Help Me Here

[cuse309]

Still sticking with it? Even after they pasted us last year with their style of play? Meatheads 42 ... FlashNDash 14. You and your fellow Offensively minded buddies have yet to prove your theory after 2 years...and we aren't running Bembo, Bell, and Patterson out there. We've had 2 of our most prolific WRs ever the past two years and can't win more than 4 games because defensively we are horrible, we hand the ball back to some of the best offenses in the game after 15 seconds and 3 failed passes. I'm hoping for more this year, no doubt I'm on board. But these comments about other teams style of play are absolutely laughable at this point.

Before you get into well this year mode...Dino has never needed 3 years to implement his system. We are actually entering uncharted territory this year as he's never been anywhere as a coach for 3 years. I'm hoping for the best but it's entirely possible that his system has a ceiling too and it's G5.

I agree with this mostly.
I bolded the part about Dino, because turning around a program doesn't happen in a vacuum. The talent gap between what he inherited, and the top of the MAC, was far, far, less than the gap between Syracuse and Florida State/Clemson. Also, the MAC schools, for the most part, get similarly talented recruits...not so with the bottom and top of the ACC. No reasonable fan should look at the speed at which Dino succeeded at his previous
stops, and try and draw a parallel to the speed at which it is acceptable to turn Syracuse around.
People will point to Dino stating that it takes midway through year 2. Dino didn't say that. Dino was asked about his previous 2 stops, and how long it took his teams to click. He answered the question. He never said that the same thing would happen here.

 

[RandomGuy]

Still sticking with it? Even after they pasted us last year with their style of play? Meatheads 42 ... FlashNDash 14. You and your fellow Offensively minded buddies have yet to prove your theory after 2 years...and we aren't running Bembo, Bell, and Patterson out there. We've had 2 of our most prolific WRs ever the past two years and can't win more than 4 games because defensively we are horrible, we hand the ball back to some of the best offenses in the game after 15 seconds and 3 failed passes. I'm hoping for more this year, no doubt I'm on board. But these comments about other teams style of play are absolutely laughable at this point.

Before you get into well this year mode...Dino has never needed 3 years to implement his system. We are actually entering uncharted territory this year as he's never been anywhere as a coach for 3 years. I'm hoping for the best but it's entirely possible that his system has a ceiling too and it's G5.

:rolling::rolling::rolling:

My only disagreement, is that Baylor's last 5 years were good for 50-15. (Coincidentally, Briles started with back to back 4-8)

 

[CousCuse]

BC has the best running back in the country. By himself he will win at least 8 games.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Still sticking with it? Even after they pasted us last year with their style of play? Meatheads 42 ... FlashNDash 14. You and your fellow Offensively minded buddies have yet to prove your theory after 2 years...and we aren't running Bembo, Bell, and Patterson out there. We've had 2 of our most prolific WRs ever the past two years and can't win more than 4 games because defensively we are horrible, we hand the ball back to some of the best offenses in the game after 15 seconds and 3 failed passes. I'm hoping for more this year, no doubt I'm on board. But these comments about other teams style of play are absolutely laughable at this point.

Before you get into well this year mode...Dino has never needed 3 years to implement his system. We are actually entering uncharted territory this year as he's never been anywhere as a coach for 3 years. I'm hoping for the best but it's entirely possible that his system has a ceiling too and it's G5.

Yeah I have the rest of college football and the way the sport is trending on the side of my "theory," so, I'm good, but yes, fine, I'll concede that every now and again a meathead bangs it's head against a wall.

 

[CousCuse]

You got to crawl before you can walk, and you have to walk before you can run, and you have to run before you can pass.

 

[RandomGuy]

Yeah I have the rest of college football and the way the sport is trending on the side of my "theory," so, I'm good, but yes, fine, I'll concede that every now and again a meathead bangs it's head against a wall.

Do you have a list of winning teams with a poor running attack?

 

[RandomGuy]

The funniest part of this thread, is that we probably talked more about BC football than they do. Almost NO ONE cares about BC, in Boston.

Boston metro area, population 4.6 million.
Greater Boston(within an hour) 8.1 million
Greater Syracuse 660k.

Similar football attendance.

If we had the same interest in our football team, as they do? We'd be trying to crack 3000 for attendance. Thats how little they care. If they win 10 games, no one in Boston will even know. They didn't talk about it when they were ranked from 2004-2007. They aren't even allowed to talk about them on sports radio.(kills ratings).

We'll always care. They never will.

 

[Ish88888]

I hate posts like this because “meathead” has strong negative connotations, especially on this board.

