How will he be remembered?

Zelda Zonk

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No question and I have Dean on my Mt Rushmore of coaches. I was just trying to show how close things can be. He wins his first title with mj in a game where Freddy Brown throws the ball away. His 2nd title is the Chris Webber timeout game.
You mention "Mt Rushmore." Which is a pretty good illustration of where this discussion falls off the rails.

And it's largely a matter of an individual's definition of "legendary," how freely they apply it, and how many coaches can 'legitimately' be considered "legendary." For me, the word means quite a lot. A "legend" to me is reserved for very, very few. Others either feel differently or just rank JB higher than i do either way.
 

oldpinepoint

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Legend here locally, great coach in basketball circles, universally known as a coach who didn’t know when to hang them up.
 

cliftonparksufan

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Personally, I'm an SU fan, not a JB fan [will Townie come running from the locker room down the ramp having read this?]
JB is SU basketball. How do real fans like one and not the other. You can't be all in. What's the sense of it.
 

Eric15

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Lute Olson only won 1.
Jimmy V only won 1.
John Thompson only won 1
Rollie Massimino only won 1
Izzo only won 1.
Bill Self only won 1.


Think of all the coaches who never won any.
I think we tend to overrate titles when evaluating the greatness of coaches. And I'm not just saying that because JB is our guy.

Jimmy V and Rollie for example were very charismatic/likable guys who won titles, but their careers in my opinion weren't nearly as good as Gene Keady, John Chaney and many others who haven't won one.
 

Killdozer

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You can’t even remember how to spell Keady’s name.
That will happen when typing it out on a cell. Anyway, never said I was friends with Keady, just said I played golf with him. He was in my foursome for a charity event I played.
 

Eric15

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No question and I have Dean on my Mt Rushmore of coaches. I was just trying to show how close things can be. He wins his first title with mj in a game where Freddy Brown throws the ball away. His 2nd title is the Chris Webber timeout game.
I think not missing a single NCAA tournament between 1975 and 1997, never having a losing season except for his very first year, having only 5 double-digit loss seasons in 36 years, 11 Final Fours, and all the countless regular season and conference titles are what make Dean a Mount Rushmore coach. Whether he won 1 or 2 or 3 titles based on a single play here and there doesn't move the needle for me.
 

MSOrange

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No question if you handed someone from Kansas a lacrosse stick they would have no idea what to do with it.

Actually lacrosse is played at many high schools across Kansas. Not sure they know about the sport's history, but they play it here.
 

br801

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I think we tend to overrate titles when evaluating the greatness of coaches. And I'm not just saying that because JB is our guy.

Jimmy V and Rollie for example were very charismatic/likable guys who won titles, but their careers in my opinion weren't nearly as good as Gene Keady, John Chaney and many others who haven't won one.
Phil Woolpert won two NCAA titles with Bill Russell at the University of San Francisco, and I would venture to guess that 90% of the people posting in this forum have never heard of him.
 

Briancuse

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Actually lacrosse is played at many high schools across Kansas. Not sure they know about the sport's history, but they play it here.
I was just half kidding. There is no question about the growth in the past 10-15 years.
 

dasher

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Firstly, i don't have any particular reverence for Dean Smith. I included him in the discussion because it's probably accepted nationally that he would be included in a list of "legendary" coaches.

Secondly, the "two blunders" are still a part of the game. The results are the results. It's not really constructive to go back and add or subtract from a record based on microparticulars of how it happened. If you subtract Dean's because of two mistakes, you can add to JB's because of a missed FT or an injured player. Where does it end?

Thirdly, you keep citing Michael Jordan being on the roster as a negative. Which is ridiculous. A) You have to spot the talent, recruit the talent, develop the talent. Which should be included as a Plus for the coach. Michael Jordan wasn't Michael Jordan at North Carolina. He was no better than Carmelo, Pearl, or DC. B) There is no "B"—"A" covers it.

Fourthly, 'we weren't a power before JB.' You also need to factor in that the Carrier Dome was a wildly impactful factor toward us becoming and remaining 'a power.' There have been two factors consistent in our 'power history.' JB is half of that.
I thought you brought up JB having Melo when you were talking about having one of the best players. I mentioned Jordan i think once. That isn't keep citing but whatever. And Michael Jordan was Michael Jordan at UNC. He just had to share that with other great players. Sam Perkins. James Worthy. We have never had a team with that much talent.
I would include the addition of the Big East as much as the Dome. but regardless, JB was at the helm when it happened. And in 40 years in the Big East, a great hoop conference, we had the best record. And it wasn't all that close. The reason, we really never slipped far from the top. If your argument is that jb hasn't been a legendary coach, I think you are wrong. You, I'm sure, are not alone in that judgment. I think the numbers say otherwise.
 

