How it ends: Going out on a whimper

[Alsacs]

If any of you are fans of the English Premier League the Boeheim descent is very similar to the Arsene Wenger era at Arsenal. Held on for about 4 years too long because he was a legend and continued to win lesser cups (FA Cups). Similar to Jim getting the team to the Sweet 16 with duct tape and super glue.

To me, the next era of Syracuse basketball will be choppy. Jim deserves a massive send off. He is Syracuse basketball. This program needs stability and he gave it for 45 plus years. that built it into a machine.

The machine needs new oil. To me a coach in his late 70s isn't going to pivot enough to put it back on the right tracks.

It doesn't seem too difficult except Jim may be obstinate to the end.

This thread is going to be 8 years old.

Kinda OT: for EPL fans - is JB really Arsene Wenger?

I think these days the one sport I follow more than any other is soccer... Mainly because I am a Mets, Knicks, Bills, Syracuse fan and they all are not doing so great this century. In other news I hate sports. I've always been an EPL fan following Liverpool since the Michael Owen goal vs...

syracusefan.com

 

[hoopsupstate]

Because someone coaches for ten years doesn’t automatically become more qualified than someone who coaches five years. It has more to do with the intangibles they bring to the table. I’m sure they both know the game, but there’s a lot more than that to coaching 18-22 yea4 olds. Some coaches have the ability to see things before they even happen. Some have a drive or intensity that sets them apart. If JW chooses someone in-house it will be based on more than just how long they’ve coached.

 

[Alsacs]

Red's Resume:

In 2006, Autry and his family moved to Northern Virginia. In Northern Virginia, Autry began his coaching career as the associate head coach at Bishop Ireton Catholic High School. In the spring of 2007, Autry became involved in the AAU circuit, by becoming the coach of the 14-Under squad with NOVA United.

During the 2007-2008 school year, Autry was named an assistant coach at Paul VI High School. In 2008, Autry switched AAU teams and became an assistant coach for the 17-Under AAU squad Team Takeover.

In the fall of 2008, Autry was hired by Virginia Tech's Head Men's Basketball coach Seth Greenberg as the Director of Basketball Operations. Autry held that position for two years and was then promoted to assistant basketball coach for the Hokies. In the spring of 2010, Autry was on his way to the University of Dayton to become the associate head coach under Archie Miller. However, he never made it there. A position with his alma mater Syracuse University became available when Rob Murphy was named the head coach at Eastern Michigan University. Autry quickly accepted the position and remains there now. Autry currently coaches and develops the forwards position.

Coaching career (HC unless noted)
2006–2007	Bishop Ireton HS (associate HC)
2007–2008	Paul VI HS (assistant)
2008–2010	Virginia Tech (director of basketball ops.)
2010–2011	Virginia Tech (assistant)
2011–2016	Syracuse (assistant)
2016–present	Syracuse (associate HC)

GMac's resume:

On July 22, 2009, McNamara joined the basketball team's coaching staff as a graduate manager. In November 2011, McNamara was promoted to assistant coach, with a focus on development of the guards.

Coaching career (HC unless noted)
2009–2011	Syracuse (grad mgr.)
2011–present	Syracuse (asst.)

I don't understand why everyone thinks the #2 assistant will get promoted over the more experienced #1 assistant.

Why did JB go to JW when MH left and want to make GMac HCIW.

I trust RF when he says that.

If we go internal it will be a bad decision but it better be RA over GMac.
The idea we have been struggling and the pick as successor is on the bench now is stupid. As JB can still in game coach like very few it’s doubtful a current SU assistant could in game coach better.

 

[Orangezoo]

If any of you are fans of the English Premier League the Boeheim descent is very similar to the Arsene Wenger era at Arsenal. Held on for about 4 years too long because he was a legend and continued to win lesser cups (FA Cups). Similar to Jim getting the team to the Sweet 16 with duct tape and super glue.

To me, the next era of Syracuse basketball will be choppy. Jim deserves a massive send off. He is Syracuse basketball. This program needs stability and he gave it for 45 plus years. that built it into a machine.