In reality, special teams aside, the only things that matter are how efficient the offense and defense are, how well they work together, and how well they fit/maximize the team’s current and potential talent.

Yards, points, etc. don’t matter in the abstract. But this forum insists on labeling anything that doesn’t put up insane numbers (in the abstract) as almost heretical, and certainly stupid and bad. That level of analysis is shallow at best, and it’s miskeading at worst.

And before anybody jumps on me for saying yards and points don’t matter in the abstract, ask yourself if you’d rather have 700 yards and 3 points or 150 yards and 35 points. Then ask yourself if you’d rather have 60 points vs a team w/ 70 or 7 points vs a team w/ 3.

????? I think you should ask yourself if Gin with an empty stomach or after dinner? "Special teams aside...the only things that matter is how efficient is the offense and defense is"...whoa. and the meathead political remark. Not interested in the political correctness. I love this board and you should too. Consider it sitting around the hole in the wall corner bar and chatting with some friends and some strangers about sports. Thus, not interested in political correctness on a meathead comment. I have a feeling you couldn't identify Addazio if he fell outta the sky onto you and your bottle.
I played nice administrators, please keep me around.

 

[blizz]

I love meatheads. Really good with gravy.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Do you have a list of winning teams with a poor running attack?

What kinda nerd do you think I am, that I just carry lists around like that?

 

[RandomGuy]

What kinda nerd do you think I am, that I just carry lists around like that?

LOL! My point was that there are few, and you might not be able to name 1. I can't. Is it because Shafer was so bad at coaching "Meathead" football ? Is that why so many here seem to hate it? For me, it's just basic fundamentals. Sure. Throw it well, too. When it's not a meathead game, it's called 7v7. And that sucks. I really don't think most people understand whats going on in the trenches. That's fine. I don't watch the QB/RB. I watch the line, because it tells you everything that is going to happen.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

LOL! My point was that there are few, and you might not be able to name 1. I can't. Is it because Shafer was so bad at coaching "Meathead" football ? Is that why so many here seem to hate it? For me, it's just basic fundamentals. Sure. Throw it well, too. When it's not a meathead game, it's called 7v7. And that sucks. I really don't think most people understand whats going on in the trenches. That's fine. I don't watch the QB/RB. I watch the line, because it tells you everything that is going to happen.

I hate meathead football because we play in a Dome, yet for decades we were committed to being the meatiest of the meatheads and all we got to see from it was a run of absolutely garbage offense and a trio of ok bowls.

Our cieling is higher than that, and with a modern offense oriented system, it isn't a question of if we get there, but when.

 

[RandomGuy]

????? I think you should ask yourself if Gin with an empty stomach or after dinner? "Special teams aside...the only things that matter is how efficient is the offense and defense is"...whoa. and the meathead political remark. Not interested in the political correctness. I love this board and you should too. Consider it sitting around the hole in the wall corner bar and chatting with some friends and some strangers about sports. Thus, not interested in political correctness on a meathead comment. I have a feeling you couldn't identify Addazio if he fell outta the sky onto you and your bottle.
I played nice administrators, please keep me around.

Prefer the lack of political correctness, as well.. ;-) Honestly Ish, I think he's just expanding on what Dino was preaching last year. "Consistently good, not occasionally great." Occasionally great gets you #'s. Consistently good is about being more efficient than the other team - all phases.

 

[RandomGuy]

I hate meathead football because we play in a Dome, yet for decades we were committed to being the meatiest of the meatheads and all we got to see from it was a run of absolutely garbage offense and a trio of ok bowls.

Our cieling is higher than that, and with a modern offense oriented system, it isn't a question of if we get there, but when.

That makes more sense. There should be an element of air attack, when you have a dome. An air attack is more dependent on skill positions. I think the big east falling apart from 2002 -2012 may have hurt us in that department. Thank God, we're back in the ACC.

Oline is the most difficult position to learn/prepare for on the field. I've read it takes at least 2 years to make a P5 lineman. Adazzio gets the lowest ACC recruiting classes, but he can teach that(Oline) VERY well. He's not bad at Def, either. He's gotta play meathead. He succeeds because he's focusing on a position that rely's on coaching, above all. Even the NFL has to continue developing top O linemen(google it, some call it a crisis). Shafer grabbed some decent recruits, but as far as I'm concerned, we weren't P5, til Dino took over.

