to succeed. It's tough to gauge his impact right now because we were so dreadful for so long. I think Trissy threw out the stat that we were 9-17 under Doug against BCS competition. I'm not sure how many people here realize that we were 5-35 under Robinson, and most of those were blowouts? We were probably one of the worst, if not the worst, BCS school in the nation for part of 4 years. He has elevated us from those depths. This is not a school that sits admist a recruiting hotbed like Texas Tech, or has a sugar daddy that has supplied us with otherworldly facilties like Oregon or Oklahoma St.

Our rebuilding process will not happen overnight I'm afraid. This is not Alabama, LSU, or USC to name a few where the turnaround can happen overnight. Doug's blueprint appears to be along the TCU mold, where we are recruitng raw athletes first and establishing positions second. Our athletes come from NYC, where these young men do not lift year round, participate in 7 on 7 camps, or play 12 games a year. These kids need two to three years in a system to physically mature and grasp the game better. Kids coming out of California, texas, and Florida are executing a 150 play offense. I would wager that most in NY have 20. Unfortunately our rebuilding process is going to be that much slower, and we as fans are going to have to be that much more patient.

I am going to with hold full judgement until next season -- we will have a mostly upperclass squad, and the ones filling in will have gameday experience. Defensively we pretty much lose Marinovich and Scott. Offensively we lose Chew, Provo, Bailey, Kay, and Tiller. All replacable.
 

Rocco

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Good post. I will say this, Provo will be the hardest to replace out of that bunch. He has been a huge asset the last 2 years. I don't see Wales or Stevens stepping into that role.
 

RF2044

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Interesting post, CIL. Per usual, your insights make a lot of sense. I enjoy reading what your perspective is on the team.

9 starters back on defense, with improved depth at DT and LB. Marinovich is a bigger loss than Scott, although replaceable [we have an experienced player in Sharpe who has started / played quite a bit].

6 starters back on offense, with only two key losses [Bailey / Provo], and one other who is solid [Tiller].

More importantly, for the first time in Marrone's tenure we'll have some year-over-year continuity at key positions to build upon next season, and something like 55 of the 85 guys on the roster are in their first and second year. Will be interesting to see if the leadership / experience dynamic becomes a factor in our favor as they ascend into being upperclassmen.
 

BORZAK

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Tells me we start to execute the hurry up and no huddle offense to a greater extent over the remainder of the season. Well, at least I hope we do. We have had greater success moving the ball in that scheme over the last two weeks than our more traditional set.

I'm not going to beat on a dead horse, but clearly Ryan's accuracy holds us back a bit, however, his completions tend to come in bunches -- he is more of a rhythm thrower than a pure thrower. My hope is that we call some easy completions for him early (screens, hitch, slant) then pick up the momentum a bit.

As a premium tidbit, part of the "binder" included a hurry up/no huddle offense that had the ability to be more of a "balanced" spread if that makes some sense to you all. I would think that Northwestern's offense would come to mind. One that can speed up tempo, has a bit of the read option involved, but can also line up under center as well. That was the blueprint from what I was told. It appears as if that still may be part of the blueprint due to the QB's we have recruited in Kinder, Miller (fastest QB on the team when not punching out people), Hunt, and Broyld.

However, I have no idea what happened to that offense. I really don't. I know we worked on it last spring and this spring, only to see none of it during the season. Dave Rhame I think would back me up on this if he could publically do so, although I'm not sure if he can, and I understand that.

If I had to guess, and this point can be debated, we are not seeing this due to fear of Ryan getting injured, which is an indictment of Loeb's ability and Kinder's development as of right now. My second somewhat educated guess is that Doug has elected to keep things very vanilla because he is trying to "hedge" the season per say. I guess an analogy would be taking the air of the ball in hoops. Slow it down, keep it close, and win in the end. This had been relatively successful the last two years up until RU, UCONN, and L'Ville as we have lost the last three games in that same manner.

My gripe with Doug thusfar is not recruiting, the offense per say (although it is a by product of it), the rules of the program, etc. My gripe is that it appears as if he is afraid to allow the kids to make mistakes, which, in turn does not allow kids to make plays. To elaborate on this thought, it's almost as if cerebral mastery of the playbook trumps talent. I think that is permissable in the NFL when the physcial attributes between first and second string is marginal (obviously there are outliers). I'm not so sure it applies to the college game as much. Marcus Sales is a great example of this. Personally, I would like to see a lot more of Lynch and a lot less of Vaughan, who I believe is a step too slow to often.

