Gut feeling and other thoughts

[GoSU96]

Tells me we start to execute the hurry up and no huddle offense to a greater extent over the remainder of the season. Well, at least I hope we do. We have had greater success moving the ball in that scheme over the last two weeks than our more traditional set.

I'm not going to beat on a dead horse, but clearly Ryan's accuracy holds us back a bit, however, his completions tend to come in bunches -- he is more of a rhythm thrower than a pure thrower. My hope is that we call some easy completions for him early (screens, hitch, slant) then pick up the momentum a bit.

As a premium tidbit, part of the "binder" included a hurry up/no huddle offense that had the ability to be more of a "balanced" spread if that makes some sense to you all. I would think that Northwestern's offense would come to mind. One that can speed up tempo, has a bit of the read option involved, but can also line up under center as well. That was the blueprint from what I was told. It appears as if that still may be part of the blueprint due to the QB's we have recruited in Kinder, Miller (fastest QB on the team when not punching out people), Hunt, and Broyld.

However, I have no idea what happened to that offense. I really don't. I know we worked on it last spring and this spring, only to see none of it during the season. Dave Rhame I think would back me up on this if he could publically do so, although I'm not sure if he can, and I understand that.

If I had to guess, and this point can be debated, we are not seeing this due to fear of Ryan getting injured, which is an indictment of Loeb's ability and Kinder's development as of right now. My second somewhat educated guess is that Doug has elected to keep things very vanilla because he is trying to "hedge" the season per say. I guess an analogy would be taking the air of the ball in hoops. Slow it down, keep it close, and win in the end. This had been relatively successful the last two years up until RU, UCONN, and L'Ville as we have lost the last three games in that same manner.

My gripe with Doug thusfar is not recruiting, the offense per say (although it is a by product of it), the rules of the program, etc. My gripe is that it appears as if he is afraid to allow the kids to make mistakes, which, in turn does not allow kids to make plays. To elaborate on this thought, it's almost as if cerebral mastery of the playbook trumps talent. I think that is permissable in the NFL when the physcial attributes between first and second string is marginal (obviously there are outliers). I'm not so sure it applies to the college game as much. Marcus Sales is a great example of this. Personally, I would like to see a lot more of Lynch and a lot less of Vaughan, who I believe is a step too slow to often.

I had the fortune of coaching underneath former WVU, Texas Tech, and SC head coach Jim Carlen. Jim had the fortune of coaching Heisman winner Geroge Rodgers in South Carolina. He used a anecdote to describe George. He would say I would run him until he dropped, and there were times I'm sure he didn't even know the play, but he sure knew how to gain yards. I think Doug could learn from that.

I wish he would apply it by given a kids like Kobena, Moore, Hale, Foster 20 plays to master. Maybe giving Kinder a set of plays to operate with, etc. Maybe he already does, but my gut tells me his model is know it all before you can play.

I think as fans, we can get very reactive and emotional. I know I do it all the time. Like 99% of posters on this board, from Milly to OrangePA to Orangenasty, I want Doug to succeed. It's tough to gauge his impact right now because we were so dreadful for so long. I think Trissy threw out the stat that we were 9-17 under Doug against BCS competition. I'm not sure how many people here realize that we were 5-35 under Robinson, and most of those were blowouts? We were probably one of the worst, if not the worst, BCS school in the nation for part of 4 years. He has elevated us from those depths. This is not a school that sits admist a recruiting hotbed like Texas Tech, or has a sugar daddy that has supplied us with otherworldly facilties like Oregon or Oklahoma St.

Our rebuilding process will not happen overnight I'm afraid. This is not Alabama, LSU, or USC to name a few where the turnaround can happen overnight. Doug's blueprint appears to be along the TCU mold, where we are recruitng raw athletes first and establishing positions second. Our athletes come from NYC, where these young men do not lift year round, participate in 7 on 7 camps, or play 12 games a year. These kids need two to three years in a system to physically mature and grasp the game better. Kids coming out of California, texas, and Florida are executing a 150 play offense. I would wager that most in NY have 20. Unfortunately our rebuilding process is going to be that much slower, and we as fans are going to have to be that much more patient.

