Howard has to figure it out and fast.

[Bayside44]

The point guards played poorly, but a lot of people are too carried away in writing Howard off. College basketball's not about instant gratification (that's what got Kaleb Joseph run off in favor of his shorter and more defensively-clueless clone), it's about development. I can't imagine if these boards had been around when Autry and Hart were underclassmen.

My kingdom for Autry or Hart as underclassmen.

 

[cuseguy]

The point guards played poorly, but a lot of people are too carried away in writing Howard off. College basketball's not about instant gratification (that's what got Kaleb Joseph run off in favor of his shorter and more defensively-clueless clone), it's about development. I can't imagine if these boards had been around when Autry and Hart were underclassmen.

Howard just lacks something -- finesse, basketball IQ.

Sometimes certain things can't be taught.

 

[OttoMets]

Howard just lacks something -- finesse, basketball IQ.

Sometimes certain things can't be taught.

I agree with the second part (this is why I'm critical of White, and Cooney and Gbinije before him), but I'm not willing to write off Howard for those reasons yet. He's finishing terribly and making poor decisions, but it's too soon to characterize him as a lost cause.

My kingdom for Autry or Hart as underclassmen.

Who knows. Back when we ran offensive sets, point guards were in a position to look good. And those guys didn't more often than not. Until they did. Maybe Howard will, but this business of replacing our point guard every season because he's not good is part of what's killing this program.

 

[pfister1]

Couldn't agree more; I appreciate Gillon's effort and IQ, but what in the world was this staff thinking forcing Joseph out for a smaller and less experienced kid who's only going to spend a year here? Total bonehead move.

I don't think they forced KJ out for JG, or am I missing something? KJ left after he got buried on the bench and was left for dead in mid February.

 

[OttoMets]

I don't think they forced KJ out for JG, or am I missing something? KJ left after he got buried on the bench and was left for dead in mid February.

No, it's not quite like I put it. One poster claimed in summer 2015 that the die was cast and the staff had quit on Joseph (turned out that he was right, and that's how it ended up playing out). So they did force him out, but for no one in particular. Gillon was someone who ended up being available, I guess, and the staff thought he'd fill some needs.

Seemed like he would, but things aren't looking great right now - the learning curve is steep and Gillon's game seems to suffer against teams with size and talent. Not sure we wouldn't have been better off with the kid who's played here and could be playing for us beyond this season, too. That assumes that the staff chose to develop Joseph last year rather than planning on a future without him, though.

 

[AZOrange]

My kingdom for Autry or Hart as underclassmen.

Speaking of Autry...can someone tell me who he's always freaking out on when on the Bench? He's always looking to his left. Looks like he's yelling at JB...I know he's not

 

[weepeel]

If Gillon stopped would stop making those out of control drives he would be a decent spark off the bench and actually has a nice three ball stroke....meanwhile Frank Howard is 6'4'' and is currently making Paul Harris look like John Stockton

 

[Ghost]

The point guards played poorly, but a lot of people are too carried away in writing Howard off. College basketball's not about instant gratification (that's what got Kaleb Joseph run off in favor of his shorter and more defensively-clueless clone), it's about development. I can't imagine if these boards had been around when Autry and Hart were underclassmen.

I didn't read the board much in the off-season, but I'm surprised by all the "Howard is the most overhyped player ever," chatter I see thus far this year. The last I recall when the season ended the board had about 75% of people saying he could never play D1, and 25% said he was decent enough, maybe more. Whatever happened this summer to build him up must have been fantastically bizarre reading.

He's kind of where I expected him to be - a tad disappointing in some games, as Bilas and everyone else that has watched all of our games has mentioned he's fallen apart against better teams, but today he was just freaking abysmal and that was against very little pressure D. I'm not sure what's happened - he doesn't seem to read and deliver sharp passes so much as he seemed to do instinctively at times last year. Maybe we have less dynamic players so we're not getting good movement? Who knows. He sucked, sucked, sucked today though.

I have no idea what that was - and oddly, I felt like JB gave him a longer leash than normal, and I thought he was worse today than against SC and some other teams he really faltered against.

I don't envy JB with the rotation this year, not sure what I would do, but I'm not sure what's going on. I would sit White some more when he's gone cold, I would sit everyone today that thought taking a shot before Lydon touched the small was a terribly smart play.

I'm talking to you Gillon and Thompson. Dear god......calm yourselves down, one guy on the court is shooting 99.999999% from the field, you might want to at least get him a touch before you fire off a shot you've already missed a handful of times today.

 

[SUFan44]

BS.

Sorry but Gillon ain't close to living up to the hype you had for him. He's OK, but he's a bit piece on a high caliber team.

 

[OttoMets]

I didn't read the board much in the off-season, but I'm surprised by all the "Howard is the most overhyped player ever," chatter I see thus far this year. The last I recall when the season ended the board had about 75% of people saying he could never play D1, and 25% said he was decent enough, maybe more. Whatever happened this summer to build him up must have been fantastically bizarre reading.