I had the fortune of coaching underneath former WVU, Texas Tech, and SC head coach Jim Carlen. Jim had the fortune of coaching Heisman winner Geroge Rodgers in South Carolina. He used a anecdote to describe George. He would say I would run him until he dropped, and there were times I'm sure he didn't even know the play, but he sure knew how to gain yards. I think Doug could learn from that.

I wish he would apply it by given a kids like Kobena, Moore, Hale, Foster 20 plays to master. Maybe giving Kinder a set of plays to operate with, etc. Maybe he already does, but my gut tells me his model is know it all before you can play.

I think as fans, we can get very reactive and emotional. I know I do it all the time. Like 99% of posters on this board, from Milly to OrangePA to Orangenasty, I want Doug to succeed. It's tough to gauge his impact right now because we were so dreadful for so long. I think Trissy threw out the stat that we were 9-17 under Doug against BCS competition. I'm not sure how many people here realize that we were 5-35 under Robinson, and most of those were blowouts? We were probably one of the worst, if not the worst, BCS school in the nation for part of 4 years. He has elevated us from those depths. This is not a school that sits admist a recruiting hotbed like Texas Tech, or has a sugar daddy that has supplied us with otherworldly facilties like Oregon or Oklahoma St.

Our rebuilding process will not happen overnight I'm afraid. This is not Alabama, LSU, or USC to name a few where the turnaround can happen overnight. Doug's blueprint appears to be along the TCU mold, where we are recruitng raw athletes first and establishing positions second. Our athletes come from NYC, where these young men do not lift year round, participate in 7 on 7 camps, or play 12 games a year. These kids need two to three years in a system to physically mature and grasp the game better. Kids coming out of California, texas, and Florida are executing a 150 play offense. I would wager that most in NY have 20. Unfortunately our rebuilding process is going to be that much slower, and we as fans are going to have to be that much more patient.

I am going to with hold full judgement until next season -- we will have a mostly upperclass squad, and the ones filling in will have gameday experience. Defensively we pretty much lose Marinovich and Scott. Offensively we lose Chew, Provo, Bailey, Kay, and Tiller. All replacable.
Great post
 
K

kingottoiii

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Good post.

I find it weird that we don't try and get Nassib going right away. I think the RI game is the only one we have. And we looked like a good O that half. I know it was only RI, but the plays and pace we used we a big part of that production.

Everyone knows Nassib struggles with the long ball. And he needs to use more touch at times on short balls. But I don't get the knock on his accuracy on this board. He made a ton of throws vs UConn that allowed for YAC. He has fit the ball in tight places plenty of times this year. The kid was 13-15 to start the 2nd half with the two incomplete being dropped. Bad QBs or QBs with no accuracy cannot do that. And this wasn't the first time he went on a streak like that. Now he certainly has had bad stretches, like the first 1.5 Qs vs UConn, but overall he is fine. We just need to get him started right away.
 

orlandoorange

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My gripe with Doug thusfar is not recruiting, the offense per say (although it is a by product of it), the rules of the program, etc. My gripe is that it appears as if he is afraid to allow the kids to make mistakes, which, in turn does not allow kids to make plays.

I agree... just from his comments and the words he chooses, he seems to fear failure too much. The irony is that you become so tightly wound that you bring about your failure. Lighten up, go out and make some mistakes.

"Don't let the fear of striking out hold you back."
Babe Ruth
 

OrangeXtreme

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Good post. I will say this, Provo will be the hardest to replace out of that bunch. He has been a huge asset the last 2 years. I don't see Wales or Stevens stepping into that role.

Louie Addazio?
 

Scooch

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Tells me we start to execute the hurry up and no huddle offense to a greater extent over the remainder of the season. Well, at least I hope we do. We have had greater success moving the ball in that scheme over the last two weeks than our more traditional set.

Excellent post.

I try to stay out of the debate on play calling, because every fan of every team complains about it. And in terms of offensive systems I'm largely agnostic, just gain yards, score points and I'm a happy camper, no matter how it gets done.

But the one thing that I've been really disappointed in the past 34 games under Marrone is the tempo of the offense. Marrone came in saying he wanted to run a high-tempo O and get us a lot of snaps. We have yet to do that unless we're desperate. This year in particular, when we knew the O was going to have to pull it's own weight (as opposed to last season) we've been agonizingly plodding.

I figure if we can't beat someone with quality, we might as well try to beat them with quantity. Run more plays, see how it goes.
 

oldpinepoint

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I'm hoping Broyld gets here for the spring or fall so he can have a year to learn the offense. I hope he gets a shot at QB
 

DCCuse

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Staff likes Wales a lot. Stevens has one more year as well I think.

I can confirm that one. Staff thinks Wales can step right in and replace Provo when he leaves.
 