I am going to with hold full judgement until next season -- we will have a mostly upperclass squad, and the ones filling in will have gameday experience. Defensively we pretty much lose Marinovich and Scott. Offensively we lose Chew, Provo, Bailey, Kay, and Tiller. All replacable.

Nice summation.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

So in other words because we were so bad 4 years ago it is ok to lose games we should win now.

That is absolutely what people are saying. They don't realize it, and they deny it, but that's what they are saying.

 

[GoSU96]

Interesting post, CIL. Per usual, your insights make a lot of sense. I enjoy reading what your perspective is on the team.

9 starters back on defense, with improved depth at DT and LB. Marinovich is a bigger loss than Scott, although replaceable [we have an experienced player in Sharpe who has started / played quite a bit].

6 starters back on offense, with only two key losses [Bailey / Provo], and one other who is solid [Tiller].

More importantly, for the first time in Marrone's tenure we'll have some year-over-year continuity at key positions to build upon next season, and something like 55 of the 85 guys on the roster are in their first and second year. Will be interesting to see if the leadership / experience dynamic becomes a factor in our favor as they ascend into being upperclassmen.

10 back on defense, Scott lost his spot.

 

[Cuseregular]

I think Millhouses assessment is spot on. I understand the thinking by them maybe they feel they need to get bowl eligible to avoid the perception of a step backward with the program before changing things up, with the fear that change results in more loss than gain with turnovers, etc. creating more issues than the potential for increased production. But the concern is that by staying with more of the same you have the same danger of not getting to six anyway. All that being said this week is NOT the week to make any major changes sans maybe getting Kinder (or whomever they think is the qb of the future) in for a series or two much like they did with Ryan when Paulus was here.

If one asked me today I'd answer I'm not yet concerned with the general trend as I firmly believe he's accepting some short term pain for long term gain. And that the plan is for a more dynamic O with more dynamic players in the fold. If they don't get bowl eligible then yes add some overall concern but still nothing fatal. Next year is key.

Lets get big picture, we're 5-4 not 3-6 and that make a difference. I'll link my thoughts from an earlier thread that explain my non concern/worry at this point as Believe it not I'm not surprised at the last two and expected it...

http://www.syracusefan.com/threads/this-game-was-an-absolute-disgrace.6382/page-3#post-64502

As I said it just is what it is with this sport and emotion. And believe it or not the reported dissension within the team can actually end up working to their advantage. Creating emotion if you will. To quote Anthony Robbins they need a "pattern interruption" right now to break the pattern and provide emotion. It just doesn't happen by itself in going through the motions of practice and the routine which at this point of the season it becomes.

It ended up hurting them the past two weeks this lack of emotion and the high from the big W is usually inevitably followed by the lows of emotion/energy for a while thereafter. And theyre not talented enough to overcome this. Not talented enough to overcome slow starts, turnovers, missed tackles etc. that the low energy emotion always brings.

Now this can end up being a constructive situation (with team meetings, players only meeting, heart to hearts, with a dallop of tongue lashings from leaders both coaches and players); if that occurs and they get all on the same page with some healing after a airing out and venting of concerns, feelings, etc., then they can band together and feed off that collectively and focus that emotion to production on the field. Hey you and know that can happen. Especially if theres no cancers on this team in terms of personalities which I believe is the case as Marrones approach doesn't allow such kids to take root it appears.

I think they get all on the same page overcoming all the above, win this weekend and one more of the next two. Big weeks these next three in terms of program direction.

 

[GoCuse44]

I can confirm that one. Staff thinks Wales can step right in and replace Provo when he leaves.

Wales will replace Provo at TE and if Marrone lands Thompson we will be in great shape.

 

[GoSU96]

So in other words because we were so bad 4 years ago it is ok to lose games we should win now.

There's a huge difference from it being "ok" (whatever that means) and understanding the factors on why it happened.

 

[tipphill]

to be very simplistic nassib and the entire offense plays much better when playing uptempo---easier to establish a rythem and less time to overthink things. with our deliberate slow play calling, it takes away the spontanaity from the players and their excitement. we must play the offense much faster.(wake forrest)-- and not think as much---play the game

 

[Cuseman78]

So in other words because we were so bad 4 years ago it is ok to lose games we should win now.

