Here is what I can PROMISE all the "fire Shafer" people

[Ringostar57]

"In football head coaches are only as good as their assistants" so said Ben circa 1961.

 

[tep624]

Losing a recruiting class is much overrated.
In 2013, when Shafer took over on January 9th, a month before NSD, we lost 5 Marrone recruits. All proved to be busts.

1. Gus Edwards RB (Miami) - buried on the depth chart at #3.
2. Laray Smith RB (Indiana) - switched to CB and transferred to Delaware State to play RB.
3. Zach Allen QB (TCU) - buried on the depth chart at #6 QB. Was tried at WR in the spring.
4. Malik Brown DE/LB (Tennessee) transferred to Bowling Green.
5. Devan Carter LB/RB (Rutgers) moved from RB to LB where he is buried in the depth chart.

On the other hand, Shafer's staff pulled in Brisly Estime and Corey Winfield, both starters.

New staffs have their own contacts and recruits in progress and it is far from certain whether a class will be better or worse off with a change. Also, it is only one class.

I doubt Coyle will pay any attention to this factor - nor should he.

It really matters where the new guy would be coming from. Ano likes to throw Narduzzi's name around - well Narduzzi went from Mich St. (where he spent 7 years) to Pitt, two schools that have overlapping recruiting areas. Pitt recruits Ohio, PA, NY, NJ heavily - so does Mich. St. The three highest profile recruits he brought in at Pitt in the 2015 class after he took over were Anthony McKee, a Ohio LB that he recruited at Mich St. who OV'ed to Mich St., Saleem Brightwell, a NJ LB that he recruited at Mich St., and Jay Stocker, a PA S that we wanted badly but was going to Pitt barring the school exploding. It wasn't like he recruited these kids overnight to there. Those were relationships he built over years.

I think Narduzzi's biggest win was keeping their 2015 class together, so I agree with Ano on that. But I'm not that floored by the additional recruits he added because he walked into a situation where he had birds in the hand.

Keys to really seeing an uptick in recruiting or at a minimum salvaging a class to the positive are where the HC has been previously and name cache'. And on the latter, we're not hiring Jim Harbaugh so we can all forget about that. Syracuse is going to live and die based on relationships, and that's not going to change whether the HC is Shafer or the latest flavor of the month.

 

[anomander]

I don't need to sue you at all. It just goes to show Marrone upset teams while he was SU FB HC and under SS the biggest upsets we have had in 3 years is beating BC in the Dome to get bowl eligible or Maryland on the road. Marrone beat 4 ranked teams in 4 years. We haven't beaten a ranked team since 2012. Just facts.

Wasn't Maryland playing with a LB as starting QB? We got extremely lucky with opponent injuries that season. I believe 5 or 6 opponents were missing their best player.

 

[SUFaninNJ]

I didn't feel like wading through 8 pages, so forgive me if this was already mentioned. This is regarding the comment that the offense is not producing. Last year's offense averaged 17.1 ppg. That was good for 13th in the ACC and 121st in the FBS. This year's offense averages 32.2 ppg. That ranks 7th in the ACC and 53rd in the FBS. It's hard not to see that the offense, though far from perfect, is improved over last year. Even with 6 games still to go, I doubt the offense falls all the way back to last year's numbers.

 

[TheCusian]

I didn't feel like wading through 8 pages, so forgive me if this was already mentioned. This is regarding the comment that the offense is not producing. Last year's offense averaged 17.1 ppg. That was good for 13th in the ACC and 121st in the FBS. This year's offense averages 32.2 ppg. That ranks 7th in the ACC and 53rd in the FBS. It's hard not to see that the offense, though far from perfect, is improved over last year. Even with 6 games still to go, I doubt the offense falls all the way back to last year's numbers.

Goodness don't make Millhouse go back and remove defensive TD and OT scores again

 

[jr4750]

I think it was anomander who said it in an earlier thread. I simply can't believe our best win of the Shafer era is a desperation drive against a 7-6 BC team. Yikes. That does not create a warm and fizzy feeling in me. Especially after these last two weeks, which in essence were must win games for this year and a bowl bid.

