Honest question regarding Syracuse Athletics

[Crusty]

Ok, who would you like to see the Cuse pursue ….that we could afford?

First, lets's agree on what we need to pay. The mid-point in the ACC is $2.275 million and the average is $2.45 million. That's $900,000 to over $1000,000 increase for starters just to be average. Bear in mind that coaches like Steve Addazio and David Cutcliffe are likely to get bumps and contract extensions soon as well..

1. Jimbo Fisher. FSU $4,000,000
2. Bobby Petrino, Louisville $3,500,000
3. Dabo Sweeney, - Clemson $3,300,000
4. Paul Johnson, GT $2,700,000
5. Frank Beamer, VPI $2,600,000
6. Mike London, UVA $2,400,000
7. Al Golden, Miami $2,300,000
8. Dave Clawson, Wake Forest $2,250,000
9. David Cutcliffe, Duke $2,250,000
10. Larry Fedora, UNC $2,000,000
11. Dave Doeren, NCS $2,000,000
12. Paul Chryst, Pitt $1,800,000
13. Steve Addazio, BC $1,750,000
14. Scott Shafer, SU $1,400,000

I like all of these as candidates. There are many others out there. Imagine how many OC's with real experience there are that would probably love to coach in the Dome.
Bobby Wilder at ODU makes $500,000
Ruffin McNeill at EDu makes $1,250,000
June Jones when at SMU was making $2,100,000
George O'Leary at UCF makes $2,000,000
David Bailiff at Rice makes $700,000
Ken Niumatalolo at Navy makes $1,600,000
Doc Holiday at Marshall makes $650,000

 

[Crusty]

Has there been more recent talk about this stadium? because I seem to be seeing this a lot more recently but I haven't seen anything since it last came up and was shot down. Then syvurd came out and said they would look into it (even with no more NYS money) and I haven't heard anything since. And I truly believe Buffalo will get that money for a new stadium before Syracuse will. We had our chance and we passed, or should I say the mayor of syracuse passed.

That was the last word. I would bet a lot that the money is there for the taking under certain circumstances.

 

[Crusty]

You are assuming that spending the extra money guarantees success. Or are all of the universities spending more $$$ on coaches and recruiting expenses than us magically successful? Keep in mind, we are still a program that has been to three bowl games in the last 5 years and won all three. The glory days of the late 80s and the 90s are distant memories for all but the die-hard fans like us.

Cheers,
Neil

All we have to do is get into the middle of the pack in the ACC, we don;t have to return to the "glory days". Bowl games - that is behind us- the reality is Marrone is gone and we are 10-15 since he left. What is guaranteed is that this trend will bring in far less revenue that the few million it would cost to prevent it. Your position is what - since there are no guarantees, do nothing?

 

[oldpinepoint]

That was the last word. I would bet a lot that the money is there for the taking under certain circumstances.

i agree did they say the state will have a 4.5 billion dollar surplus next year or something.

 

[orange79]

And I disagree whole heartedly, when was the last time a P5 athletic director was fired for poor overall athletic performance? AD's are only fired for poor revenue athletic performance, mostly their inability to instill a winning football program.

You can disagree as much as you want. A University president will look at all sports in the Athletic Department, not just the revenue producing ones. Will they all carry the same weight in his/her eyes? Who knows? We'll have to wait and see. And if you believe your last statement, I don't know what to tell you. AD's are fired for things other than how the football team performs.

 

[Dr. Bill]

First, lets's agree on what we need to pay. The mid-point in the ACC is $2.275 million and the average is $2.45 million. That's $900,000 to over $1000,000 increase for starters just to be average. Bear in mind that coaches like Steve Addazio and David Cutcliffe are likely to get bumps and contract extensions soon as well..

1. Jimbo Fisher. FSU $4,000,000
2. Bobby Petrino, Louisville $3,500,000
3. Dabo Sweeney, - Clemson $3,300,000
4. Paul Johnson, GT $2,700,000
5. Frank Beamer, VPI $2,600,000
6. Mike London, UVA $2,400,000
7. Al Golden, Miami $2,300,000
8. Dave Clawson, Wake Forest $2,250,000
9. David Cutcliffe, Duke $2,250,000
10. Larry Fedora, UNC $2,000,000
11. Dave Doeren, NCS $2,000,000
12. Paul Chryst, Pitt $1,800,000
13. Steve Addazio, BC $1,750,000
14. Scott Shafer, SU $1,400,000

I like all of these as candidates. There are many others out there. Imagine how many OC's with real experience there are that would probably love to coach in the Dome.
Bobby Wilder at ODU makes $500,000
Ruffin McNeill at EDu makes $1,250,000
June Jones when at SMU was making $2,100,000
George O'Leary at UCF makes $2,000,000
David Bailiff at Rice makes $700,000
Ken Niumatalolo at Navy makes $1,600,000
Doc Holiday at Marshall makes $650,000

If we bump up the head coach's salary by one million, what about the staff? At least another million dollars there for a top notch staff. Money talks, If Syracuse is really serious about a better program, we will know, if they make the investment in the coaching staff.