He's kind of where I expected him to be - a tad disappointing in some games, as Bilas and everyone else that has watched all of our games has mentioned he's fallen apart against better teams, but today he was just freaking abysmal and that was against very little pressure D. I'm not sure what's happened - he doesn't seem to read and deliver sharp passes so much as he seemed to do instinctively at times last year. Maybe we have less dynamic players so we're not getting good movement? Who knows. He sucked, sucked, sucked today though.

I have no idea what that was - and oddly, I felt like JB gave him a longer leash than normal, and I thought he was worse today than against SC and some other teams he really faltered against.

I don't envy JB with the rotation this year, not sure what I would do, but I'm not sure what's going on. I would sit White some more when he's gone cold, I would sit everyone today that thought taking a shot before Lydon touched the small was a terribly smart play.

I'm talking to you Gillon and Thompson. Dear god...calm yourselves down, one guy on the court is shooting 99.999999% from the field, you might want to at least get him a touch before you fire off a shot you've already missed a handful of times today.

I might have contributed to that. Just a little, of course.

Yeah, it is totally bizarre reading now in light of how his play has turned south. That very thought crossed my mind when Frank dribbled through the whole defense, through the lane, and inexplicably made a beeline toward our bench and threw the ball out of bounds.

There's a pretty big gulf between praise some of us gave and Frank's current play.

 

[RF2044]

Sorry but Gillon ain't close to living up to the hype you had for him. He's OK, but he's a bit piece on a high caliber team.

Fine. And yet, he's averaging 10 ppg shooting 50% from the field. HOWARD is the one who ain't living up to the hype the BOARD had for him. Gillon has been disappointing in ways--like What was up with him getting to the rim numerous times and not finishing?--but he's been exponentially better as a lead guard than Howard against the better opponents we've faced [and he was lousy against USC].

Plain as day, to anyone who doesn't have an agenda.

 

[orangehomer]

BS.

BS what? are you going on the record to say that gillon is definitively better than joseph could have been as a senior?

 

[pearl31]

he's been exponentially better as a lead guard than Howard against the better opponents we've faced

not here to defend Howard because he's been wildly inconsistent at best and just plain bad against the good teams (horrible today) - but the quoted above is just plain hyperbole - aside from his couple of made 3s today and maybe one drive and dish, Gillon was no better as a lead guard than Howard

 

[RF2044]

not here to defend Howard because he's been wildly inconsistent at best and just plain bad against the good teams (horrible today) - but the quoted above is just plain hyperbole - aside from his couple of made 3s today and maybe one drive and dish, Gillon was no better as a lead guard than Howard

And yet, he's edging Howard out for playing time and is now starting.

Howard is my favorite player on the team. I don't root for one player to succeed and others to fail to prop up the player I prefer, like many do on this board. But Howard has only been effective against teams he can physically dominate / muscle taking it to the hoop. He's been dreadful orchestrating our anemic half court offense, which is why JB has been playing Gillon more in recent games. He's lost confidence in Howard. PT tells the story.

 

[orangehomer]

Fine. And yet, he's averaging 10 ppg shooting 50% from the field. HOWARD is the one who ain't living up to the hype the BOARD had for him. Gillon has been disappointing in ways--like What was up with him getting to the rim numerous times and not finishing?--but he's been exponentially better as a lead guard than Howard against the better opponents we've faced [and he was lousy against USC].

Plain as day, to anyone who doesn't have an agenda.

so are you still using stats from games against mid-majors to make your sorry point? gillon has stunk against any team that has a pulse, and yes, that includes today. if you want to throw howard under the bus, well, I am more inclined to give the true sophomore that was never supposed to be starting yet some benefit of the doubt versus the 5th year merc that was supposed to help us right away.

 

[Tony DeFranco]

We are in a lot of trouble going forward - we need a PG next year - Howard is not it - we have no one else

 

[SoBeCuse]

The point guards played poorly, but a lot of people are too carried away in writing Howard off. College basketball's not about instant gratification (that's what got Kaleb Joseph run off in favor of his shorter and more defensively-clueless clone), it's about development. I can't imagine if these boards had been around when Autry and Hart were underclassmen.

I get what you are saying and in theory you are right. I think very few teams do it that way well. Very rarely do you have a North Carolina and Villanova championship game teams led by mostly seniors. Those teams have acquired tons of studs without many recruiting misses and have enough talent around them to let the guards stay around and develop I think.

I just think the game has changed. Everyone reloads and rebuilds quickly in college hoops unless you are a specific system team or mid-major. It wasn't so long ago that UCLA had Zach Lavine, Kyle Anderson, and Shabazz Muhammad but they reload. That is just one of many teams. Arizona had a nice win in Houston vs aTm. They have lost a few one and dones lately. Most big boy programs are reloading quickly and aren't complaining.