I disagree with some that we can't beat Pitt, but I guess Shafer hasn't shown the ability to beat a favored team yet. Thats not good.

 

[Alsacs]

The offensive improvement is the only reason to keep SS as long we win another game. Nobody who is objective can look at 13-24 and say that coach deserves a 4th year especially with a new AD who didn't hire that coach.

SS hasn't shown the ability to lead this program to any signatures wins. If our best 3 wins thru 2.5 years are Minnesota in a bowl game, an average BC on the last play of the game, and a 5th string QB led Maryland on the road that is major red flag.

People love the whole rah-rah #hardnosed BS mantra and can't look at the actual results. I can't take these Coach Mac comparisons either as CFB was a completely different ballgame in that era. Money wasn't the same and TV didn't have every game available you probably only saw half of the games if you didn't go to the games live.

 

[tep624]

The offensive improvement is the only reason to keep SS as long we win another game. Nobody who is objective can look at 13-24 and say that coach deserves a 4th year especially with a new AD who didn't hire that coach.

SS hasn't shown the ability to lead this program to any signatures wins. If our best 3 wins thru 2.5 years are Minnesota in a bowl game, an average BC on the last play of the game, and a 5th string QB led Maryland on the road that is major red flag.

People love the whole rah-rah #hardnosed BS mantra and can't look at the actual results. I can't take these Coach Mac comparisons either as CFB was a completely different ballgame in that era. Money wasn't the same and TV didn't have every game available you probably only saw half of the games if you didn't go to the games live.

Not going for 2 in the second overtime wasn't very hard nosed. I don't put a lot of stock into that stuff. Actions speak louder than words.

 

[Crusty]

Not going for 2 in the second overtime wasn't very hard nosed. I don't put a lot of stock into that stuff. Actions speak louder than words.

Shafer said he thought the D could hold them. Why? They were gassed and had not stopped them the whole second half. That is simply inexperience - a defensive minded coach with a knee-jerk reaction. Perhaps, next time he will do better.

 

[elimunelson]

The offensive improvement is the only reason to keep SS as long we win another game. Nobody who is objective can look at 13-24 and say that coach deserves a 4th year especially with a new AD who didn't hire that coach.

SS hasn't shown the ability to lead this program to any signatures wins. If our best 3 wins thru 2.5 years are Minnesota in a bowl game, an average BC on the last play of the game, and a 5th string QB led Maryland on the road that is major red flag.

People love the whole rah-rah #hardnosed BS mantra and can't look at the actual results. I can't take these Coach Mac comparisons either as CFB was a completely different ballgame in that era. Money wasn't the same and TV didn't have every game available you probably only saw half of the games if you didn't go to the games live.

the body of work coming off being in the program as the D-Coordinator is putrid. Not sure why everyone is sooo enthused with it.

I'm willing to give him a chance if they figure out a way to scratch another 3 wins this season. If not, why delay the inevitable? Starting over is really hard and I get why people don't want to. But this is starting over after 2009 IMO when Marrone took over. Shafer was hired specifically for stability. Guy was not qualified to be the HC otherwise.

I'm really hoping i look back at these messages and laugh b/c i didn't realize that Shafer could turn it around. That will make me very happy b/c i'd rather be wrong in this instance but if we get smashed this weekend, the work has to start on the transition of this program to a new voice

 

[Millhouse]

UCLA fired a lot of coaches until they finally got it right.

I am not into blaming assistants anymore, if you cant win games, HC needs to go. Year 3 assistants should be in place that coach wants

Shafer took over a 8-5 program that lost quite a bit of talent, he backed that up with an up and down 7-6 season. Shafer has no big wins, HUGE losses and won 3 games last year and will most likely win between 3-5 this year. If that resume isn't at least worth discussing a possible replacement, we should just pack up and go home.

