How has JB done with MCW and Xmas?

[OttoMets]

How do we know he is actually wrong? Because you feel he is wrong?

Yeah, we don't know he's wrong. But the argument that we're certain he's not wrong because he knows more basketball or is in the Hall of Fame is wrong.

 

[orangecuse]

So he's never wrong? Because he knows more about basketball than anyone here, it's not possible for Boeheim to be wrong about something.

(It goes without saying that I don't like this line of reasoning very well.)

Of course not, but it would be a fair assessment to conclude that he knows his team better than anyone of us. That's not really debatable. Maybe it's not a matter of being wrong or right, but rather simply his own belief system based on his own relative experiences.

 

[tbonezone]

Except if/when said frosh makes a mistake or a series of mistakes that coasues those losses, you and half this board will be say: "What is he playing them for!" And then thers is the seeding where a couple or 3 or 4 more loses drops the seeding from a #1 to a #3 or 4 to make it a tougher road. Then it may be a wash on if the higher seed is better or having 10 playable guys.

you know i could really care less about where we're seeded in the ncaat. we're locked in and that's all that really matters. maybe now is the time to tinker around a bit with these young guys and try to get a little better and a little deeper. to win the whole thing you're gonna have to play great basketball against some very good teams every night.
we all remember richmond and vermont.

 

[EastCoast2]

So he's never wrong? Because he knows more about basketball than anyone here, it's not possible for Boeheim to be wrong about something.

(It goes without saying that I don't like this line of reasoning very well.)

Nowhere did I imply JB is never wrong. The main point of my post was questioning why so many posters here insist MCW should be getting upwards of 15 mpg. I said JB knows a lot more about MCW's skill than we do. If MCW = the three other guards in practice, MCW sits by default, due to being a freshman.

 

[tbonezone]

"...MCW sits by default, due to being a freshman."


now there's a great recruiting pitch!

 

[OttoMets]

Nowhere did I imply JB is never wrong. The main point of my post was questioning why so many posters here insist MCW should be getting upwards of 15 mpg. I said JB knows a lot more about MCW's skill than we do. If MCW = the three other guards in practice, MCW sits by default, due to being a freshman.

Boeheim does know more about his players than we do. I'm inclined to agree with you about Carter-Williams (though I wouldn't have minded seeing him in the game last night, since both shooting guards weren't contributing much of anything on offense).

I think he's so far off on Christmas in particular (and have been saying that since the preseason NIT) and with the short second-half bench in general. With Joseph giving no effort on defense during the USF run and throwing up floaters from a low release point, he should've been on the bench. At least Southerland competes on defense (he broke up an alley oop) and knows to rotate back in transition.

Of course there's no way to know if I'm right and he's wrong. He got the win.

 

[slidingdown]

When the 2nd and 3rd guards are stinking up the joint or need the little blue pill, that fourth guard is looking pretty good.

Wait...are you suggesting we should be giving our players viagra before games? Because I have to disagree. Have you ever tried running with an erection? Not an enhancement, my friend. Plus the "touch fouls" would get out of control. JMHO.

 

[EastCoast2]

Boeheim does know more about his players than we do. I'm inclined to agree with you about Carter-Williams (though I wouldn't have minded seeing him in the game last night, since both shooting guards weren't contributing much of anything on offense).

I think he's so far off on Christmas in particular (and have been saying that since the preseason NIT) and with the short second-half bench in general. With Joseph giving no effort on defense during the USF run and throwing up floaters from a low release point, he should've been on the bench. At least Southerland competes on defense (he broke up an alley oop) and knows to rotate back in transition.

Of course there's no way to know if I'm right and he's wrong. He got the win.

I definitely agree with you, althought not sure to what extent, on Christmas. It's very confusing as to why he plays 60 seconds then sits the rest of the game. Fact is, over a possible 6 game tournament stretch, we most likely will need some of his 5 fouls. He's a good rebounder. I wish JB would throw him in there, even if for 2 minutes in the middle of the half, and see what he can do against players not named CJ or Fab.

 

[OttoMets]

I definitely agree with you, althought not sure to what extent, on Christmas. It's very confusing as to why he plays 60 seconds then sits the rest of the game. Fact is, over a possible 6 game tournament stretch, we most likely will need some of his 5 fouls. He's a good rebounder. I wish JB would throw him in there, even if for 2 minutes in the middle of the half, and see what he can do against players not named CJ or Fab.

