I have to ask

[CousCuse]

"Enraged Duke team"

C'mon, man...

Engorged. Better for you.

 

[samspann1]

Engorged. Better for you.

uh...no.

 

[IthacaMatt]

An average Syracuse team would be in second place in this garbage conference. The coach is not producing like he did his first 4 decades on the job.

The coach hasn't won 20 games in 8 years, after doing it almost every year in the 40 years before that. That's why there are some of the negative posts.

Some of the others question him playing both his sons so many minutes, and how so many talented guys have left the team in recent years.

In the face of no real changes, and no clear pathway to getting back to where we are accustomed to being as a program, people are just throwing up their hands. Frankly, I think this place is quite civil compared to how people are really feeling, what you would encounter if you watched a typical game in a bar.

 

[Orangello]

Point being, the enemy of this program isn’t mean, negative, snarky people.. It’s apathy.

I would respectfully disagree. The real enemy of this program is hubris IMHO.

 

[kcsu]

It could be worse.. This is one of the first time I’ve looked at this board in weeks. First time I’ve posted anywhere on here aside from the Bills thread.

I just don’t care right now. This isn’t a LAMP.. who cares if im not posting.. Point being, the enemy of this program isn’t mean, negative, snarky people.. It’s apathy.

Spot on.

 

[HOFCeluck]

The real enemy of this program was the friends we made along the way.


imo

 

[Day2]

The coach hasn't won 20 games in 8 years, after doing it almost every year in the 40 years before that. That's why there are some of the negative posts.

Some of the others question him playing both his sons so many minutes, and how so many talented guys have left the team in recent years.

In the face of no real changes, and no clear pathway to getting back to where we are accustomed to being as a program, people are just throwing up their hands. Frankly, I think this place is quite civil compared to how people are really feeling, what you would encounter if you watched a typical game in a bar.

We won 20 games three years ago. And 23 the year before.

 

[Orangezoo]

We won 20 games three years ago. And 23 the year before.

He is referring to the regular season. Each you reference include ACCT and NCAAT or NIT. 20 wins was always our marker for the regular season not including the tourneys.

 

[Bayside44]

He is referring to the regular season. Each you reference include ACCT and NCAAT or NIT. 20 wins was always our marker for the regular season not including the tourneys.

Our cupcakes and tomato cans aren't what they used to be either.

 

[Orangezoo]

Our cupcakes and tomato cans aren't what they used to be either.

This is true- we also aren't beating the fringe NCAA teams in the non conference though. We have many more losses to the tomato cans of late too.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Our cupcakes and tomato cans aren't what they used to be either.

From 1980 to 2014 we finished .500 or worse in conference play 5 times.

From 2015 to now we have already done it 4 times and this year looks like it may be number 5.

 

[Alsacs]

From 1980 to 2014 we finished .500 or worse in conference play 5 times.

From 2015 to now we have already done it 4 times and this year looks like it may be number 5.

2017-2018 going 11-2 in the nonconference allowed us to actually make the tournament.
Of course we went 8-10 in ACC play and lost the conference tournament as well.

We have been going 9-4 or 10-3 in the nonconference mixed with 9-9 in conference play since 2015.

Our problems are we are just mediocre and the HC hasn’t recruited a complete team since 2014.

 

[Bayside44]

From 1980 to 2014 we finished .500 or worse in conference play 5 times.

From 2015 to now we have already done it 4 times and this year looks like it may be number 5.

There are next to no baked in wins anymore. I don't disagree with your point, but multiple things can be true as well.

 

[Eric15]

There are next to no baked in wins anymore. I don't disagree with your point, but multiple things can be true as well.

But wasn't this year's "cupcake" slate of Lafayette, Colgate, Cornell, Brown, Lehigh fairly comparable to other years? Intuitively that doesn't feel much different than our traditional layup games. Honestly you could even add Georgetown to that group, as they're 6-12 with an NET ranking of 199.

 

[Cusefan0307]

There are next to no baked in wins anymore. I don't disagree with your point, but multiple things can be true as well.

I agree with that and if we go 9-2 in the OOC that's fine, but it's been worse than that. It's the losses to Georgetown, St Johns, Colgate, Old Dominion, St. Bonaventure, Buffalo, and UConn when they were awful that are happening way too much.

And we used to be the premier school in these Thanksgiving conference tournaments that other teams feared. Now we are getting wiped off the floor at these events.

 

[Alsacs]

But wasn't this year's "cupcake" slate of Lafayette, Colgate, Cornell, Brown, Lehigh fairly comparable to other years? Intuitively that doesn't feel much different than our traditional layup games. Honestly you could even add Georgetown to that group, as they're 6-12 with an NET ranking of 199.