I don't care either way anymore, I really like Shafer but I like winning football games more. I prefer he stays and we win games but he has 6 games left this year to get it going. Shafer will be just fine but I think the decision will make itself. 5 wins I think he is fine, 3 wins is a very tough sell. 4 wins? Who knows

I don't think coaches get as much time as they use to. Like I said, I can see cases on both sides. I think he wins 5 games and is safe, but coaches know the game.

UCLA has 463 ypg with the offense we had last year and a hotshot freshman who is surprisingly nowhere near as good as Dungey this year. They run the ball way better than we do.

they weren't a bad team to steal from

 

[qdawgg]

Not going for 2 in the second overtime wasn't very hard nosed. I don't put a lot of stock into that stuff. Actions speak louder than words.

Or last year, punting with a few minutes left in the game on the opponents 40 yard line or so, down 10 or 14 I think. I forget the game but I'm sure someone remembers, we were in the dome, I was one of the only fans left in my section.

After that, the whole "hardnosed" and "lock them in the dome" stuff doesn't mean crap to me. I actually find it annoying now.

 

[CaliCuse]

The EXACT same position we are in right now in 3 years. Probably worse- and I don't care if we hire Bill Belichek. Brand new recruiting grounds which will take time to infiltrate- brand new systems to teach with painful growing pains-a depleted recruiting class and- very likely- major transfers from current team.
Other than that we should be just fine.

 

[Finwad32]

UCLA has 463 ypg with the offense we had last year and a hotshot freshman who is surprisingly nowhere near as good as Dungey this year. They run the ball way better than we do.

they weren't a bad team to steal from

The problem was he only stole a piece here and a piece there. That system incorporated about 4 different offensive philosophies. Which can work fine, if utilized correctly.

 

[KaiserUEO]

Or last year, punting with a few minutes left in the game on the opponents 40 yard line or so, down 10 or 14 I think. I forget the game but I'm sure someone remembers, we were in the dome, I was one of the only fans left in my section.

After that, the whole "hardnosed" and "lock them in the dome" stuff doesn't mean crap to me. I actually find it annoying now.

it was annoying and a red-flag on Day 1.

 

[qdawgg]

I think it was anomander who said it in an earlier thread. I simply can't believe our best win of the Shafer era is a desperation drive against a 7-6 BC team. Yikes. That does not create a warm and fizzy feeling in me. Especially after these last two weeks, which in essence were must win games for this year and a bowl bid.

I disagree with some that we can't beat Pitt, but I guess Shafer hasn't shown the ability to beat a favored team yet. Thats not good.

I agree and feel the same way about everything you wrote except the Pitt part. Because he hasn't shown the ability to beat favored teams.

I honestly didn't think Marrone was the answer long-term but he kept many games close with inferior talent. We had many games (PSU/USC come to mind) that were similar to the LSU game this year. Close but a mistake here and there. But that was the norm with Marrone games, we were always in most of the games. The fact Shafer hasn't had even one impressive win and we only beat teams that are in the bottom half of CFB rankings, I think that is a HUGE issue.

 

[qdawgg]

I don't need to as I remember it pretty clearly. Marrone beat 1 ranked team every year. 2009-Rutgers, 2010-West Virginia, 2011-West Virginia, 2012-Louisville

While Missouri didn't end up with a great record at the end of the season, at the start of the season we went into SEC territory and beat Missouri in a pretty exciting game. Big win at the time.

 

[TheCusian]

While Missouri didn't end up with a great record at the end of the season, at the start of the season we went into SEC territory and beat Missouri in a pretty exciting game. Big win at the time.

That was in the back half of the 2012 season, but it was a huge win on the road vs superior talent.

 

[Crusty]

That was in the back half of the 2012 season, but it was a huge win on the road vs superior talent.

Not to be a wet blanket, but their best defensive player (Michael Sam) was injured and did not play.

 

[K Otto XLIV]

The offensive improvement is the only reason to keep SS as long we win another game. Nobody who is objective can look at 13-24 and say that coach deserves a 4th year especially with a new AD who didn't hire that coach.