Not only is Christmas an ok rebounder, but - while he doesn't have the same tenacity as CJ - he's physically capable of getting to rebounds that CJ can't. He's also got good post moves, good hands, and a nice touch off the glass. We saw against Cincinnati that he can play well; Boeheim's fond of pulling him after a mistake (or, in some cases, after a Joseph mistake), but all too often we see Christmas get pulled only to have CJ come in and do the exact same thing.

 

[EastCoast2]

Not only is Christmas an ok rebounder, but - while he doesn't have the same tenacity as CJ - he's physically capable of getting to rebounds that CJ can't. He's also got good post moves, good hands, and a nice touch off the glass. We saw against Cincinnati that he can play well; Boeheim's fond of pulling him after a mistake (or, in some cases, after a Joseph mistake), but all too often we see Christmas get pulled only to have CJ come in and do the exact same thing.

FWIW I think Christmas will be a monster next year

 

[Ghost]

same argument different year. MCW doesnt play so he's not ready...but then its construed as he doesnt play because he isnt ready. self fulfilling prophecy. and i dont understand what seniority has to do with it. freshman play in this era of bball..they play all over the place. the way triche and waiters have been playing, I dont see how giving the kid a look see is sacrilege. in fact, im certain today i saw him about to check in at the scorers table and then he mysteriously disappeared.

Bingo. We've been developing BT for 3+ years now and everyone is perfectly happy to go along with it because he's going to explode once he realizes how good he is or something like that. Well, we really haven't had viable options to play over him I guess so maybe "develop" is the wrong word, but my point is more that people always argue on his behalf based not on stats, but this unexplainable feeling that he's holding back his awesomeness. He is what he is.

I'm perfecntly fine with BT, love the kid, have no gripes about his PT (and think he could have played more of late), but I mean if 95% of the board wants BT to play more based upon this lightbulb that's going to go off in this kid's head, not sure why you wouldn't at least think it may have been worthwhile to get MCW some run.

I don't know, again, my bigger issue would be not really understanding why Rak doesn't get more minutes over Baye tbh, but I don't think the MCW people are insane. It probably comes off as a shot against BT, but it isn't meant to be btw.

Glad we don't have "Dislikes" on the forum.

 

[OttoMets]

FWIW I think Christmas will be a monster next year

Same. If - and I don't know how big an if that is - his confidence isn't shot and he's still a Syracuse player.

He's got the skills to be our best four since Wallace.

 

[SWC75]

I was never coached that way in any sport. The goal of the regular season is to win the regular season. The goal of the post season is to win the post season. There is no give-and-take. IMO, anything else is a losers mentality.

Besides, getting a #1 seed makes the early games that much easier.

 

[tbonezone]

both frosh are top 50 recruits. now you can perhaps make the argument they're not ready to start here (tho for some reason one already does) but please don't try to tell me they're not ready contribute some minutes at this level .

 

[orangehomer]

His name is DaShonte Riley and I really have to disagree with you. Of course players have an opportunity and even an obligation to improve in practice but they must also be able to apply what they've learned and gain the experience in real games. How exactly was the AO/Riley issue "debunked upon analysis"? Riley played about 125 total minutes (just over 3 full games) PRIOR to the AO injury and only 8 combined minutes in the previous 5 games. He was then pushed to nearly 30 minutes combined in the 2 games following the injury. It doesn't take a genius to see that he was not given a fair opportunity to succeed and the entire team suffered as a result. I recognize that you have to prove yourself in practice to earn minutes but practicing against the same 5 guys day after day is not the same as battling with a team that wants to beat you, in front of thousands of loud fans.

By not affording real minutes to MCW and Christmas, Boeheim is limiting this team. Both could make quality contributions, especially MCW. Each was showing progress, improvement and capability of making an impact when given the opportunity. Christmas looked decent in Melo's absence and was really quite good in the Cincinnati game. MCW was fantastic against St. Johns and may be the only player on the team, other than Waiters, that consistently plays with intensity and determination.

The debate and "what ifs" regarding the 2010 team and the AO injury will go on forever. The point is, this team is at its best when ALL its parts are working together and the goal is to avoid a repeat of 2010 and reach the Final Four. Christmas and MCW can help make that happen.

i'll ask the same question now as i asked then. what is the magic number of minutes? 200? 300? if he stunk after 125 minutes why would he suddenly be good after 500? and on top of that, what do you tell AO and rick? "hey arinze, we know riley can't guard a chair, and that this is your 5th year in the program, and you are only playing about 23 minutes per game, but we really need you to sacrifice some more court time in your senior year so that we can play riley in case you get hurt."

 

[EastCoast2]

"...MCW sits by default, due to being a freshman."


now there's a great recruiting pitch!