The machine needs new oil. To me a coach in his late 70s isn't going to pivot enough to put it back on the right tracks.

It doesn't seem too difficult except Jim may be obstinate to the end.

I can relate as a Gunner supporter here. Sadly the post Wenger world has been worse.

 

[rottweiler44]

Why did JB go to JW when MH left and want to make GMac HCIW.

I trust RF when he says that.

If we go internal it will be a bad decision but it better be RA over GMac.
The idea we have been struggling and the pick as successor is on the bench now is stupid. As JB can still in game coach like very few it’s doubtful a current SU assistant could in game coach better.

Didn't know Red coached at Ireton and PVI. Coaching in the WCAC is not all that different than high level D1...lots of elite talent. If he still has strong connections there it could be a recruiting boost.

 

[Alsacs]

I can relate as a Gunner supporter here. Sadly the post Wenger world has been worse.

You guys are battling for 4th. I can’t believe how your arrogant manager stripped the captaincy of Auba actually worked.
After the first 3 matches of this year I thought arsenal was a bottom 5 team but they are in position to be a 4th place club.

Arsenal has ownership issues.
Syracuse has a coach who doesn’t want to adapt and can’t be find a way to be sympathetic with his arrogance. Syracuse is hurting itself a lot.

 

[kcsu]

Red's Resume:

In 2006, Autry and his family moved to Northern Virginia. In Northern Virginia, Autry began his coaching career as the associate head coach at Bishop Ireton Catholic High School. In the spring of 2007, Autry became involved in the AAU circuit, by becoming the coach of the 14-Under squad with NOVA United.

During the 2007-2008 school year, Autry was named an assistant coach at Paul VI High School. In 2008, Autry switched AAU teams and became an assistant coach for the 17-Under AAU squad Team Takeover.

In the fall of 2008, Autry was hired by Virginia Tech's Head Men's Basketball coach Seth Greenberg as the Director of Basketball Operations. Autry held that position for two years and was then promoted to assistant basketball coach for the Hokies. In the spring of 2010, Autry was on his way to the University of Dayton to become the associate head coach under Archie Miller. However, he never made it there. A position with his alma mater Syracuse University became available when Rob Murphy was named the head coach at Eastern Michigan University. Autry quickly accepted the position and remains there now. Autry currently coaches and develops the forwards position.

Coaching career (HC unless noted)
2006–2007	Bishop Ireton HS (associate HC)
2007–2008	Paul VI HS (assistant)
2008–2010	Virginia Tech (director of basketball ops.)
2010–2011	Virginia Tech (assistant)
2011–2016	Syracuse (assistant)
2016–present	Syracuse (associate HC)

GMac's resume:

On July 22, 2009, McNamara joined the basketball team's coaching staff as a graduate manager. In November 2011, McNamara was promoted to assistant coach, with a focus on development of the guards.

Coaching career (HC unless noted)
2009–2011	Syracuse (grad mgr.)
2011–present	Syracuse (asst.)

I don't understand why everyone thinks the #2 assistant will get promoted over the more experienced #1 assistant.

Its just a hunch on my part. No idea at all. I do however think he would do very well. His energy level and ability to connect with the kids is a huge positive.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Why did JB go to JW when MH left and want to make GMac HCIW.

I trust RF when he says that.

If we go internal it will be a bad decision but it better be RA over GMac.
The idea we have been struggling and the pick as successor is on the bench now is stupid. As JB can still in game coach like very few it’s doubtful a current SU assistant could in game coach better.

Neither have the experience to warrant getting the gig. That being said is 3 years at VA Tech really all that big a deal? Because that is the difference between the 2.

 

[Alsacs]

Neither have the experience to warrant getting the gig. That being said is 3 years at VA Tech really all that big a deal? Because that is the difference between the 2.

One has the title of associate head coach and the other has never left the Syracuse incubator as a coach. Who is more qualified just on those results? If GMAC is better candidate then Autry should’ve never been made associate head coach.

Making GMAC the next head coach wouldn’t solve our problems.

 

[Sherman20]

Respect your opinion but just don't understand the thinking. If you are running a business and see results trending down for several years in a row, do you not do anything because you're afraid it might get worse?