Babers is interesting. The speed allows him to play just a touch above his skill level. Our meathead side needs improvement. Only then, do we go bowling. While I'm hoping for DEF improvements... Adding Cavanaugh to the oline may help. Lynch will still pitch in as he's the OC(with Dino). That still has to be nailed down for Dino's system to be consistent. The "meathead" part. That's what makes Devito pop in 2019... We don't get the skill players we did in the 80's,90',s til we nail this down. Meathead is the essence of football. If you feel differently, you are better suited for soccer. (minus the 18 years of pain, of course. I understand that. )

When Dino closes the "meathead" gap, we succeed. I hate that term. It's a fundamental term, that has been the base of every winning football team... Ever. Dino is modern, but if you think he doesn't get the need for successful "meathead" football... You don't understand football. He's preaching run game , AGAIN, this year. No football coach, in the history of time, ever said it wasn't won in the trenches.

My hope is that we bowl this year... Might get back to 80's 90's recruiting. Adazzio? He doesn't care. He's always going to coach the "meathead" fundamentals, til he gets 4 and 5 star recruits. (unlikely) He'll keep sending kids to the NFL, because he can teach fundamentals. He's a really good coach. Babers can do better...

 

[nzm136]

????? I think you should ask yourself if Gin with an empty stomach or after dinner? "Special teams aside...the only things that matter is how efficient is the offense and defense is"...whoa. and the meathead political remark. Not interested in the political correctness. I love this board and you should too. Consider it sitting around the hole in the wall corner bar and chatting with some friends and some strangers about sports. Thus, not interested in political correctness on a meathead comment. I have a feeling you couldn't identify Addazio if he fell outta the sky onto you and your bottle.
I played nice administrators, please keep me around.

There’s a difference between political correctness and accuracy, just as there’s a difference between being politically correct and putting thought into what you write.

The “meathead” narrative, as it’s often propagated on this forum, is wrong, and it doesn’t really advance discourse, much like random ad hominem attacks. Being in a bar, virtual or otherwise, doesn’t change those facts.

And much like random ad hominem attacks, the meathead narrative is almost universially propagated by the posters who have the least sophisticated analysis, as they confuse the importance raw stats w/ pace adjusted stats. For example, I’ve literally had a poster tell me that 14 points in 1,000 drives is better than 7 points in 1 drive because “14 points is better than 7.”

The irony of someone using a very half baked analysis to take an intellectual high road (“our system is better/smarter than their ‘meathead’ system because...”) isn’t a good look.

But to answer your questions/respond directly to your comments, I wouldn’t know about gin on an empty stomach. Gin is a gross drink for people who are trying way too hard. And I’d probably be dead if Addazio fell out of the sky on to me, and what’s left of him would probably be a mess, so I guess you’ve got me there. But I’ll continue to make the most out of being able to ID him while we’re both alive, just as I’ll continue to hope that he doesn’t fall out of any planes above me.

 

[nzm136]

That makes more sense. There should be an element of air attack, when you have a dome. An air attack is more dependent on skill positions. I think the big east falling apart from 2002 -2012 may have hurt us in that department. Thank God, we're back in the ACC.

Oline is the most difficult position to learn/prepare for on the field. I've read it takes at least 2 years to make a P5 lineman. Adazzio gets the lowest ACC recruiting classes, but he can teach that(Oline) VERY well. He's not bad at Def, either. He's gotta play meathead. He succeeds because he's focusing on a position that rely's on coaching, above all. Even the NFL has to continue developing top O linemen(google it, some call it a crisis). Shafer grabbed some decent recruits, but as far as I'm concerned, we weren't P5, til Dino took over.

Babers is interesting. The speed allows him to play just a touch above his skill level. Our meathead side needs improvement. Only then, do we go bowling. While I'm hoping for DEF improvements... Adding Cavanaugh to the oline may help. Lynch will still pitch in as he's the OC(with Dino). That still has to be nailed down for Dino's system to be consistent. The "meathead" part. That's what makes Devito pop in 2019... We don't get the skill players we did in the 80's,90',s til we nail this down. Meathead is the essence of football. If you feel differently, you are better suited for soccer. (minus the 18 years of pain, of course. I understand that. )

When Dino closes the "meathead" gap, we succeed. I hate that term. It's a fundamental term, that has been the base of every winning football team... Ever. Dino is modern, but if you think he doesn't get the need for successful "meathead" football... You don't understand football. He's preaching run game , AGAIN, this year. No football coach, in the history of time, ever said it wasn't won in the trenches.

My hope is that we bowl this year... Might get back to 80's 90's recruiting. Adazzio? He doesn't care. He's always going to coach the "meathead" fundamentals, til he gets 4 and 5 star recruits. (unlikely) He'll keep sending kids to the NFL, because he can teach fundamentals. I met him. He's a dick. But he's a really good coach. Babers can do better...

