I like DM

[kingottoiii]

Not saying that this is a good thing for marrone... but the team seemed to quit on him after the UCONN game.

Hogwash. If that were the case we would not have had the ball under 4 mins to play with a chance to win vs Pitt. Especially after being down 10-0 to start the game.

 

[Pyle]

Don't buy the team quitting thing either. We were NEVER that good to start. 21-14 over RI should have told you EVERYTHING you needed to know about this team, letting Tulane almost come back in spectacular fashion, the Wake miracle, the Toledo miracle...as OrangeinPA puts it..."UGH"

 

[kingottoiii]

Don't buy the team quitting thing either. We were NEVER that good to start. 21-14 over RI should have told you EVERYTHING you needed to know about this team, letting Tulane almost come back in spectacular fashion, the Wake miracle, the Toledo miracle...as OrangeinPA puts it..."UGH"

Wake and Toledo likely end up over .500 in the BE this year. Both were good Ws.

 

[Pyle]

Wake and Toledo likely end up over .500 in the BE this year. Both were good Ws.

I don't disagree with that at all, perhaps I wasn't being clear. I just meant it was a miracle we won either game. Toledo was the point heard round the world. And Wake was killing us until their QB went down, and not like the backup was bad, he wasn't but their coaches suddenly turtled up big time and just tried to hold on to the win. The backup was still beating us, but the coaches took it out of his hands. The fact we won either game is a miracle. Then when you look at the RI and Tulane games, it becomes VERY apparent that WV just laid a big ole egg against us and it was a complete fluke game. The other 4 wins were all nail bitters and 2 of them we shouldn't have won at all.

 

[Pyle]

This discussion comes up about once a week. The bottomline is;

1. It is a fact we were 1-6 in the BE.
2. It is a very strong opinion shared by 99% of the free world that the 1-6 came in the weakest BCS conference in the country.
3. A pretty strong argument can be made that this years BE may be the weakest BCS conference ever.

There is no hiding from the fact that we were 1-6 in a horrible conference.

PS: I do NOT believe DM should be fired and should see his 5 year contract through completion.

What if Nassib is still the entrenched starter and we finish 4-8 ranked last in the BE again? Would you really support a 5th year and contract extension at that point? That's the point to my whole post. I never said fire him now, but their needs to be heat. What does it say to potential recruits and fair-weather fans about the university's commitment to the football team to sit on a sub .500 coach, who's only winning season was with the previous pariah's recruits?

And I bring up the fair-weather fans because they are the ones who can take us from 38k per game to 45k per game. Sucks to give them so much pull, but it is reality. Everyone on this board is gonna be in our seats next year, same as this one, all hoping for the best. It's the apathetic fan base that can make a difference to recruits. At least here in Syracuse. I'm sure Wolverines and Buckeyes don't give a 2nd thought to the fairweathers, but here in the world of the no sell-out carrier dome, that is exactly who the university needs to attract to the games, not us. They already have us.

 

[kingottoiii]

Louisville was 2-12 in the BE the two years before Strong took over. They had a lot of Petrino kids defect while Kragthorpe was there, and Kragthorpe didn't leave Strong with much to play with. Which is why most of the players getting PT this year were kids that Strong recruited. They haven't sucked for as long as SU has. And they have nicer bling. But in terms of talent on the team, Marrone took over a better situation.

Adding to the above

UL O starters in Year 2 that were Kragthorpe guys: 4.5 (3 OLmen, Chichester, and Anderson who splits time at RB)
UL D Starters in Year 2 that were Kragthorpe guys: 5 (2 DL, 2 LBs, and 1 DB)

SU O starters in Year 3 that were GRob guys: 6
SU D starters in Year 3 that were GRob guys: 3

So in year 3 we are using more O starters than UL is in year 2. That is even greater when you consider that for OLmen it is harder for a Strong kid to get on the field. Strong has ONE skill guy who starts yet we have FIVE in year 3.

 

[javadoc]

If Strong were at SU and Marrone at UL, we would have better recruits than UL.

We disagree on that. No way to prove it, of course, so there it is.

 

[kingottoiii]

What if Nassib is still the entrenched starter and we finish 4-8 ranked last in the BE again? Would you really support a 5th year and contract extension at that point? That's the point to my whole post. I never said fire him now, but their needs to be heat. What does it say to potential recruits and fair-weather fans about the university's commitment to the football team to sit on a sub .500 coach, who's only winning season was with the previous pariah's recruits?

We should give him a 2 year extension during Spring ball. First it allows him to coach in year 5 with a team that is totally his. Second and most importantly it allows him to recruit this year. If SU does not make a commitment now, it will be very difficult for Marrone to recruit. And supposedly he has finally gotten some inroads to HSs and is poised for a decent class. The risk of losing that class is greater than the risk of adding 2 years to his contract. Lets extend him then see what type of class he pulls in next year. Then year 5 becomes the deadline year for Marrone. Fail and your fired. This of course is assuming next year isn't a breakout year.