Millhouse

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Tells me we start to execute the hurry up and no huddle offense to a greater extent over the remainder of the season. Well, at least I hope we do. We have had greater success moving the ball in that scheme over the last two weeks than our more traditional set.

I'm not going to beat on a dead horse, but clearly Ryan's accuracy holds us back a bit, however, his completions tend to come in bunches -- he is more of a rhythm thrower than a pure thrower. My hope is that we call some easy completions for him early (screens, hitch, slant) then pick up the momentum a bit.

As a premium tidbit, part of the "binder" included a hurry up/no huddle offense that had the ability to be more of a "balanced" spread if that makes some sense to you all. I would think that Northwestern's offense would come to mind. One that can speed up tempo, has a bit of the read option involved, but can also line up under center as well. That was the blueprint from what I was told. It appears as if that still may be part of the blueprint due to the QB's we have recruited in Kinder, Miller (fastest QB on the team when not punching out people), Hunt, and Broyld.

However, I have no idea what happened to that offense. I really don't. I know we worked on it last spring and this spring, only to see none of it during the season. Dave Rhame I think would back me up on this if he could publically do so, although I'm not sure if he can, and I understand that.

If I had to guess, and this point can be debated, we are not seeing this due to fear of Ryan getting injured, which is an indictment of Loeb's ability and Kinder's development as of right now. My second somewhat educated guess is that Doug has elected to keep things very vanilla because he is trying to "hedge" the season per say. I guess an analogy would be taking the air of the ball in hoops. Slow it down, keep it close, and win in the end. This had been relatively successful the last two years up until RU, UCONN, and L'Ville as we have lost the last three games in that same manner.

My gripe with Doug thusfar is not recruiting, the offense per say (although it is a by product of it), the rules of the program, etc. My gripe is that it appears as if he is afraid to allow the kids to make mistakes, which, in turn does not allow kids to make plays. To elaborate on this thought, it's almost as if cerebral mastery of the playbook trumps talent. I think that is permissable in the NFL when the physcial attributes between first and second string is marginal (obviously there are outliers). I'm not so sure it applies to the college game as much. Marcus Sales is a great example of this. Personally, I would like to see a lot more of Lynch and a lot less of Vaughan, who I believe is a step too slow to often.

I had the fortune of coaching underneath former WVU, Texas Tech, and SC head coach Jim Carlen. Jim had the fortune of coaching Heisman winner Geroge Rodgers in South Carolina. He used a anecdote to describe George. He would say I would run him until he dropped, and there were times I'm sure he didn't even know the play, but he sure knew how to gain yards. I think Doug could learn from that.

I wish he would apply it by given a kids like Kobena, Moore, Hale, Foster 20 plays to master. Maybe giving Kinder a set of plays to operate with, etc. Maybe he already does, but my gut tells me his model is know it all before you can play.

I think as fans, we can get very reactive and emotional. I know I do it all the time. Like 99% of posters on this board, from Milly to OrangePA to Orangenasty, I want Doug to succeed. It's tough to gauge his impact right now because we were so dreadful for so long. I think Trissy threw out the stat that we were 9-17 under Doug against BCS competition. I'm not sure how many people here realize that we were 5-35 under Robinson, and most of those were blowouts? We were probably one of the worst, if not the worst, BCS school in the nation for part of 4 years. He has elevated us from those depths. This is not a school that sits admist a recruiting hotbed like Texas Tech, or has a sugar daddy that has supplied us with otherworldly facilties like Oregon or Oklahoma St.

Our rebuilding process will not happen overnight I'm afraid. This is not Alabama, LSU, or USC to name a few where the turnaround can happen overnight. Doug's blueprint appears to be along the TCU mold, where we are recruitng raw athletes first and establishing positions second. Our athletes come from NYC, where these young men do not lift year round, participate in 7 on 7 camps, or play 12 games a year. These kids need two to three years in a system to physically mature and grasp the game better. Kids coming out of California, texas, and Florida are executing a 150 play offense. I would wager that most in NY have 20. Unfortunately our rebuilding process is going to be that much slower, and we as fans are going to have to be that much more patient.

I am going to with hold full judgement until next season -- we will have a mostly upperclass squad, and the ones filling in will have gameday experience. Defensively we pretty much lose Marinovich and Scott. Offensively we lose Chew, Provo, Bailey, Kay, and Tiller. All replacable.
marrone might think that nassib has a lower mean win total than kinder or hunt and a smaller standard deviation. the upside chance of moving from 6 to 7 wins isn't worth an increase in the downside risk of moving from 6 to 5 wins.

i know it sounds like i'm projecting here because i think nassib is really quite terrible. but i'm separating that from this, i swear.

marrone's going to lose his mind if they lose the next 2.

also, if our recruits know offenses with fewer plays, maybe our offense should have fewer plays.
 