I think you misunderstood my statement. When is the last time JB used 4 guards?

06-07 Wright, Devendorf, Rautins
07-08 Flynn, Jardine, Harris?? (Rautins missed entire season, Devendorf missed 2/3 season, Wright quit)
08-09 Flynn, Devendorf, Rautins
09-10 Triche, Rautins, Jardine
10-11 Triche, Jardine, Waiters
11-12 Triche, Jardine, Waiters

When I say MCW sits by default, this is what I mean. IF MCW is equivalent, right now, to all 3 guards, he will sit because he is a freshman and thus does not have the experience of playing in big games, BET, or NCAAT. These situations favor players with experience in these situations.

 

[tbonezone]

i get your drift but would you rather run thru the BET with your guards playing 37 minutes a night or 29?

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

Watching Triche out there on the court, MCW has to just shake his head, not getting any minutes. Its laughable.

 

[bevosu]

JB is human. I've yet to meet or hear about a perfect human being. Closest I've come to personally knowing one was a girlfriend I had for seven years, and she dumped me. A testament to her good judgement.

All coaches have flaws. The guy is a great coach. Hard to argue with the stats, but if there's one criticism that I have of JB it's his use of his bench. Over the years I've often thought that he could have and should have used certain players more than he did...and some players less.

Statistically I can't argue that it costs us any games, but I do think it has hindered the development of some of our players.

I also think that knee jerk reactions to any and all criticisms of JB as a coach are usually pretty silly. I think we all know what the guy has accomplished and what we say is just internet board nit picking...but that's what these boards are all about.

You get the mantonios and the BlueCurtins. Livens things up a bit. I like a variety of opinions.

 

[cap2nine]

i'll ask the same question now as i asked then. what is the magic number of minutes? 200? 300? if he stunk after 125 minutes why would he suddenly be good after 500? and on top of that, what do you tell AO and rick? "hey arinze, we know riley can't guard a chair, and that this is your 5th year in the program, and you are only playing about 23 minutes per game, but we really need you to sacrifice some more court time in your senior year so that we can play riley in case you get hurt."

There is no magic number as I'm sure you already know. The key is to make sure your backup has a clear understanding of and feel for real game situations and enough experience and confidence to come in when needed. Yes, this is (or should be) done specifically as preparation against injuries, foul trouble, suspension, etc. No, you don't ask AO (or any player for that matter) if its ok that he take a small cut in minutes from time to time to help develop his backup, you tell him.

Obviously when the game is on the line you have your best players on the floor. But there was lots of opportunity in 2010 as well as throughout this season to provide valuable experience for the 2nd line guys.

Ask AO if he would have sacrificed a little more time throughout the 2010 campaign in favor of a deeper run in the tournament and a possible return to the lineup.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

JB is human. I've yet to meet or hear about a perfect human being. Closest I've come to personally knowing one was a girlfriend I had for seven years, and she dumped me. A testament to her good judgement.

All coaches have flaws. The guy is a great coach. Hard to argue with the stats, but if there's one criticism that I have of JB it's his use of his bench. Over the years I've often thought that he could have and should have used certain players more than he did...and some players less.

Statistically I can't argue that it costs us any games, but I do think it has hindered the development of some of our players.

I also think that knee jerk reactions to any and all criticisms of JB as a coach are usually pretty silly. I think we all know what the guy has accomplished and what we say is just internet board nit picking...but that's what these boards are all about.

You get the mantonios and the BlueCurtins. Livens things up a bit. I like a variety of opinions.

Let me see if I've got this right. You think JB is not perfect because he disagrees with your hunch of how to develop some players.

No stinkin' facts or statistics are needed. Beautiful.

Well, I think knee jerk criticisms of the coach can be pretty silly. Especially in the midst of a 28-1 season. And no, I don't think these boards are about taking unsubstatiated potshots at JB.

I think vague internet nit picking is the worst. You can't possibly think that by not playing MCW, JB cost us the USF game, can you? So, are you thinking JB may have cost us some future game now by not playing MCW last night? In your hunch state of developing players do you minus out games that your use of the player may have cost SU (losing at LVille, maybe lose last night)? Somehow I doubt it.

Of course you are going to like the opinions of Blue Curtain and Igor.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

Let me see if I've got this right. You think JB is not perfect because he disagrees with your hunch of how to develop some players.

No stinkin' facts or statistics are needed. Beautiful.

Well, I think knee jerk criticisms of the coach can be pretty silly. Especially in the midst of a 28-1 season. And no, I don't think these boards are about taking unsubstatiated potshots at JB.