SS hasn't shown the ability to lead this program to any signatures wins. If our best 3 wins thru 2.5 years are Minnesota in a bowl game, an average BC on the last play of the game, and a 5th string QB led Maryland on the road that is major red flag.

People love the whole rah-rah #hardnosed BS mantra and can't look at the actual results. I can't take these Coach Mac comparisons either as CFB was a completely different ballgame in that era. Money wasn't the same and TV didn't have every game available you probably only saw half of the games if you didn't go to the games live.

I think you are giving too much credit to the O. We really aren't that different on O vs the 18 McDonald games. The vast improvement is because the last 6 games of 2014 were arguably the worst O in the history of Cuse football. Lester shouldn't get credit for turning the O around when he played a part in creating a stretch of O worse than Pariani. Also how much of this year's O "improvement" is Dungey being Dungey vs the actual system? If he creates something from nothing does the scheme get credit?

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Marrone had some head scratching losses but at least there were moments every year where you felt good about the program with some big wins. 2009- Northwestern,Rutgers 2010 lots of nice road wins, horrible at home though. 2011 WVY before the landslide 2012- whole 2nd half of season

What are Shafer's moments? BC and Minny? WOW just the stuff that dreams are made of.

The more I think about it- this guy needs to go. I'm done... he stinks!!!!! ( barring 5 wins)

 

[Scooch]

An additional thought...

I think most on this board like Shafer and would prefer that he have success at SU. There doesn't seem to be a big faction of people who are out for blood and want the guy gone yesterday. But if, unfortunately, this season spirals into the abyss... or perhaps he gets us to 4-5 wins and coaches next year, but that becomes another 4-5 win season.. and Coyle decides a change needs to be made... I don't think people need to be so afraid.

I'm looking at the top 25 right now and I see Utah, Baylor, TCU, Memphis, Toledo, Houston, Temple, Duke and Pitt. Now some of those schools are in better recruiting areas than SU, but none of them are factories and all of them have some significant program limitation or challenge. What it tells me is that with the right financial commitment and the right coaching staff it's entirely possible to build a good program.

Sports is judged in a pretty binary way. There are always mitigating factors but ultimately you gotta win. I hope Shafer is the guy that can win. But if he doesn't, this year or next, then we move on and hope to find the guy that can make us a Utah, or Memphis, or Toledo, or Temple, or Pitt.

I don't think that's unreasonable.

And I don't think we need to be so damn terrified of it.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Not to be a wet blanket, but their best defensive player (Michael Sam) was injured and did not play.

Who cares? we beat an SEC team on the road, that was a top 25 throughout that year. Now, people would be playing grab ass and high fiving off their bunk beds if we lost by 10 to a team like this. OH BUT THE YOUTH!!!! Just replace Adam everything will be fine!!! heard the same for GROB in year 3 to get 4

GROB would have recruited just as well as Shafer in the ACC with the facilities we have now.

 

[Alsacs]

I think you are giving too much credit to the O. We really aren't that different on O vs the 18 McDonald games. The vast improvement is because the last 6 games of 2014 were arguably the worst O in the history of Cuse football. Lester shouldn't get credit for turning the O around when he played a part in creating a stretch of O worse than Pariani. Also how much of this year's O "improvement" is Dungey being Dungey vs the actual system? If he creates something from nothing does the scheme get credit?

I wanted the coaching staff gone last year. I haven't exactly been fans. I am willingly to concede this offense has exceeded my expectations and your right that the 2nd half of last year factors into that. However we have scored 24 points every game and that is why I give credit.
We didn't average 24 ppg under McDonald. You may be right it may be the QB but I gotta give the coaches credit for getting the kid. I would make the move to a new staff I thought when we hired SS it was the wrong decision.

 

[Alsacs]

http://syracusefan.com/threads/su-vs-pitt-gameday-thread.83269/

I went back and looked at last year's Pitt game thread. I really wish Chip got more credit for his alltime classic line that got buried in a terrible game thread from last year.