How it ends: Going out on a whimper

[supp]

Revenue isn’t a good indicator. It also costs a lot more to put on an event such as a bball game at the Dome. Is there a ranking for profit of each schools basketball program?

The Dept. of Education collects that data. The latest is from 2019. Men's Basketball revenues were $22.6 million and expenses were $13.9 million. The program is profitable. I included a couple of comparisons in Duke and Louisville for my search. They make significantly more money and profit than us. Louisville has the Yum! Center sweetheart deal and Duke is Nike's best advertising vehicle. But SU is historically top ten in revenues for men's basketball.

Equity in Athletics

ope.ed.gov

 

[Orangezoo]

You mean the 8 years when we went to three sweet 16’s and a final 4?

Outside of the final four year, we were one of the last teams into the tourney the other years. We had success yes but at the mercy of the selection committee not fully by our own doing. We get left out those years and the regular season becomes more important to everyone not just those looking for a positive. Those runs were a positive for sure but it's a razor thin line and over valuing them glazes over how much we have faded and struggled between November -February and especially in November/December.

 

[Cuse12]

Revenue isn’t a good indicator. It also costs a lot more to put on an event such as a bball game at the Dome. Is there a ranking for profit of each schools basketball program?

Yes we are still top 10 according to forbes, specifically ranked 6th with 17.1 million profit on average.

Either indicator - revenue or profit is top 10. I would say these are great indicators of what our output should be.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Yes we are still top 10 according to forbes, specifically ranked 6th with 17.1 million profit on average.

Either indicator - revenue or profit is top 10. I would say these are great indicators of what our output should be.

Which is all of a guess anyway ... higher ed sports accounting is about as opaque as hollywood accounting. Add in that Syracuse is a private school and it's even more of a fuzzy number that can be massaged in any direction (generally in the direction that they're not making any money, lol).

 

[RF2044]

You mean the 8 years when we went to three sweet 16’s and a final 4?

Outside of the final four year, we were one of the last teams into the tourney the other years. We had success yes but at the mercy of the selection committee not fully by our own doing. We get left out those years and the regular season becomes more important to everyone not just those looking for a positive. Those runs were a positive for sure but it's a razor thin line and over valuing them glazes over how much we have faded and struggled between November -February and especially in November/December.

I wonder what the fanbase's perspective would be if the 2015 and 2020 seasons were included in the above results -- because it's easy to pretend that they didn't occur.

In 2015, we were headed to the NIT but self imposed a postseason ban. So we avoided that outcome.

And in 2020, we were again trending toward NIT -- who knows what might have happened beyond our first game in the ACC tournament -- but COVID abruptly ended the season.

So in both respects, those "negative" results basically didn't occur. Would the mindset be different if a couple of NIT seasons weren't swept under the rug?

 

[Fly Rodder]

It cracks me up that three seasons after sanctions killed any chance of being a good team because of roster restrictions, SU still only has 9.5 players on scholarship (and 1.5 are basically walk-ons at this point).

 

[Cuse12]

Which is all of a guess anyway ... higher ed sports accounting is about as opaque as hollywood accounting. Add in that Syracuse is a private school and it's even more of a fuzzy number that can be massaged in any direction (generally in the direction that they're not making any money, lol).

Lets put it this way though - how many teams sell 35k tickets to a regular season basketball game...I think these figures are close enough to accurate. We are absolutely a top 10 bball school in terms of $$$ either way you slice it. The results are piss poor compared to the $$ being circulated through our bball program.

 

[Orangezoo]

I wonder what the fanbase's perspective would be if the 2015 and 2020 seasons were included in the above results.

In 2015, we were headed to the NIT but self imposed a postseason ban. So we avoided that outcome.

And in 2020, we were again trending toward NIT -- who knows what might have happened beyond our first game in the ACC tournament -- but COVID abruptly ended the season.

So in both respects, those "negative" results basically didn't occur. Would the mindset be different if a couple of NIT seasons weren't swept under the rug?

Yeah and in all honesty I do include those in my view..

 

[FrancoPizza]

Bigger question is how many STHs are sitting on their

I’m with you with the exception of JB retiring after 2022-23 season. He needs to announce in mid February this year will be his last and ride into the sunset with Buddy and Jimmy with a big send off on 3/5 against Miami. They all deserve a big send off and 35k on a Saturday to end the season would do that.

This notion that ADJW can't force this is laughable. It's just a matter of how much patience he has with the current decay rate.

 

[Ozone!]