The only change to our schedule haa been going from 13 nonconference games to 11.

Because the conference schedules went to 20 games.

When we were good we were playing 1 tough nonconference game home/home still.

That is the Big Ten game now.

Playing Georgetown shouldn’t be 50/50 in terms of winning.
They suck.

Our issues are our talent.
The ACC isn’t loaded harder than the old Big East.
It’s been top heavy. We have the cupcakes in conference play its why we haven’t bottomed out.

Our HC isn’t bringing in the same talent and is over relying on inferior players than what we had in the past.
We are white knuckling and finally this year the defense just is so bad it’s not going to happen.

 

[DoctorBombay]

But wasn't this year's "cupcake" slate of Lafayette, Colgate, Cornell, Brown, Lehigh fairly comparable to other years? Intuitively that doesn't feel much different than our traditional layup games. Honestly you could even add Georgetown to that group, as they're 6-12 with an NET ranking of 199.

Folks used criticize JB about scheduling “cupcakes” but sometimes that label s in the eye of the beholder. You still need to beat Sandz d cupcakes- and we were very good at doing that over the years.
However, every loss to a Buffalo, Colgate, or very bad St John’s and GTown teams, was an indication of the erosion of the program.
Suddenly those we started missing it n those “layup games”, leaving room for lower tier ACC teams to beat us as well. 2-3 w t losses and viola…back on the bubble again!

 

[Bayside44]

But wasn't this year's "cupcake" slate of Lafayette, Colgate, Cornell, Brown, Lehigh fairly comparable to other years? Intuitively that doesn't feel much different than our traditional layup games. Honestly you could even add Georgetown to that group, as they're 6-12 with an NET ranking of 199.

Three Bahama games, Indiana, Villanova, (and I am loathe to include Georgetown in that group).

I randomly typed in the 2004 season, the one OOC game of note was Okie State.

2013 we played on a boat, at Arkansas, and somehow lost to Temple at MSG.

And there are no USF's and DePaul's out there. I get Pitt stinks and BC might be cashing checks but everyone else competes.

Doesn't mean our recruiting and retention are where they need to be, it's not.

 

[Day2]

He is referring to the regular season. Each you reference include ACCT and NCAAT or NIT. 20 wins was always our marker for the regular season not including the tourneys.

Was it? Why wouldn’t tournament games count?

My freshman year (1994-95), we won 20 games and needed one NCAA tournament game to get there. I don’t remember anyone making the distinction or stating the season was unsuccessful. Not one student. Nothing from the DO (and Thamel was on staff) or the PS.

Now my junior year was another story. We needed to beat FSU in the NIT to reach 20 wins and it didn’t happen. That’s when people started talking about failing to get 20 wins, not before.

There seems to be this push with some fans (not necessarily you, Zoo) to omit actual results in order to make a point. Like going 25-0. Or making the Final Four and a pair of Sweet 16s. And yet, these same people will argue we missed the tournament in a year where the tournament didn’t exist.

I think the points can be made without skewing the results.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I wouldn't call anyone here a 'troll', (but then I don't see the deleted posts. Certain fans have points of view they filter the facts through but they aren't saying negative things just to get a rise out of people for their amusement. It's just fans expressing themselves. When things are going well, you could describe this board as a bunch of pollyannas.

In a city like Syracuse, we engage in what i call 'existential rooting'. In the big cities, they know who they are and so does everyone else. they are on the amp and a big part of it. What they want from their sports teams, (who tend to be professionals: highly paid adults), is that their team live up to their image of their city. If it says "New York" on your jersey, you are supposed to be in first place. If it says "Chicago, you're supposed to the toughest team in the league. if it says "Los Angeles", you're supposed to put on a show.

It's different in Syracuse. Before the happy confluence of the Jim Boeheim Era, ESPN, the Big East and the Dome, whenever our burg got mentioned in the national media, we were always 'Syracuse, New York', to distinguish us from small towns in Ohio, Indiana, Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska, Utah or maybe the one in Sicily. When those four things came together, we became "The Cuse" and it's Syracuse basketball, football and to a smaller extent, (because we dominated the sport so much), lacrosse that put us on the map. Minor league baseball and hockey teams can't do that. And we want our SU teams to keep us on the map. First the football teams slide away, then the lacrosse program and now the basketball program seems to be eroding and we can feel ourselves becoming irrelevant. And we blame the people who, in our view, allowed this to happen and aren't doing enough to change it.

That's why we get excited when the lacrosse program hires the games greatest offensive and defensive players to coach the team, (even though they won't be playing for it), or when the football coach retools his staff with people who have been successful elsewhere. And its why people dream of the next basketball coach being a big-name hire that will turn everything around, (as Greg Robinson was supposed to do for the football team).