OrangeTarheel

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I will take risk averse any day of the week.

Thanks for posting this in a week that is filled with meltdown posts. I didn't see this level of anger and disappointment when Greggers was doing his thing. Marrone has fans believing we can win again (and upset when we don't.) I think that's great and I'm bullish on our future.
 

rrlbees

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Good post for the most part but I still can't get past the point some try to make and that is it should be expected we would lose to all 3 of LVille, rutgers and UConn because Marrone has such a re-building job. No matter the record before, now 9-17 is a big deal? I don't buy it. The staff should be ashamed for pissing away 3 possible wins, especially rutgers and UConn. We ARE good enough RIGHT NOW to have won those games regardless of what happened 4 years ago.
 

Scooch

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I didn't see this level of anger and disappointment when Greggers was doing his thing.

You're kidding, right? I, for one, had my most embarassing, epic meltdown after we got humiliated by PSU back in '08. At that point I thought I was long past the point of furious, white-hot anger towards GumpRob, but after watching that debacle that day I would have punched him in the neck had I been within 50 feet of him.
 

kingtidge

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Good post for the most part but I still can't get past the point some try to make and that is it should be expected we would lose to all 3 of LVille, rutgers and UConn because Marrone has such a re-building job. No matter the record before, now 9-17 is a big deal? I don't buy it. The staff should be ashamed for pissing away 3 possible wins, especially rutgers and UConn. We ARE good enough RIGHT NOW to have won those games regardless of what happened 4 years ago.

AMEN... Flubbing games against poor competition the way we have this season is not encouraging...
 

upperdeck

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its far different to lose close games you could have won than to lose games and get killed every time. we have climbed 50% of the hill , the question is how far up the hill can we get. had we won the uconn/rut games (which were so winnable) and be sitting at 7-2 would we really be that much better a team? we have holes and issues , some are still pretty large.. if we were 8-1 right now we still would still have those issues..

but even a 5 wins the season is far more respectable than those of just 3-4 years ago..
 

rrlbees

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its far different to lose close games you could have won than to lose games and get killed every time. we have climbed 50% of the hill , the question is how far up the hill can we get. had we won the uconn/rut games (which were so winnable) and be sitting at 7-2 would we really be that much better a team? we have holes and issues , some are still pretty large.. if we were 8-1 right now we still would still have those issues..

but even a 5 wins the season is far more respectable than those of just 3-4 years ago..

So in other words because we were so bad 4 years ago it is ok to lose games we should win now.
 

upperdeck

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nope.. but you cant over look they fact they are now winnable. You also can see the issues we have that get exploited the coaches are fully aware of..

even Uconn could only really run one kind of power play. teams that stop it they cant move at all.. too bad we struggled to stop it in one half.. we at least looked like a team using a play book. and they couldnt stop us either. we just made one mistake too many..
 

Chip

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This post is a good read. And it would be encouraging if that vision for the offense became a reality. I have my concerns because I wonder if Marrone will ever have the comfort level with one of his recruited QBs to take it there. I just don't think he's involved with the level of recruits he would want at that position. But when he is finally forced to go to a Kinder or a Hunt, I think the offense will still be more productive, just based on that extra athletic dimension that Marrone knows he needs to make use of.

I'm still with bees a bit on this though. I'm not a big fan of the big picture when it comes to looking at a particular game or how we lost. I think we're capable of more. And I KNOW Marrone thinks we're capable of winning these games. I'm sure most of our players did not have an enjoyable film session with the coaches breaking down the UConn film. Those missing tackles especially.

On offense, I like that we go back to things that work within a game, but I'm not seeing where we go back to things that worked in previous games. Don't think I've seen a TE wheel route since WVU, we're that sure everyone is keying? Nassib has run for 2 TDs on spread option keepers. We just let a QB, who shouldn't ever be confused with Pat White, walk all over our defense with that play, while we kept running right through a clogged A gap. Why not try some of that option ourselves, we've obviously practiced it quite a bit, looked very crisp in games. Offense looked a lot better against UConn than it did against Louisville, but there's no reason we can't approach something between UConn and WVU each game, 30 point range.

Defense in the 2nd half was disappointing, but I don't expect to see anything like that going forward. We hadn't seen it up until then. I know stopping the run was a concern coming into the season, but we've answered that. No reason to start falling apart now, it's a healthy D I believe.

Special Teams, this isn't like last year where we were depleted. And we're always going to play younger guys on those coverage teams, so they just need to be better. That was even more disappointing on Saturday.
 

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