 

[orange79]

In any revenue dependent operation you need to make sure you are taking care of the stuff that brings in the cash first. If you aren't doing that you can do plenty of other things right but it won't matter.

In any organization that depends on brand value, you need to make sure you protect and enhance the value of that brand. Since most people care about football and basketball, an inordinate amount of time, attention, and resources should necessarily flow in that direction. And if you mess up football you are harming the brand.

I'd call that failure.

Sorry, but that is not always true. It depends on what direction you are given. If TGD was given the direction of improving our standing in the Sears Trophy standings, he has most definitely not harmed the brand.

 

[CU44SE]

You can disagree as much as you want. A University president will look at all sports in the Athletic Department, not just the revenue producing ones. Will they all carry the same weight in his/her eyes? Who knows? We'll have to wait and see. And if you believe your last statement, I don't know what to tell you. AD's are fired for things other than how the football team performs.

In all honesty, can you please point out the last AD that was fired for poor overall athletic performance in the non revenue sports and not for poor athletic success in the two big revenue sports? Obviously excluding scandals and the such.

 

[cuseinchina]

Sorry, but that is not always true. It depends on what direction you are given. If TGD was given the direction of improving our standing in the Sears Trophy standings, he has most definitely not harmed the brand.

Brand value is not dependent on what instructions you are given, it is dependent on the fan base / alumni. I'm pretty sure most alumni care an awful lot more about basketball and football than they do about women's soccer. It's great that the non revenue sports are doing well, and I think the environment around athletics in general is really pretty special at Syracuse. But letting football flounder most definitely a. hurts the bottom line and b. harms the value of the brand. there is little doubt about that. And at the end of the day as an administrator at a D-1 school who's brand is very much intertwined with revenue sport athletics, protecting those things is sort of a given.

 

[orange79]

Brand value is not dependent on what instructions you are given, it is dependent on the fan base / alumni. I'm pretty sure most alumni care an awful lot more about basketball and football than they do about women's soccer. It's great that the non revenue sports are doing well, and I think the environment around athletics in general is really pretty special at Syracuse. But letting football flounder most definitely a. hurts the bottom line and b. harms the value of the brand. there is little doubt about that. And at the end of the day as an administrator at a D-1 school who's brand is very much intertwined with revenue sport athletics, protecting those things is sort of a given.

Where did I say football didn't matter, or hurt the bottom line, or didn't harm the value of the brand?

 

[orange79]

In all honesty, can you please point out the last AD that was fired for poor overall athletic performance in the non revenue sports and not for poor athletic success in the two big revenue sports? Obviously excluding scandals and the such.

I wasn't excluding scandals and such. You made a definitive statement that "AD's are only fired for poor revenue athletic performance". I was referring to the fact that AD's are only fired for poor revenue athletic performance is not the only reason AD's are fired.

 

[cuseinchina]

Where did I say football didn't matter, or hurt the bottom line, or didn't harm the value of the brand?

You were (as I understood) conflating brand value with the AD's compensation structure. Just because the two are not properly aligned does not mean that the AD should not be held accountable for what is I think implicitly his most important obligation to the university. Maybe I am misunderstanding your point.

 

[CU44SE]

I wasn't excluding scandals and such. You made a definitive statement that "AD's are only fired for poor revenue athletic performance". I was referring to the fact that AD's are only fired for poor revenue athletic performance is not the only reason AD's are fired.

You knew exactly what I meant, a P5 AD has never been fired because of their non revenue sport failures. P5 AD's are only fired for scandals, or revenue sport failures.

 

[omniorange]

All we have to do is get into the middle of the pack in the ACC, we don;t have to return to the "glory days". Bowl games - that is behind us- the reality is Marrone is gone and we are 10-15 since he left. What is guaranteed is that this trend will bring in far less revenue that the few million it would cost to prevent it. Your position is what - since there are no guarantees, do nothing?

But weren't we middle of the pack in the ACC just last year? We finished tied for third in our division (the tougher division with 2 sure losses) and were tied for 7th place overall. Now, as a football fan, I'm not happy about that myself, but again, if one looks at the OPE site, we are third again in the ACC in terms of revenue - behind only FSU and Louisville.

Not sure the administrators have the sense of urgency on this topic that we do as fans.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[SUbear]

I understand the frustration, truly I do. I've mostly been avoiding this board because this season brought to the forefront my mostly unspoken concerns with the Shafer hire at the outset, mainly that the man is simply not a P5 head coach.