I think that SS’ problem in a nut shell is that he had absolutely atrocious assistant coaches, which, to quote Trump, are “bigly” important at all levels, especially college, especially for a program that isn’t pulling in consistent T5 recruiting classes. Our coordinators couldn’t play call their way out of a paper bag (see McF***), and our player development was noticeably soft, especially when compared to the previous regime (fHCDM was really great at developing players).

Put another way, look at the golden ages of SU FB, and look at all of the big named assistants that we had (or at least the guys who would go on to get big names). Then look at SS’ staff. That contrast right there was his problem.

 

[NJCuse97]

I think that SS’ problem in a nut shell is that he had absolutely atrocious assistant coaches, which, to quote Trump, are “bigly” important at all levels, especially college, especially for a program that isn’t pulling in consistent T5 recruiting classes. Our coordinators couldn’t play call their way out of a paper bag (see McF***), and our player development was noticeably soft, especially when compared to the previous regime (fHCDM was really great at developing players).

This is a huge part. When McD came in, we were all excited about the offensive system he had in his head, but he ran screens with no blocking and benched our last 1,000 yard rusher. None of us understood that, or liked it. We survived because of the line play, but when Perles left, we lost the hope of respectable line play. I hope Cavanaugh is even half of the line staff Marone had. With a good line, we will see enormous improvements. Even in the 90’s I heard O-line lament the play calling in the infamous 1992 Miami game. The line felt they were run blocking well and thought the coaches put too much of that game on Graves’ shoulders.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

That makes more sense. There should be an element of air attack, when you have a dome. An air attack is more dependent on skill positions. I think the big east falling apart from 2002 -2012 may have hurt us in that department. Thank God, we're back in the ACC.

Oline is the most difficult position to learn/prepare for on the field. I've read it takes at least 2 years to make a P5 lineman. Adazzio gets the lowest ACC recruiting classes, but he can teach that(Oline) VERY well. He's not bad at Def, either. He's gotta play meathead. He succeeds because he's focusing on a position that rely's on coaching, above all. Even the NFL has to continue developing top O linemen(google it, some call it a crisis). Shafer grabbed some decent recruits, but as far as I'm concerned, we weren't P5, til Dino took over.

Babers is interesting. The speed allows him to play just a touch above his skill level. Our meathead side needs improvement. Only then, do we go bowling. While I'm hoping for DEF improvements... Adding Cavanaugh to the oline may help. Lynch will still pitch in as he's the OC(with Dino). That still has to be nailed down for Dino's system to be consistent. The "meathead" part. That's what makes Devito pop in 2019... We don't get the skill players we did in the 80's,90',s til we nail this down. Meathead is the essence of football. If you feel differently, you are better suited for soccer. (minus the 18 years of pain, of course. I understand that. )

When Dino closes the "meathead" gap, we succeed. I hate that term. It's a fundamental term, that has been the base of every winning football team... Ever. Dino is modern, but if you think he doesn't get the need for successful "meathead" football... You don't understand football. He's preaching run game , AGAIN, this year. No football coach, in the history of time, ever said it wasn't won in the trenches.

My hope is that we bowl this year... Might get back to 80's 90's recruiting. Adazzio? He doesn't care. He's always going to coach the "meathead" fundamentals, til he gets 4 and 5 star recruits. (unlikely) He'll keep sending kids to the NFL, because he can teach fundamentals. I met him. He's a dick. But he's a really good coach. Babers can do better...

You're conflating meatheadedness, or rather not being meathead minded, with an emphasis on the running game and line play. I'm not sure why. We can all agree that good line play on both sides and running the ball well are positive things.

What separates homo meatheadicus apart is a mentality that is over reliant on the volatility of performance on defense and makes choices that exposes defense to that volatility. This manifests itself as a lack of caring for the ball and caring about scoring points, above all. Punting at midfield because you're gonna "pin 'em back," and "flip the field," is quintessential meathead thinking. The odds are low that will happen. Your odds are better at getting that 4th and 2 at the 40. Also included in the meathead mentality is the lack of urgency to take advantage of the current moment. A perfect example of that was when Babers first played BC. We had a lead, BC had crap offense but mustered a drive and they could have taken the lead with a TD, but they abandoned their chance at more points in favor of a field goal. They lost and never scored after that. That's one example, but it demonstrates the thinking. It's limiting.

Personally I love having Addazio in the conference and as a regional rival because I don't believe they're really going anywhere. I want him to do just well enough to stay so they're forever mediocre.

 

[JrodCuse]

What kinda nerd do you think I am, that I just carry lists around like that?