JB has had one of the best careers of all time. We might not get an upgrade from that - probably won't. But the odds of getting an upgrade from the last several seasons seem to be much better.

My frustration is that this is all simply a failure of roster construction, talent acquisition and player retention. He’s still a great strategist and in-game coach and has one of the best minds in the game. But he’s struggled to assemble the kind of talent he needs to execute what he wants to do on both offense and defense. He should listen to his assistant coaches more on roster construction and talent retention. I’m sure they were begging him to handle Kadary, Woody, Griffin and others differently. And it’s an abject failure to have the gift of the transfer portal and then not take full advantage of it like he failed to last season. We needed some players who were good at both offense and defense.

 

[OrlandoCuse]

The concern I have with both Red and GMac is that they have been part of the slide over the past 5 years. Primarily poor recruiting. Also, if either are named next head coach they’d most likely not change anything about the program, just an extension of JB’s system. JB’s system is old and doesn’t work in today’s version of college basketball.

You don’t see UNC running the 4 Corners because “Dean Smith is UNC Basketball”

New blood, new direction. Clean slate is what is needed.

However, I’m 90% sure JW will keep it in house and most likely give it to Red. Probably the wrong decision, but it’s the decision he’s going to make.

 

[RF2044]

The concern I have with both Red and GMac is that they have been part of the slide over the past 5 years. Primarily poor recruiting. Also, if either are named next head coach they’d most likely not change anything about the program, just an extension of JB’s system. JB’s system is old and doesn’t work in today’s version of college basketball.

You don’t see UNC running the 4 Corners because “Dean Smith is UNC Basketball”

New blood, new direction. Clean slate is what is needed.

However, I’m 90% sure JW will keep it in house and most likely give it to Red. Probably the wrong decision, but it’s the decision he’s going to make.

That's 100% correct.

I think it is fair to question how well either of those AC's teach the game, given the subpar product we see on the floor. Compare and contrast how we play on offense to that very average UVa team we lost to. Their passing, ball movement, spacing, and movement without the ball stands in marked contrast to what our players do. It's like watching the varsity play against the JV -- and sure, the JV has some great shooters, but if they aren't lighting it up then we seemingly have no chance, even against "average" teams.

Another weakness of this group is recruiting. Honestly, what noteworthy recruit have either of them landed?

You are 100% spot on that these two are part of the issue with the current program decline. And these are the two that people believe "deserve" to leapfrog far more qualified candidates from outside of the program?

No thanks.

 

[Sherman20]

Meh?

JB & Cuse have had periods of time where we ended up in the NIT, before this past 6-8 years.

(and I'll assume for sake of argument that you're correct about '20 - but I honestly believe the '20 team with Eli woulda won more games, and snuck in to the Big Dance yet again)

Here's a breakdown during the Boeheim era of years that ended with a NIT berth:
(or likely would've, IF there was a postseason, or we didn't self-report/ban)
1981
1982

1992 BANNED
1997

2002
2007
2008

2015 BANNED
2017
* 2020 Covid

IF you go by - "3 NIT's in a block of time is a failure" - then 2002-2008 doesn't look all that great.

... except for that one year, in 2003.

Likewise, this most recent block of years is kinda underwhelming.

... except for FF appearances in 2013 & 2016.

This season has the potential to be the outlier of all outliers in JB's tenure -
we may not only have a losing record, we could then also not make the NIT.

Just want to point out that your singling out of 2002-2008 as some kind of down era, except for the 2003 national championship year, completely leaves out the major successes of 2004 (tied for #3 in the Big East, #5 NCAA seed, Sweet 16), 2005 (#3 in the Big East, Big East tourney champs, #4 NCAA seed) and 2006 (Big East tourney champs and #6 NCAA seed). The NITs in 2007 and 08 weren’t seen as part of an extended down era. (We also got infamously robbed from an NCAA bid in 2007.)