There are many options available to JAB following retirement; hopefully he is encouraged to retire and do some broadcasting or be a special advisor to the Chancellor which were previously mentioned in this thread. It’s best he does so at the end of this season so that the university is in a favorable position to do a comprehensive search. He may wish to name his successor and I hope JW pushes back on this. I like both Autry and McNamara and yet feel a national search with them included is warranted. However that goes bringing in a very good big man Coach who is also a dynamic recruiter is warranted as well!

 

[721Comstock]

I wonder what the fanbase's perspective would be if the 2015 and 2020 seasons were included in the above results -- because it's easy to pretend that they didn't occur.

In 2015, we were headed to the NIT but self imposed a postseason ban. So we avoided that outcome.

And in 2020, we were again trending toward NIT -- who knows what might have happened beyond our first game in the ACC tournament -- but COVID abruptly ended the season.

So in both respects, those "negative" results basically didn't occur. Would the mindset be different if a couple of NIT seasons weren't swept under the rug?

Meh?

JB & Cuse have had periods of time where we ended up in the NIT, before this past 6-8 years.

(and I'll assume for sake of argument that you're correct about '20 - but I honestly believe the '20 team with Eli woulda won more games, and snuck in to the Big Dance yet again)

Here's a breakdown during the Boeheim era of years that ended with a NIT berth:
(or likely would've, IF there was a postseason, or we didn't self-report/ban)
1981
1982

1992 BANNED
1997

2002
2007
2008

2015 BANNED
2017
* 2020 Covid

IF you go by - "3 NIT's in a block of time is a failure" - then 2002-2008 doesn't look all that great.

... except for that one year, in 2003.

Likewise, this most recent block of years is kinda underwhelming.

... except for FF appearances in 2013 & 2016.

This season has the potential to be the outlier of all outliers in JB's tenure -
we may not only have a losing record, we could then also not make the NIT.

 

[Alsacs]

Seriously, this is vindictive and over-the-line. I’ll even give you the “pedo-scandal” that wasn’t, but blaming someone for “killing a guy in an accident” is just foul.
He wasn’t drunk or impaired, driving recklessly, or anything other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. God forbid you or anyone ever finds themselves in such a situation. ‘d up take, dude.

He is mocking people frustrated with JB and clearly being sarcastic over the top. You don’t know the poster if you think this is a real take.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

View attachment 212394Guess I’m the only one who wants him to stay ‍. He’s my coach. And more importantly I don’t think there is any chance in the world we land an upgrade. Grass isn’t often greener.

I don’t understand.

“Stay” for how long? How much longer can he actually coach? We are going to step on the grass on the other side very soon.

And what does an “upgrade“ need to look like? We are pretty dang consistently a middle of the ACC team. You don’t think anyone else can pilot us to better than that?

We have one national championship in… ever. If you don’t think we can do better than that in the subsequent 50 years… well, that’s kinda ironic, how the “optimist/apologist” contingent seems to hinge its perspectives solely on the fortunes of one man. This isn’t the alum tournament for a million dollars. SU basketball jerseys don’t say ”Boeheim” (uh, on the front).

Seriously, what are you gonna do if he retires at the end of the year and ‘admits’ that was always the plan? Is that it for you, because “JAB is Syracuse basketball?

 

[rrlbees]

The Dept. of Education collects that data. The latest is from 2019. Men's Basketball revenues were $22.6 million and expenses were $13.9 million. The program is profitable. I included a couple of comparisons in Duke and Louisville for my search. They make significantly more money and profit than us. Louisville has the Yum! Center sweetheart deal and Duke is Nike's best advertising vehicle. But SU is historically top ten in revenues for men's basketball.

Equity in Athletics

ope.ed.gov

I can’t get that thing to work. Probably me.

 

[DoctorBombay]

He is mocking people frustrated with JB and clearly being sarcastic over the top. You don’t know the poster if you think this is a real take.

If that's the case, I stand corrected. It just seemed waaaay over the top, and I've had family history with that kinda thing so maybe I'm a bit more sensitive.

 

[HoustonCuse]

He is mocking people frustrated with JB and clearly being sarcastic over the top. You don’t know the poster if you think this is a real take.

Alsacs, I was wondering if anybody would say anything. I went from being JB shill to a savage hater in 5 seconds! I guess you can reinvent yourself!

But seriously I wasn’t being sarcastic exactly, I was honestly pointing out that JB has survived a lot. A lot more than possibly any other coach ever has. Some of it his fault and some of it not his fault but still big ugly things. So it is just not going to happen that he gets relieved of duty for an outburst in a PC, which was the supposition I was responding to.