 

[OttoMets]

I get what you are saying and in theory you are right. I think very few teams do it that way well. Very rarely do you have a North Carolina and Villanova championship game teams led by mostly seniors. Those teams have acquired tons of studs without many recruiting misses and have enough talent around them to let the guards stay around and develop I think.

I just think the game as changed. Everyone reloads and rebuilds quickly in college hoops unless you are a specific system team or mid-major. It wasn't so long ago that UCLA had Zach Lavine, Kyle Anderson, and Shabazz Muhammad but they reload. That is just one of many teams. Arizona had a nice win in Houston vs aTm. They have lost a few one and dones lately. Most big boy programs are reloading quickly and aren't complaining.

I agree, but if we're not able to reload with a great player, we'd better go the seniority route over the mediocre-average one-year player. I've got to think that Joseph would be playing as well as Gillon this season and could have been a contributor to a good team next year.

 

[SUFan44]

Fine. And yet, he's averaging 10 ppg shooting 50% from the field. HOWARD is the one who ain't living up to the hype the BOARD had for him. Gillon has been disappointing in ways--like What was up with him getting to the rim numerous times and not finishing?--but he's been exponentially better as a lead guard than Howard against the better opponents we've faced [and he was lousy against USC].

Plain as day, to anyone who doesn't have an agenda.

Not once did I mention Howard - I understand the thread is on him, but this is a digression.

Against the 4 teams that are actually decent competition (all of whom we have lost to), he's shooting 32% from the field. And has a less than stellar assist-to-turnover ratio (11:8), including five TO's against South Carolina where he looked completely lost.

He went 0-for against UConn and barely played. He was better against Wisconsin because their guards are system guys who aren't athletic.

Gillon is an OK player. He is not a big piece of a championship-caliber team. Sorry.

 

[SoBeCuse]

True. Who knows about Joseph. He's still the worst major D1 guard I have seen anywhere. He could not dribble and would fall down on breakaways by himself. At least Howard/Gillon haven't done that or havent been getting their pocket picked at half court like Joseph would.

 

[RF2044]

so are you still using stats from games against mid-majors to make your sorry point? gillon has stunk against any team that has a pulse, and yes, that includes today. if you want to throw howard under the bus, well, I am more inclined to give the true sophomore that was never supposed to be starting yet some benefit of the doubt versus the 5th year merc that was supposed to help us right away.

Who played better today, John Wooden? Because if your eye test tells you Frank Howard, then your eye test sucks. Mid majors? What were their respective stats today?

And spare me your dopey crusade against 5th year transfers. You've got to be the only college basketball "fan" who doesn't recognize that as an important new aspect of recruiting that has evolved in the game.

 

[RF2044]

Not once did I mention Howard - I understand the thread is on him, but this is a digression.

Against the 4 teams that are actually decent competition (all of whom we have lost to), he's shooting 32% from the field. And has a less than stellar assist-to-turnover ratio (11:8), including five TO's against South Carolina where he looked completely lost.

He went 0-for against UConn and barely played. He was better against Wisconsin because their guards are system guys who aren't athletic.

Gillon is an OK player. He is not a big piece of a championship-caliber team. Sorry.

Oh, I see. So it was just a potshot against me observing that Gillon was a better player than expected this summer. Got it.

There are lots of components of this team that aren't playing like pieces of a championship-caliber team. That includes White, Howard, Battle, and many others. And I am DEFINITELY sorry to acknowledge that.

We play like a group of individuals that aren't better than the sum of the parts. Which is too bad, because the team has a lot of talent. Something unfortunately is missing, however.

 

[skurey]

Can't we just agree Howard and Gillon have both been poor and less than expected by most?

 

[pearl31]

Can't we just agree Howard and Gillon have both been poor and less than expected by most?

and, alas, at least one of them has to play a bunch

 

[SoBeCuse]

Oh, I see. So it was just a potshot against me observing that Gillon was a better player than expected this summer. Got it.

There are lots of components of this team that aren't playing like pieces of a championship-caliber team. That includes White, Howard, and many others. And I am DEFINITELY sorry to acknowledge that.

We play like a group of individuals that aren't better than the sum of the parts. Which is too bad, because the team has a lot of talent. Something unfortunately is missing, however.

I think Gillon needs more time as lead guard. I think we are in agreement. Let Frank play more off the ball especially if his 3Pt shooting stays pretty good. Maybe he can make plays from the SG spot driving to the rim. I just don't know what the hell is going on out there. Frank today was just too cavalier and loosey-goosey with some terrible lazy passes. Gillon at least was playing downhill. Something this team badly needs. Sure it sucks he missed those bunnies but some were so close. Also it is not his fault when nobody is cutting to the rim when he is driving. Ugh.