 

[Alsacs]

Just want to point out that your singling out of 2002-2008 as some kind of down era, except for the 2003 national championship year, completely leaves out the major successes of 2004 (tied for #3 in the Big East, #5 NCAA seed, Sweet 16), 2005 (#3 in the Big East, Big East tourney champs, #4 NCAA seed) and 2006 (Big East tourney champs and #6 NCAA seed). The NITs in 2007 and 08 weren’t seen as part of a down era. (We also got infamously robbed from an NCAA bid in 2007.)

If we had the 68 team tournament we make the First Four in 2007 and 2008.

Pre-2014 we had season we would struggle in but program wasn’t consistently medicore.

 

[Sherman20]

JB cant stand Oats.
Oats will not be offered let alone hired.

Where are you getting this completely absurd intel? Oh, please, he criticized him publicly for his comments on K. That’s called a guy coming to the defense of his good friend—and JB being his outspoken self. Talk about a nothingburger

 

[Yukon]

Love Calhoun the coach, but he surely didn’t step away on his own. Put it this way, they didn’t name the court after him…

Categorically untrue. His retirement was late in the game and strategically forced Warde Manuel to settle for his choice as successor. The athletic department at the time was anticipating his retirement in the next few years but it was a shock to everyone in the know (including people close to me.) They were also apparently back channel discussions with Shaka Smart about succeeding Calhoun however I don’t have secondhand knowledge of that.

With regards to court, when you have another basketball coach with an even more impressive resume I’m pretty sure that was never in play. Calhoun still has an office in the practice facility which he regularly uses and they renamed the street outside Gampel after him when he retired. Calhoun has never been good about hiding his opinion and you better believe he would have lashed out if he was forced out.

 

[two3zone]

Neither have the experience to warrant getting the gig. That being said is 3 years at VA Tech really all that big a deal? Because that is the difference between the 2.

We could pull out the recruits made by each coach, have a feeling it’s not favorable to Gmac.

 

[MSOrange]

The concern I have with both Red and GMac is that they have been part of the slide over the past 5 years. Primarily poor recruiting. Also, if either are named next head coach they’d most likely not change anything about the program, just an extension of JB’s system. JB’s system is old and doesn’t work in today’s version of college basketball.

You don’t see UNC running the 4 Corners because “Dean Smith is UNC Basketball”

New blood, new direction. Clean slate is what is needed.

However, I’m 90% sure JW will keep it in house and most likely give it to Red. Probably the wrong decision, but it’s the decision he’s going to make.

That's a very good point about the 4 corners and UNC. I have read a few posters mention that we need to find a coach who will keep the zone because it's tradition and people won't like it if they can't recognize Syracuse basketball.

That kind of thinking boggles my mind. What I see right now I don't recognize as SU basketball. I find it hard to believe that ADJW requiring a certain defense would make our job very attractive if the coach isn't comfortable with it and can't coach it very well.

I don't care what defense we play or anything else. I just want to win!

 

[MikeSU02]

I've always figured JB would only retire based one of two ways - health or another probation. I never thought he'd leave upon coaching his sons (maybe that wasn't ever in the equation, I dunno). If he leaves after this year, I'd be surprised, but maybe?

I don't know about Red or GMac or an external candidate. Every candidate comes with risks. I would just hope that JB doesn't lord over the program after he retires like others have so the new person has freedom to do what he wants (I don't know if JB would be like that, the guy may end up taking that golfing gig with Rochester that he turned down way back when for all I know) and I hope the JW has a full coaching search with both internal and external candidates.

It's always tough to follow a legend, but especially one that differs from the others in that he is an upstate NY guy as it is. Coach K wasn't from the Durham area. He didn't play at Duke. He didn't coach his whole tenure at Duke. JB is from the area, played, assistant coach, coach, etc. The dude isn't just Syracuse basketball, the guy is as upstate/CNY as you can get. Also, and I'm not saying this as a jab, we aren't recruiting at the level of a K or even a UNC to just hand the baton over for a continuity hire, imo.

Maybe GMac would blow everyone away in an interview process, I honestly don't know. And if that's the case, give him the job. But I'm going to assume JB is the coach until he can't coach anymore.

I've seen JB shake things up to get the program re-energized and back to prominence, but I just don't think that's on the table anymore. Maybe I'm wrong. I dunno. But I really hope that next year things are a little different.

