I’m no basketball guru but..

[OrangePA]

I think our coaching staff fell in love with the model after 2003, they just missed out on the luck we had with all that size on the floor (Melo as a SF in College Basketball is simply ridiculous from a scoring/rebounding perspective).

I don't know how else to explain my point other than to suggest you go watch a week's worth of Big East basketball, which BTW is chock full of about 8 teams that would clean our clock (we did beat GTown, they are 1-10 in the Big East right now). Or watch the Villanova championship teams.

Those rosters simply could not play Boeheim's 2-3 zone defense. The traditional positions from a size/length perspective wouldn't have worked, BUT they could dog you all over the court and play through screens in M2M, AND they didn't waste offensive talent at a given position based on needing size/length to fill a spot on Defense.

Appreciate the convo, but there is just a dramatic difference in how Boeheim recruited the last decade vs. the teams that have zoomed ahead of us (I think he would agree BTW)

I just disagree.

In my opinion the characteristics of good defense are the same regardless of the system utilized

 

[gmoney44]

Need to hire Gene Hackman to instill some Hickory into these fellas

Gene Hackman would be saying my team is on the floor with nobody on the court with this group.

 

[kcsu]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

In what sense did JB recruit zone players or "athletes who can fit into a Zone" - what qualities fit that description?

Size, speed, quickness, agility, toughness, effort?

What exactly separates a "zone" player from a man-to-man player?

The zone requires speed and length at the forward spot. A player like Cole wasn't actually a good fit defensively for the zone.
Same with Jimmy B. They both had enough size but they couldn’t cover the wings well because of a lack of foot speed and length

 

[sabach]

Just disagree, potentially by a LOT

We were recruiting athletes who can fit into a Zone. Not basketball players.

And it really, really shows

There's a reason Syracuse has only won it all when it had a SF who happened to be a 6'9 All-American. Yes, he happened to be a top 2 player in the country, but he also rebounded big-time from the weak-side).

That's the Zone effect. In M2M you're blocking out your man.

Our defensive rebounding in 2003 was a big part of our success for sure.

 

[billsin01]

We have guys on this team with sufficient lateral quickness. Maybe they just don't drill them enough of the techniques of how to play proper man to man. I don't see many of these guys move their feet laterally to stay in front of defenders.

It took about 5 weeks before they began to understand how to swtich on a high pick & roll, and another 2 weeks beyond that for the forwards to understand that they had to guard the big diving to the basket, when the C stops the PG on a pick & roll.

So far, I am not very impressed with Autry's actual coaching skills. It's taking too long to implement things, and he's still not done. That's like a football coach not installing the whole offense until week 9 of the season.

The high ball screen defense has looked much better, as you point out, the past few games, but that was an ugly stretch for the first 15+ games. the hope is that Red is learning and that he can add talent to the roster. We’ll see.

And, as you also point out, the lateral quickness is fine for the most part. We simply don’t play defense as a team. It’s 5 individuals more often than not. That approach or mindset is doomed at this level, especially against disciplined, well-coached teams.

 

[DilemaCuse]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

In what sense did JB recruit zone players or "athletes who can fit into a Zone" - what qualities fit that description?

Size, speed, quickness, agility, toughness, effort?

What exactly separates a "zone" player from a man-to-man player?

Example, maybe Pascal Chuckwu. If it wasn't for the zone was he really good enough to play here?

 

[Cusefan0307]

Red’s biggest error was counting on Benny to be a main contributor, but I won’t fault him too much for that considering a lot of this board projected he would flourish under Red after struggling with JB for two years.

 

[SU91]

Example, maybe Pascal Chuckwu. If it wasn't for the zone was he really good enough to play here?

Yes. We recruited string bean after string bean with no real basketball skills. Those who couldn’t catch, dribble, post up, box out, grab strong rebounds, nothing. We also recruited nothing but combo guards who couldn’t distribute or run a team. Interestingly, our earlier 2-3 teams had basketball players playing zone (think Wallace or CJ Fair) whereas our later teams had players designed for the 2-3 playing basketball (long lanky and unskilled)

 

[crv1728]

Yes. We recruited string bean after string bean with no real basketball skills. Those who couldn’t catch, dribble, post up, box out, grab strong rebounds, nothing. We also recruited nothing but combo guards who couldn’t distribute or run a team. Interestingly, our earlier 2-3 teams had basketball players playing zone (think Wallace or CJ Fair) whereas our later teams had players designed for the 2-3 playing basketball (long lanky and unskilled)

Exactly! And going back to the Villanova championship teams’ makeup, would Jay Wright have ever considered giving Hima a scholarship?

 

[SU91]

Exactly! And going back to the Villanova championship teams’ makeup, would Jay Wright have ever considered giving Hima a scholarship?

No way. Our recruiting tanked over the last ten years. No denying it.

 

[OrangePA]

Just disagree, potentially by a LOT

We were recruiting athletes who can fit into a Zone. Not basketball players.

And it really, really shows

There's a reason Syracuse has only won it all when it had a SF who happened to be a 6'9 All-American. Yes, he happened to be a top 2 player in the country, but he also rebounded big-time from the weak-side).

That's the Zone effect. In M2M you're blocking out your man.

The reason we have not played well is because we don’t have enough good players.

If we had another player like Carmelo we would win no matter what defense we might run.

John Chaney’s teams at Temple rebounded well playing a match up zone which is pretty much what JB ran.

A match up zone shares the same principles as a good help out man to man defense.

 

[Orangeman]

The reason we have not played well is because we don’t have enough good players.

If we had another player like Carmelo we would win no matter what defense we might run.

John Chaney’s teams at Temple rebounded well playing a match up zone which is pretty much what JB ran.

A match up zone shares the same principles as a good help out man to man defense.

A million percent agree...

Find me a video of a Syracuse basketball player boxing out in the last 10 years and I'll provide some reward I haven't contemplated yet...

 

[STEVEHOLT]

Yes. We recruited string bean after string bean with no real basketball skills. Those who couldn’t catch, dribble, post up, box out, grab strong rebounds, nothing. We also recruited nothing but combo guards who couldn’t distribute or run a team. Interestingly, our earlier 2-3 teams had basketball players playing zone (think Wallace or CJ Fair) whereas our later teams had players designed for the 2-3 playing basketball (long lanky and unskilled)

We also played a ton of man defense. Full time zone defense didn’t kick in until the mid to late 90s I believe.

 

[J-Rock 3838]

It's time to gut the roster. Bring in/back
Moore, Starling, Westry, Copeland, Cuffe, Bell, Brown, Freeman. The rest should go find another school. SU needs to hit the portal hard and find a pure point guard, a shooter that can play on the wing, and 2 bigs that aren't tall lanky useless beanpoles. I know it's easier said than done but the team needs to be better at shooting/rebounding/low post offense moving forward.

 

[djcon57]

The reason we have not played well is because we don’t have enough good players.

If we had another player like Carmelo we would win no matter what defense we might run.

John Chaney’s teams at Temple rebounded well playing a match up zone which is pretty much what JB ran.

A match up zone shares the same principles as a good help out man to man defense.

John Chaney hasn't coached in 18 years and sadly has been dead for 3. So I'm not sure what relevance that has in basketball in 2024.

Shooters are now camped out 3 to 4 across the 3 point line when teams play zone. They wasn't necessarily true in 2003.

Wanna know what that does to the forwards? It brings them out away from the basket

Guess what that does to rebounding?

When I watch other NCAA games, wanna know how many I watch play 100% zone?

I'm not saying the players are or are not good enough. I'm saying the zone isn't the answer to the problem.