So you're telling me that good coaches don't lose games to teams that they should beat? This happens every weekend in CFB. Its not an excuse, its a reality. This shouldnt at all be surprising considering that the board was expecting a 6-6, 7-5 type of team this year. We're still on pace to get that.

 

[rrlbees]

There's a huge difference from it being "ok" (whatever that means) and understanding the factors on why it happened.

Maybe you can explain those factors to me because it wasn't talent.

Sent from my DROIDX

 

[OrangePA]

Really good post.

Always thought Jim Carlen was a very good coach. Cool to hear you worked with him.

I think your assessment is right - I think Doug has every intention of implementing an offense that manipulates tempo - I think he said that soon after he was hired.

But some things have placed a hold on that strategy: (1) he has indicated recently that he felt he needed to first recruit on defense to become competitive; (2) he does not have the talent right now at QB to run an up tempo offense; (3) he needs to win now to get to bowls and improve recruiting and fund raising and (4) he is conforming the offense to what he has in order to accomplish that immediate set of goals.

Because of where the program was when he inherited it, I think you have to give him at least three more years to get to where we want to be - especially with the 27 month issue before us.

And I'm fine with that.

 

[Orangello]

This.

Double This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[SaintTristan]

So you're telling me that good coaches don't lose games to teams that they should beat? This happens every weekend in CFB. Its not an excuse, its a reality. This shouldnt at all be surprising considering that the board was expecting a 6-6, 7-5 type of team this year. We're still on pace to get that.

Marrone is very very very very lucky that we got into the ACC - losing to rutgers and UCONN would otherwise be absolutely devastating to recruiting.

Good coaches should not lose to this UCONN team, no. They sucked. they had nothing.

 

[javadoc]

But some things have placed a hold on that strategy:

Didn't Dr. Gross say that one of the crucial benefits of ACC membership was that we would be able to pay market value for our coaches? If Hackett isn't up to everyone's standards, then maybe he is all we can afford right now. Maybe the guys some here would like to have won't give us a sniff at whatever rate we're paying our OC at the moment.

At this point it does seem fairly straightforward and simple. We don't have solid starting talent at QB. The backups aren't ready to go due to developmental issues - too much time getting up to speed, which is unfortunately where we are in recruiting in general. We are relying on too many young guys on defense who needed more time in the weight room and more time learning how to play ball at this level. We aren't snaring the ready-to-go impact recruits because our name was (is?) mud, our facilities are worst in the freaking BE, our fan support turns off the higher profile guys when they visit, and we aren't running a party program.

The common thread under all this (IMO) is the lack of financial dedication to the program. The hole is vast and I fear it will take a couple years of ACC paychecks to clamber out.

Next year doesn't look much better, unless we get more dynamic QB play. We'll be swapping in guys on OL who are either too young/inexperienced (Hickey, Trudo) or stopgaps (Big Lou and any other JUCO's). I expect the D to be a lot better, but if Kinder or one of the other running QB's doesn't unseat Nassib, do you expect the game planning and offense to be any different?

I hoped for 6-6 this season and if we get there I'm content, even knowing everything we do now.

 

[Cuseman78]

Marrone is very very very very lucky that we got into the ACC - losing to rutgers and UCONN would otherwise be absolutely devastating to recruiting.

Good coaches should not lose to this UCONN team, no. They sucked. they had nothing.

I guess Pitt fans feel the same way then. Good teams lose to worse teams each and every weekend. Do you think WVU fans were thrilled they lost to a less talented Syracuse team? For what it's worth, we were underdogs to this Uconn team. This wasn't exactly Rutgrs '01 redux.

 

[GoSU96]

Marrone is very very very very lucky that we got into the ACC - losing to rutgers and UCONN would otherwise be absolutely devastating to recruiting.

Good coaches should not lose to this UCONN team, no. They sucked. they had nothing.

Weren't you all in on the Skip Holtz? How's that going.

This just in, they lost to Uconn.
12-9 overall/6-9 BCS taking over a team that went 8-5, 8-5, 9-4, 9-4 the previous four years.

 

[A Clockwork Orange]

So in other words because we were so bad 4 years ago it is ok to lose games we should win now.

Jumping in on this conversation mid-stream. I really think most success stories have a lot of fits and starts along the way. We as fans always want to see smooth progression through the years, but there are many more peaks and valleys then level success. I think that's happening this year.