I think vague internet nit picking is the worst. You can't possibly think that by not playing MCW, JB cost us the USF game, can you? So, are you thinking JB may have cost us some future game now by not playing MCW last night? In your hunch state of developing players do you minus out games that your use of the player may have cost SU (losing at LVille, maybe lose last night)? Somehow I doubt it.

Of course you are going to like the opinions of Blue Curtain and Igor.

Couldn't you make the case that if James and Brandon continue to not contribute very much, that it would have been nice to have another ready body for the post season? You cant just bring MCW off the bench in the Sweet 16 and expect him to be ready to rock, when he hasn't played in a month. Why can the freshman guard from South Florida play meaningful minutes in the Big East and be successful? MCW can't do the same? I understand he has upperclassmen ahead of him... but is Triche some untouchable guard? What has he proven in his three seasons?

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Couldn't you make the case that if James and Brandon continue to not contribute very much, that it would have been nice to have another ready body for the post season? You cant just bring MCW off the bench in the Sweet 16 and expect him to be ready to rock, when he hasn't played in a month. Why can the freshman guard from South Florida play meaningful minutes in the Big East and be successful? MCW can't do the same? I understand he has upperclassmen ahead of him... but is Triche some untouchable guard? What has he proven in his three seasons?

I don't think JB's playing MCW was ever about this year. And certainly not the post season. I think JB will live and die with upperclassmen. And he has three experienced guards.

I would have liked to see more of MCW but I'm not sure at who's expense. I thought MCWs 3 pt stroke looked good against St Johns. But I don't think MCW can play forward to take JS alleged sharp shooter minutes. MCW is just too frail. You seem to think in place of BT, but BT has logged in many hours with JB and earned his trust. Plus BT is playing less than 20 per game as it is.

I would like to see a deeper use of the bench. But I can understand it's not being easy. When JB was playing the 4th guard it seemed to be just for development. Keeping a McD happy, more than any kind of in-game advantage.

Now, a real PF would have been real useful. But that does not seem to have worked out. JB certainly tried, but Rak looks like a lost cause for this year. I hope he keeps playing him but can understand those on the board who think he should give it up - hard to keep everyone happy even at 28-1.

 

[bevosu]

Let me see if I've got this right. You think JB is not perfect because he disagrees with your hunch of how to develop some players.

No stinkin' facts or statistics are needed. Beautiful.

Well, I think knee jerk criticisms of the coach can be pretty silly. Especially in the midst of a 28-1 season. And no, I don't think these boards are about taking unsubstatiated potshots at JB.

I think vague internet nit picking is the worst. You can't possibly think that by not playing MCW, JB cost us the USF game, can you? So, are you thinking JB may have cost us some future game now by not playing MCW last night? In your hunch state of developing players do you minus out games that your use of the player may have cost SU (losing at LVille, maybe lose last night)? Somehow I doubt it.

Of course you are going to like the opinions of Blue Curtain and Igor.

No Sgt...I don't think he's perfect because he's human. I'm pretty sure he'd say the same.

And I don't think I'm necessarily right because I disagree with him on some things. It's an opinion. Most of what you read on this board are opinions.

Your's are just as valid as mine. Sometimes people read things and base their responses on a misinterpretation of what was written. Sometimes what is written isn't clear enough to be interpreted as it was meant to be.

All I know is your response indicates to me that what I wrote was misinterpreted.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

There is no magic number as I'm sure you already know. The key is to make sure your backup has a clear understanding of and feel for real game situations and enough experience and confidence to come in when needed. Yes, this is (or should be) done specifically as preparation against injuries, foul trouble, suspension, etc. No, you don't ask AO (or any player for that matter) if its ok that he take a small cut in minutes from time to time to help develop his backup, you tell him.

Obviously when the game is on the line you have your best players on the floor. But there was lots of opportunity in 2010 as well as throughout this season to provide valuable experience for the 2nd line guys.

Ask AO if he would have sacrificed a little more time throughout the 2010 campaign in favor of a deeper run in the tournament and a possible return to the lineup.

Rick Jackson was AO's back-up. Riley was the "back-up to the back-up". And all the game experience in the world was never going to make Riley equal in talent and ability to AO that year. Two years later, and Riley is only a 4 & 4 guy as a starter in the MAC.

And AO was done for the year. He wasn't coming back for a potential match-up with KState, and he wasn't coming back a week later in the FF.

I'm glad you weren't around in 2003. You'd be complaining that Matt Gorman should be playing 15 minutes a game, even if it meant 15 minutes less from Melo/Hakim.