The only thing that bugs me is when people take the attitude that they want to win more than the coaches and players do. When you think of all they do to prepare for games - the weight room, thousands or shots, drills and scrimmages, on top of a course load and other commitments, and compare it to what fans do to prepare for games, which is likely to be pulling off a flip-top to a beer can, it puts things in better perspective.

Brilliantly stated.

 

[Day2]

But wasn't this year's "cupcake" slate of Lafayette, Colgate, Cornell, Brown, Lehigh fairly comparable to other years? Intuitively that doesn't feel much different than our traditional layup games. Honestly you could even add Georgetown to that group, as they're 6-12 with an NET ranking of 199.

Georgetown wasn’t scheduled as a cupcake. Brown replaced Lehigh. Four cupcakes isn’t a lot.

 

[Alsacs]

Three Bahama games, Indiana, Villanova, (and I am loathe to include Georgetown in that group).

I randomly typed in the 2004 season, the one OOC game of note was Okie State.

2013 we played on a boat, at Arkansas, and somehow lost to Temple at MSG.

And there are no USF's and DePaul's out there. I get Pitt stinks and BC might be cashing checks but everyone else competes.

Doesn't mean our recruiting and retention are where they need to be, it's not.

We always play a holiday tournament now we are just losing multiple games at these events.

Its been losing to Georgetown and mid majors we never did before.

Our schedule isn’t the issue.
Its talent on the roster.

Syracuse shouldn’t be losing to VCU, Pennsylvania State, Oklahoma State, Oregon, UConn every single holiday tournament.
Losing to Kansas happens.

Those losses plus losing to Old Diminion, Buffalo, St. Bonaventure, and Georgetown make our nonconferences not what they used to be.

Then we go 9-9 in ACC play.

 

[Orangezoo]

Was it? Why wouldn’t tournament games count?

My freshman year (1994-95), we won 20 games and needed one NCAA tournament game to get there. I don’t remember anyone making the distinction or stating the season was unsuccessful. Not one student. Nothing from the DO (and Thamel was on staff) or the PS.

Now my junior year was another story. We needed to beat FSU in the NIT to reach 20 wins and it didn’t happen. That’s when people started talking about failing to get 20 wins, not before.

There seems to be this push with some fans (not necessarily you, Zoo) to omit actual results in order to make a point. Like going 25-0. Or making the Final Four and a pair of Sweet 16s. And yet, these same people will argue we missed the tournament in a year where the tournament didn’t exist.

I think the points can be made without skewing the results.

I actually broke down our seasons many months ago - don't recall the thread. It's really not about the individual seasons. I remember the one offs we had in the 90s and 2000s. The point is really about the current stretch of mediocre regular seasons that rely on being on the right side of the bubble.

So the 20 wins in the regular season are part of the fact of being ranked those years, having nba first round picks, having top notch recruiting classes, being strong in the non conference and being a 6 seed or better in the tourney.

The bubble survival and tourney runs are a good thing- but they are also not a cure for the trends. Many of us have been pointing to the season we are in right now being just a matter of time and here it is. Under .500 the latest into a season under JB. So it's a holistic picture thing. It's been building or regressing to this point for a while.

 

[Orangezoo]

Georgetown wasn’t scheduled as a cupcake. Brown replaced Lehigh. Four cupcakes isn’t a lot.

They then are a tomato can to quote Bayside. A game vs a weak non conference opponent that wasn't scheduled as an easy win but none the less should have been.

Colgate, Gtown, VCU- games you should not lose and would not if the program was near where it should be. Then conference play- UVA, Pitt and at Miami with a big lead. That is 15-5 likely ranked and looking at seeding.

 

[Bayside44]

Folks used criticize JB about scheduling “cupcakes” but sometimes that label s in the eye of the beholder. You still need to beat Sandz d cupcakes- and we were very good at doing that over the years.
However, every loss to a Buffalo, Colgate, or very bad St John’s and GTown teams, was an indication of the erosion of the program.
Suddenly those we started missing it n those “layup games”, leaving room for lower tier ACC teams to beat us as well. 2-3 w t losses and viola…back on the bubble again!

We always play a holiday tournament now we are just losing multiple games at these events.

Its been losing to Georgetown and mid majors we never did before.

Our schedule isn’t the issue.
Its talent on the roster.

Syracuse shouldn’t be losing to VCU, Pennsylvania State, Oklahoma State, Oregon, UConn every single holiday tournament.
Losing to Kansas happens.

Those losses plus losing to Old Diminion, Buffalo, St. Bonaventure, and Georgetown make our nonconferences not what they used to be.

Then we go 9-9 in ACC play.

Our schedule is better and our talent / talent retention is worse.