 

[UD1954]

When Boehiem finally retires l expect a downturn in the program because l dont expect Boehiem to help with the transition like coach K is doing at Duke...

 

[ClamOtto]

When Boehiem finally retires l expect a downturn in the program because l dont expect Boehiem to help with the transition like coach K is doing at Duke...

I would think K's retirement could be a factor here too. If I had a career like JB's, I don't think I'd want my retirement to be relegated to a minor story because it coincides with the retirement of a bigger name, even if he's my buddy. I can't blame him. And that will definitely happen if JB announces his retirement before the end of the season. My guess would be either a) he already knows but won't announce it until summer so it gets the attention it deserves and increases the likelihood an assistant takes over or b) he plans to keep going. A losing season probably makes option b more likely.

 

[OrlandoCuse]

When Boehiem finally retires l expect a downturn in the program because l dont expect Boehiem to help with the transition like coach K is doing at Duke...

Ummm, hate to break it to you but there’s already been a downturn in the program. Fresh start is what is needed. We have the facilities and history as a top program to quickly recover as long as we make the right hire.

 

[dollarbill44]

View attachment 212394Guess I’m the only one who wants him to stay ‍. He’s my coach. And more importantly I don’t think there is any chance in the world we land an upgrade. Grass isn’t often greener.

Which era of JB are we looking to upgrade? If you say 1976 to 2014, I agree. If we're talking 2017- 2022, I don't think an upgrade is far-fetched.

And before anyone jumps on me, JB is rightfully a HOF coach and deserves all the reverie he gets, but saying he isn't the coach he once was shouldn't be seen as an attack on him or diminish his accomplishments one bit. But, there comes a time in everyone's career when it is time to move on. Most people can make that decision on their own while others have to be told by their boss.

 

[JustPherU]

When Boehiem finally retires l expect a downturn in the program because l dont expect Boehiem to help with the transition like coach K is doing at Duke...

Why in the world would he not help? Guy has been there his entire life and to think he wouldn’t want to help is mind boggling.

 

[DilemaCuse]

It cracks me up that three seasons after sanctions killed any chance of being a good team because of roster restrictions, SU still only has 9.5 players on scholarship (and 1.5 are basically walk-ons at this point).

Its insane he is still doing the Tyus Battle/Frank Howard both play 40 mins backcourt because they have no other guards, when he no longer has scholarship reductions.

Who needs the NCAA to penalize your roster when the coach elects to penalize it himself

 

[Cusefan69]

Which era of JB are we looking to upgrade? If you say 1976 to 2014, I agree. If we're talking 2017- 2022, I don't think an upgrade is far-fetched.

And before anyone jumps on me, JB is rightfully a HOF coach and deserves all the reverie he gets, but saying he isn't the coach he once was shouldn't be seen as an attack on him or diminish his accomplishments one bit. But, there comes a time in everyone's career when it is time to move on. Most people can make that decision on their own while others have to be told by their boss.

This^^^. Spot on. I would like to believe JB would be self aware enough to understand what is going on and I would really like to believe that those people in his inner circle have his ear enough. JB deserved his HOF storybook ending but he overshot it. Coaching Buddy in the tournament last year and seeing Buddy get National press and hitting big shots was really a chance for him to depart on a high note with his son. Ok maybe he wanted to coach both boys...so one more year but really it's time. I feel bad for him that he may not be cognizant of that. Hopefully he is aware. I get it...it's tough, I am not saying it isn't but come on. Enough is enough. I both want and don't want his era to end but really it's time. That's not a slam on him either, it just is what it is.

 

[OrlandoCuse]

This^^^. Spot on. I would like to believe JB would be self aware enough to understand what is going on and I would really like to believe that those people in his inner circle have his ear enough. JB deserved his HOF storybook ending but he overshot it. Coaching Buddy in the tournament last year and seeing Buddy get National press and hitting big shots was really a chance for him to depart on a high note with his son. Ok maybe he wanted to coach both boys...so one more year but really it's time. I feel bad for him that he may not be cognizant of that. Hopefully he is aware. I get it...it's tough, I am not saying it isn't but come on. Enough is enough. I both want and don't want his era to end but really it's time. That's not a slam on him either, it just is what it is.

Massive ego clouds awareness

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Massive ego clouds awareness

Let's call it "pride."
He prolly deserves that much.