We had a huge win over WVU (maybe they aren't as good as we all thought they were at the time but this team still beat them down) and then lose to UConn and L'Ville. That's the growing pains of a program that doesn't have an absolute talent edge over Rutgers, UConn, and L'Ville. It's definitely discouraging, but I'm willing to give a couple more years. After year 5 I think it's absolutely time to re-assess.

With that said, I definitely get frustrated when it seems like we fundamentally can't compete with teams we are capable of beating.

I actually think we beat Cincy and USF simply because our style of 'D' and 'O' match up better with those programs. We might lose one or both, but I think we'll look better in the process regardless.

 

[Upstate]

Does anyone think that Marrone over thinks things a tad too much? Maybe going too deep into what plays might work, rather than go with his gut and not the numbers...Personally, I think he's overworking himself, and I know he is a good coach, but maybe he needs to think on his feet moreso than use what was planned for a specific situation.

 

[Bayside44]

I am a little surprised that we're not really talking about what we're missing on the field. We're not the New York Giants that can drop a Steve Smith or Hakim Nicks and still beat the Patriots on their field because they have so much depth and talent.

Lose a Sales, Collier, Fairchild - nice highly recruited kids that would be senior leaders now can do some damage, esp when the head coach has to go out and get a bunch of talented but raw kids that are gonna take some time to be game ready.

That's one of the reasons I think this three year nonsense is nonsense. This isn't hoops, it takes a fair amount of time to get kids in the system and to mature in it.

 

[Scooch]

Jumping in on this conversation mid-stream. I really think most success stories have a lot of fits and starts along the way. We as fans always want to see smooth progression through the years, but there are many more peaks and valleys then level success. I think that's happening this year.

This is so true.

I always hesitate to use the NFL as an example, but in this case it fits. Back in the 90s my Patriots hired Bill Parcells. We went 5-11, then leapfrogged to 10-6 and made the playoffs, next year was a disappointing 6-10, but then we went 11-5 and made the Super Bowl. Fast forward to Bill Belichick and he starts 5-11, then goes 11-5 and wins the Super Bowl, but then falls back to 9-7 missing the playoffs, and then 14-2 and wins another Super Bowl.

It's rarely linear.

 

[javadoc]

Lose a Sales, Collier, Fairchild - nice highly recruited kids that would be senior leaders now

Right on. This year's true freshmen were almost all (all?) captains on their HS teams. Wonder how many of them are chafing at the leadership so far this year.

 

[rrlbees]

So you're telling me that good coaches don't lose games to teams that they should beat? This happens every weekend in CFB. Its not an excuse, its a reality. This shouldnt at all be surprising considering that the board was expecting a 6-6, 7-5 type of team this year. We're still on pace to get that.

Not to all of them, that's the point.

 

[SaintTristan]

Weren't you all in on the Skip Holtz? How's that going.

This just in, they lost to Uconn.
12-9 overall/6-9 BCS taking over a team that went 8-5, 8-5, 9-4, 9-4 the previous four years.

no, i wasnt. you are either making that up or confusing me for someone else. Skip didnt offend me as much as the hiring of marrone, though.

in another post you say: "...it takes a fair amount of time to get kids in the system and to mature in it."

this is true and reasonable...if recruiting was going well. but it isnt. So we are left with a team that cant do basic things right (you can lose but still look fundamentally sound on things like tackling and ST).

SU, Rutgers and UCONN have a tripartite rivalry. and we just got slapped down by our rivals.

in any other post you whine about our missing players. every team is missing at this point in the season and no team in the BE can afford to be without their guys. that excuse is BS.

 

[Cuseman78]

Not to all of them, that's the point.

He didn't. See Wake, see West Virginia. See USF (in 4 days)

 

[rrlbees]

Right on. This year's true freshmen were almost all (all?) captains on their HS teams. Wonder how many of them are chafing at the leadership so far this year.

Leadership of whom? Coaches or players?

 

[javadoc]

Leadership of whom? Coaches or players?

All. If a Marrone team is starting to lose the grudge matches it sounds like something is unwell behind the orange curtain. Again, nothing that shocks me, given where we are.