Still, having said that, unless Gross has a more compelling reasonably priced replacement fall into our laps, Shafer is here for at least one more year.

As for your thesis overall, it begins with a faulty premise. Yes, overall, football is the lifeblood for most college athletics programs. But as with everything, there are exceptions. Like Kansas, Kentucky, and Duke, our basketball program generates slightly more net revenue than football, according to the OPE athletics site.

Now it can be argued that basketball is maxed out and there is the potential for football to generate more than they currently are here and at each of those other institutions. This would be true, but to get that level, then net revenues for football would have to take a major dip first by increasing expenses. And under Syverud (who seems more concerned about financial management) how likely is that?

Gross may indeed be fired, but if he is, it will have little to do with this football hire, although if they want to get rid of him, it could be the "given" reason.

Cheers,
Neil

Football revenue has fallen off the cliff since DG appt. of Gerg, therefore hard to use that statistic as any basis to support any discussion of greater revenue producing sport. Pre that disastrous appt. football was the equal or slightly greater revenue producer.

 

[orange79]

You knew exactly what I meant, a P5 AD has never been fired because of their non revenue sport failures. P5 AD's are only fired for scandals, or revenue sport failures.

I did not know what you meant. You made a blanket statement, in plain English, which I responded to. I can't hear you, remember? If I were you, I'd tone down the hyperbole and absolute statements.

 

[omniorange]

Football revenue has fallen off the cliff since DG appt. of Gerg, therefore hard to use that statistic as any basis to support any discussion of greater revenue producing sport. Pre that disastrous appt. football was the equal or slightly greater revenue producer.

Do you have a link to this information?

Cheers,
Neil

 

[CU44SE]

I did not know what you meant. You made a blanket statement, in plain English, which I responded to. I can't hear you, remember? If I were you, I'd tone down the hyperbole and absolute statements.

It kind of has credence of an absolute statement if it has never happened before, that is a P5 athletic director has never been fired because of his non revenue sports failure.

 

[SUbear]

But weren't we middle of the pack in the ACC just last year? We finished tied for third in our division (the tougher division with 2 sure losses) and were tied for 7th place overall. Now, as a football fan, I'm not happy about that myself, but again, if one looks at the OPE site, we are third again in the ACC in terms of revenue - behind only FSU and Louisville.

Not sure the administrators have the sense of urgency on this topic that we do as fans.

Cheers,
Neil

And there lies the ongoing crux of the problem for the football program, the administration. Syracuse has gone through repeated cycles of good and bad football mostly because the admins repeatedly make the same mistakes.
Invest in program because it is no longer making money, program recovers becomes a cash generator, syphon money and neglect program, program deteriorates and fans no longer come, income falls, admins try to invest in program to rebuild. Rinse repeat.
It is not as easy to rebuild as it once was so this cyclable behavior is a recipe for failure.

 

[SUbear]

Do you have a link to this information?

Cheers,
Neil

All you have to do is look at pre and post attendance at games, but the information is out there I have no link.

 

[Millhouse]

I would not count on that. As I said, this is an Athletic Department. Not a Football Only Department.

Let's put a weight on each sport by attendance. That's how much each matters

 

[Stevenson]

Only football and basketball matter. They make up the dog. Everything else makes up the tail.

 

[orange79]

Let's put a weight on each sport by attendance. That's how much each matters

Football is high. Where did I say it wasn't? But it's not 100%.

 

[omniorange]

All you have to do is look at pre and post attendance at games, but the information is out there I have no link.

Attendance alone is not the sole indicator of revenue generation, particularly when it comes to a relatively small venue like the Dome. An increase in terms of ticket prices and/or donations required for preferred seating can offset a drop in overall attendance.

Unfortunately I couldn't find the football only revenue on the internet but I did find the overall total revenue reported to the ODE site for the following years:

03-04 - $40,731,865
04-05 - $42,283,724
06-07 - $43,732,382 (2nd year of GRob)
08-09 - $52,050,104 (last year of GRob)
11-12 - $73,287,687
12-13 - $76,366,113 (last year in Big East)
13-14 - $87,647,822 (1st year in ACC)

Not sure what this says, I just thought it might be interesting to add to the discussion.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[HtownOrange]

Aside from the hiring of GRob and the rush hiring of HCSS, TDG has done very much good for Syracuse football. IPF, Manley conversion (pre-IPF), avoided the AAC while getting Syracuse into the ACC, kept revenue up and kept scheduling good teams (something Rutgers can only dream of); that said, the verdict is still out on HCSS; let's be honest, a serious rash of injuries, starting QB out for season, cupboard left bare after Marrone left (let's not forget that Marrone counts as a TGD success). In short, TGD has been a success in football. If HCSS proves up or if the next hire is a solid to dynamite hire, this discussion never occurs.

Just an opinion.