kcsu

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It's who he is. I have defended his coaching for the first 40 years of his career. I have never defended the way he often treats people. I have told this story before, I was working in Bay State West in Spfd Mass and the Orange were staying in the Marriot in the bg. JB was in the lobby as I am walking by. I stop and say hi coach, class of '78 and a long time fan. He didn't even look at me and gave a weak handshake. Okay. late in the day, I'm leaving work and he is on the other side of the floor. He sees me and waves. Strange. I can't explain him. I helped one of my roommates by being interviewed at Newhouse by him. One his classmates asked Jb and JB showed up. Complex guy.
He is at his core insecure and more an introvert. Its why he becomes aggressive when challenged. JBs best trait is loyalty its why he hires from within and supports his players better than almost any coach even though he is outwardly critical of them.
Read his book. He is very open in it and its very telling. Jim likes familiarity. He doesn't like change and he wont. Hopefully he goes out on top. Would like to see him make one more run as he deserves it.
 

dasher

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He is at his core insecure and more an introvert. Its why he becomes aggressive when challenged. JBs best trait is loyalty its why he hires from within and supports his players better than almost any coach even though he is outwardly critical of them.
Read his book. He is very open in it and its very telling. Jim likes familiarity. He doesn't like change and he wont. Hopefully he goes out on top. Would like to see him make one more run as he deserves it.
I don't disagree but don't let those traits be treated as that's just Jim. There is never a real good excuse to be mean or rude to someone because you can be. And JB does do that. He also does a lot of good things. As i said in another post, a complex guy. we all want him to put one more great team together and have one more run. the problem is, right now we are relying on luck. Some kid just gets a lot better than anyone could have seen coming. Yes, that happens. But not all that often. you have to work hard to be good. And at 76, the body can't cash checks the mind writes.
 

cliftonparksufan

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Phil Woolpert won two NCAA titles with Bill Russell at the University of San Francisco, and I would venture to guess that 90% of the people posting in this forum have never heard of him.
I've heard of him but went to his wiki page to read. He was inducted in the Basketball HOF and retired relatively early and moved to the State of Washington and became a school bus driver. Not a route I see JAB taking.
 

Capt. Tuttle

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I think you are to close to the program and JAB to give a blanket statement that sport fans will cite him as one of the best coaches in history. I no longer live in NY and when people here find out I am an SU fan they immediately state that "your coach is a crybaby and a nose picker". They never mentioned him by name. I played golf with Gene Keaty a few years ago and he said that Jim Boeheim is the biggest whiner out of any coaches he's ever coached against. That's how he's going to be remembered.
Gene Keady.
 

kcsu

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I think we tend to overrate titles when evaluating the greatness of coaches. And I'm not just saying that because JB is our guy.

Jimmy V and Rollie for example were very charismatic/likable guys who won titles, but their careers in my opinion weren't nearly as good as Gene Keady, John Chaney and many others who haven't won one.

I don't disagree but don't let those traits be treated as that's just Jim. There is never a real good excuse to be mean or rude to someone because you can be. And JB does do that. He also does a lot of good things. As i said in another post, a complex guy. we all want him to put one more great team together and have one more run. the problem is, right now we are relying on luck. Some kid just gets a lot better than anyone could have seen coming. Yes, that happens. But not all that often. you have to work hard to be good. And at 76, the body can't cash checks the mind writes.
Agreed. As i posted earlier Jim has never recovered from losing Hop. It would be like Johnny without Ed. Jim needed Hop and it looks like Hop needed Jim. Together they were a force. On their own they are both good but not close to what they were as a partnership.
I see it all the time in business and life and have personally lived it. I was at my best personally and professionally when my wife was alive. We made each other better. Im sure you and most on this board have all experienced what im talking about.
Jim and Hop were special. Its a shame that JB couldn't have finished his career with Hop at his side.
 

Zelda Zonk

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I thought you brought up JB having Melo when you were talking about having one of the best players. I mentioned Jordan i think once. That isn't keep citing but whatever. And Michael Jordan was Michael Jordan at UNC. He just had to share that with other great players. Sam Perkins. James Worthy. We have never had a team with that much talent.
I would include the addition of the Big East as much as the Dome. but regardless, JB was at the helm when it happened. And in 40 years in the Big East, a great hoop conference, we had the best record. And it wasn't all that close. The reason, we really never slipped far from the top. If your argument is that jb hasn't been a legendary coach, I think you are wrong. You, I'm sure, are not alone in that judgment. I think the numbers say otherwise.
I don't want to review, but i believe someone—in response to my comment—noted that Smith had Jordan, which diminished Smith's championships/minimized Smith's 'legendaryness.'