I thought you were Millhouse burner account

 

[RandomGuy]

For me, "meathead" is more old school. It relies on the old addage, "defense wins championships.". If you are saying it's bad defense? Ok. I'll hold that it's easier to be better on the run, when you have less talent.


What you are describing is a poorly coached team, that probably doesn't have the necessary talent to succeed, No matter what they do. Maybe they win, if they get lucky. That's just bad football.

Take Tony Dungey. In Tampa, he had a good def, and crappy QB play. He relied on the run and defense, and had some success. (Meathead). In Indy, he had great QB play, and mediocre Def. So he threw it all day. He coached to each teams strengths.

You are describing bad coaching, and/or a team that lacks talent, imo. To me, that's not a style of football. You're gonna lose, either way.

Everyone says Addazio is a meathead, so I am associating good line play, decent def, and a heavy run attack to meathead.

 

[Pyle]

You're conflating meatheadedness, or rather not being meathead minded, with an emphasis on the running game and line play. I'm not sure why. We can all agree that good line play on both sides and running the ball well are positive things.

What separates homo meatheadicus apart is a mentality that is over reliant on the volatility of performance on defense and makes choices that exposes defense to that volatility. This manifests itself as a lack of caring for the ball and caring about scoring points, above all. Punting at midfield because you're gonna "pin 'em back," and "flip the field," is quintessential meathead thinking. The odds are low that will happen. Your odds are better at getting that 4th and 2 at the 40. Also included in the meathead mentality is the lack of urgency to take advantage of the current moment. A perfect example of that was when Babers first played BC. We had a lead, BC had crap offense but mustered a drive and they could have taken the lead with a TD, but they abandoned their chance at more points in favor of a field goal. They lost and never scored after that. That's one example, but it demonstrates the thinking. It's limiting.

Personally I love having Addazio in the conference and as a regional rival because I don't believe they're really going anywhere. I want him to do just well enough to stay so they're forever mediocre.

Your odds/stats/whatever are skewed. Yes I get that some stats say it's better to go for it. But what those stats
fail to look at is all of the other circumstances which led to those decisions to go for it. Clemson playing against Richmond? Go for it. Alabama playing Georgia? Maybe not. You go for it more when everything else is already in your favor, TOP, talent levels, score at the time, etc. Another thing those stats don't account for is momentum. You can be marching down the field time after time, get bogged down by a penalty or two, go for it and not get it and the team quits on you. I think we've seen the dark side of go for it, how many points did we give up in last 5 games?

 

[RandomGuy]

Your odds/stats/whatever are skewed. Yes I get that some stats say it's better to go for it. But what those stats
fail to look at is all of the other circumstances which led to those decisions to go for it. Clemson playing against Richmond? Go for it. Alabama playing Georgia? Maybe not. You go for it more when everything else is already in your favor, TOP, talent levels, score at the time, etc. Another thing those stats don't account for is momentum. You can be marching down the field time after time, get bogged down by a penalty or two, go for it and not get it and the team quits on you. I think we've seen the dark side of go for it, how many points did we give up in last 5 games?

I think Belichick went for it on his own 40, in the 3rd Q, in a playoff game against Indy. Manning was scoring every time he touched the ball. Didn't make it. Statistically foolish, but when it's impossible to stop the other team? Who cares. Sometimes you go for it because you suck, too

 

[Pyle]

I think Belichick went for it on his own 40, in the 3rd Q, in a playoff game against Indy. Manning was scoring every time he touched the ball. Didn't make it. Statistically foolish, but when it's impossible to stop the other team? Who cares. Sometimes you go for it because you suck, too

I've heard of this...I think it's called desperation.

 

[Alsacs]

I think Belichick went for it on his own 40, in the 3rd Q, in a playoff game against Indy. Manning was scoring every time he touched the ball. Didn't make it. Statistically foolish, but when it's impossible to stop the other team? Who cares. Sometimes you go for it because you suck, too

It was 4th and 2 NE was up 6 and couldn’t stop Peyton in the 4th Q.
NE was on their own 28 with 2:15 left in the 4th Q and if they got the first down the game was over.
NE gained 1.5 and Indy scored and won by 1 point.

 

[RandomGuy]

It was 4th and 2 NE was up 6 and couldn’t stop Peyton in the 4th Q.
NE was on their own 28 with 2:15 left in the 4th Q and if they got the first down the game was over.
NE gained 1.5 and Indy scored and won by 1 point.

That's it. If they punted, Manning was going to score, anyway, but leave no time on the clock. If they failed, they'd have enough time to get in field goal range. I had no problem with the call. Normally foolish, but situationally (pyles point), there was at least an argument. Context is always important, whether you agree with calls, or not. Same with stats.