As much as I gripe about JB, I don't want the guy to go out on a losing note. I hate that idea. This dude has given me so many great sports memories in my lifetime that I hate the idea of him going out with a .500 team or even a losing team.

The silver lining is our recruiting for next year is solid. Let's hope we can get our footing again.

 

[OrangeFoo]

This thread is going to be 8 years old.

Kinda OT: for EPL fans - is JB really Arsene Wenger?

I think these days the one sport I follow more than any other is soccer... Mainly because I am a Mets, Knicks, Bills, Syracuse fan and they all are not doing so great this century. In other news I hate sports. I've always been an EPL fan following Liverpool since the Michael Owen goal vs...

syracusefan.com

Oh my lord... when I die, I hope "Starter of the is Jim Boeheim actually Arsene Wenger thread" is engraved on my tombstone.

On a side note, it's insane to me that 8 years later this thread is still relevant. Wenger retired in 2018 yet we are still debating whether JB should retire.

 

[MSOrange]

I've always figured JB would only retire based one of two ways - health or another probation. I never thought he'd leave upon coaching his sons (maybe that wasn't ever in the equation, I dunno). If he leaves after this year, I'd be surprised, but maybe?

I don't know about Red or GMac or an external candidate. Every candidate comes with risks. I would just hope that JB doesn't lord over the program after he retires like others have so the new person has freedom to do what he wants (I don't know if JB would be like that, the guy may end up taking that golfing gig with Rochester that he turned down way back when for all I know) and I hope the JW has a full coaching search with both internal and external candidates.

It's always tough to follow a legend, but especially one that differs from the others in that he is an upstate NY guy as it is. Coach K wasn't from the Durham area. He didn't play at Duke. He didn't coach his whole tenure at Duke. JB is from the area, played, assistant coach, coach, etc. The dude isn't just Syracuse basketball, the guy is as upstate/CNY as you can get. Also, and I'm not saying this as a jab, we aren't recruiting at the level of a K or even a UNC to just hand the baton over for a continuity hire, imo.

Maybe GMac would blow everyone away in an interview process, I honestly don't know. And if that's the case, give him the job. But I'm going to assume JB is the coach until he can't coach anymore.

I've seen JB shake things up to get the program re-energized and back to prominence, but I just don't think that's on the table anymore. Maybe I'm wrong. I dunno. But I really hope that next year things are a little different.

As much as I gripe about JB, I don't want the guy to go out on a losing note. I hate that idea. This dude has given me so many great sports memories in my lifetime that I hate the idea of him going out with a .500 team or even a losing team.

The silver lining is our recruiting for next year is solid. Let's hope we can get our footing again.

Excellent post. I agree literally from top to bottom.

 

[OttoMets]

...

I don't understand why everyone thinks the #2 assistant will get promoted over the more experienced #1 assistant.

But you see, he's more athletic than the other guy.

 

[OttoMets]

... JB can still in game coach like very few it’s doubtful a current SU assistant could in game coach better.

THIS.

Even for the detractors out there, everybody agrees that Boeheim's a 99th-percentile talent as a coach.

What are the odds that one of his former players on the bench is somehow better than he is?

It's the worst of both worlds: someone who's a downgrade from Boeheim at all the important stuff but also shares his flaws that have created the current situation. No thanks.

 

[Ozone!]

When a legend retires his replacement often fails. That’s a plus for the Pitino replacement folks; not saying I am a fan
of this move. Just saying he would succeed massively here.

I love all three of our current assistants and yet there is much to be said for not to continue with anyone currently in the program. They would be better served moving on to other HC jobs, IMO. Unless following a national search one of them rises to the top.

My wish is for the program to transform into one of the top programs in the country. To do that we need new thinking and coaching to complete against other top programs!

To do that we must hire a bright basketball mind who is a top recruiter and teacher; along with assistants who have that same pedigree of skills. To do so we must compensate that individual well as we keep upgrading our facilities.

We must rise to the occasion! Go Orange!!!

 

[orangemass]

We are a sleeping giant... Need a recruiter/head coach with moxie to turn it around...