Great point about us having the best record in the Big East.

My argument is not that JB is or isn't a "legendary" coach. It's that the answer depends on who you are, and that there isn't a "true" answer, as so many of his fans seem to demand there be. Also, that it's not about numbers. It's a matter of perception, and the perception nationally is very different from the one in this forum among his most ardent supporters. We're also talking about "legacy," which factors in time and history.

The other thing is that people get extremely sensitive about discussions where they seem to have personal identity wrapped up in the items being discussed. If you go to a bar, and some stranger blurts out "Syracuse sucks," you might end up in an argument. Because you've somehow felt insulted. If you and another alum and friend have a discussion and he says the same thing, there's likely to be a different response, because identity has been somewhat removed since you both share that identity. Point being that some of us can be critical of something and that doesn't mean we 'hate' it. We can be at varying points on a linear scale of feeling about something, and not feel it necessary to be binary/all or nothing. It's as if, too often here, that an effort to be objective is characterized as "negative," when those who are "positive" are clearly working with primarily subjective fighting points. And if you try to adopt the perspective of an outsider, they can't understand that you don't necessarily espouse all of those views—just that they are valid toward contributing to a more objective discussion.

Maybe the bottom line to all of this is to establish what "legendary" means. How many coaches can be considered "legendary?" If it's a Mt Rushmore thing, and you get 4, is JB on the mountain? Do you get 10? 20?

But, hey—as i said, i don't dole out such words willy nilly. I even cringe when someone calls himself an "artist." You ask me how many "legendary" coaches i could name, and there might only be 3 or 4. And i have no idea how many games any of them have won.
 

Zelda Zonk

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He is at his core insecure and more an introvert. Its why he becomes aggressive when challenged. JBs best trait is loyalty its why he hires from within and supports his players better than almost any coach even though he is outwardly critical of them.
Read his book. He is very open in it and its very telling. Jim likes familiarity. He doesn't like change and he wont. Hopefully he goes out on top. Would like to see him make one more run as he deserves it.
There is a lot of psychology illustrated there.
The "loyalty" thing can also be an affect of insecurity. You hire the familiar because they present less of a challenge to you. I've always thought a lot of the recruiting was also done with a similar 'fear' as a factor.

I'm also an insecure introvert, and probably have more in common with JB than any other coach i can think of... ironically.

I don't have that "aggressive when challenged" thing, though. But, if i had 20 million dollars/'FU Money', it's possible that would develop. : )
 

SaltLakeOrange

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I appreciate JB for all that he's done for the program, and his loyalty to SU.

And I also agree that it's well past time for him to step down - he's putting Wildhack is an unenviable position.

I find his behavior and public comments this year to be extremely strange, and personally, off-putting. I also don't understand his uneven treatment of local vs. national media.

I think ADJW put himself in this situation. Time for him to step up and do what's right for our program. JB will be remembered as one of the best. But his time has past.
 

SaltLakeOrange

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JB is SU basketball. How do real fans like one and not the other. You can't be all in. What's the sense of it.

No. He. Isn't. I am all in and always will be but I will never agree with your statement.
 

MadNY3

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Simmons Jr had six national championships and had us as a preeminent national power for a long time. That was a legendary career.

[Jeez—I didn’t realize Desko had five. Wow.]

...in a sport very few played at a time versus Boeheim, who coached college basketball which was already national, built a program with no notoriety to one that made the sport a must-see on Monday nights leading to strong ratings.

To hold Boeheim to a father-son handoff is way off, IMO. Name any major sport (lacrosse isn’t) in which that took place on such a high stage.

Boeheim made Syracuse Basketball. I’ll pretty much debunk reasons contrary to that belief.
 

dasher

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Agreed. As i posted earlier Jim has never recovered from losing Hop. It would be like Johnny without Ed. Jim needed Hop and it looks like Hop needed Jim. Together they were a force. On their own they are both good but not close to what they were as a partnership.
I see it all the time in business and life and have personally lived it. I was at my best personally and professionally when my wife was alive. We made each other better. Im sure you and most on this board have all experienced what im talking about.
Jim and Hop were special. Its a shame that JB couldn't have finished his career with Hop at his side.
Hop keeps losing games, he just might
 

007

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College coaching legend, SU icon, and Hall of Famer.

His legend will grow with time, most especially among Orange fans everywhere.
 

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