 

[javadoc]

Adding to the above...

So did Marrone inherit a team with better talent than UL had, or has Strong recruited over the guys he inherited more quickly than Marrone is doing?

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Do you have the link Zach?

Thats a joke... and im sorry. just confused why you wouldnt link it.

Who's Zach?

 

[OttoinGrotto]

selection bias

in the preseason, you get a lot more "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all"

but there was a lot of people thinking 5-7. mostly based on nassib and the departed defense

Not my fault others couldn't sack up and put up what they really predicted.

 

[CusefanATL]

Who's Zach?

Tomaselli... lol.

There were stats and generalizations being spit out with nothing to back it up.

It was a terrible joke. Like i said though, if you actually went back to research - I just couldnt understand why you wouldn't post the link.

 

[CusefanATL]

Not my fault others couldn't sack up and put up what they really predicted.

but also has nothing to do with "being worse than advertised" which was the spark to this whole debate.

 

[kingottoiii]

So did Marrone inherit a team with better talent than UL had, or has Strong recruited over the guys he inherited more quickly than Marrone is doing?

IMO it is both. The GRob kids that Marrone has are better than the Kragthorpe kids Strong has IMO. Marrone hasn't been able to recruit over GRob guys in 3 years, while Strong has recruited over Kragthorpe guys in two years. Remember Kragthorpe was 2-12 in the BE his last two years. So it wasn't hard for Strong to recruit over those kids.

That being said a team dominated by Strong's kids went 5-2 this year in the BE while GRob/Marrone kids went 1-6.

 

[rrlbees]

So did Marrone inherit a team with better talent than UL had, or has Strong recruited over the guys he inherited more quickly than Marrone is doing?

I don't know if an exact answer can be given but they were comparable. strong has done a better job recruiting, far better as shown by king in his breakout. and you can't say he recruited better because lville was in a winning situation. they sucked just as bad only winning a couple games plus grob beat them. also, as to talent, 5 grob kids just made all big east.

 

[javadoc]

I don't know if an exact answer can be given but they were comparable. strong has done a better job recruiting, far better as shown by king in his breakout. and you can't say he recruited better because lville was in a winning situation. they sucked just as bad only winning a couple games plus grob beat them. also, as to talent, 5 grob kids just made all big east.

Agree that a lot of this is hand-waving and unprovable, but it is my belief also that we were comparable in talent and Strong is out-recruiting us. Louisville had a couple down years but they can point to more recent BCS bowl success than we can, and I still think if you asked recruits about both schools, they would say Louisville, yeah, but Syracuse, are you kidding me?

Who votes on the All-BE? Is it the coaches, or sportswriters? IMO we had some solid guys, but the spaces between them were filled with (in some cases) huge holes that you can't cover over. If we had solid guys, not even all-BE types, in place of Hay, Chibane, and Nassib, I think we would have been much much better off this year. I would even take Nassib if he could just get the gosh dang deep ball within 5 yards of the WR. That one weakness alone is enough to make me say it's time to move on. I'm done, tired of it.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Tomaselli... lol.

There were stats and generalizations being spit out with nothing to back it up.

It was a terrible joke. Like i said though, if you actually went back to research - I just couldnt understand why you wouldn't post the link.

Well, I'm pretty lazy. I didn't actually go back and do research. I just knew from the update that I was one of three that predicted 6 and 6 and closest to winning the 100 bucks.

I think I'm still confused to your point though. The preseason progs didn't anticipate a step back, they pretty much all expected a step forward. If people want to make the argument that people wanted to make optimistic posts I guess that's ok, but I think people generally believed we were moving forward at the start of the season more than at any point during the season. Sure, some people went all in after WFVU (Millhouse) but a lot of people were concerned by our early season performance, even in wins.

 

[GoSU96]

I don't know if an exact answer can be given but they were comparable. strong has done a better job recruiting, far better as shown by king in his breakout. and you can't say he recruited better because lville was in a winning situation. they sucked just as bad only winning a couple games plus grob beat them. also, as to talent, 5 grob kids just made all big east.

You really think Lville was in the depths that SU was? You people are nuts.

They went 6-6, 5-7, 4-8 under Kragthorpe, 15-21. Before that 9-3 in 2005 and 12-1 in 2006.

How is that close to 1-10, 4-8, 2-10, and 3-9? (Hint: It's not, unless 10-37 is "comparable" to 15-21.)

For fans of yards. Lville under Kragthorpe: '07 Total Off - 6th, Total Def - 84th, '08 Off - 45th, Def - 70th, '09 Off - 91st, Def - 65th.

SU (as a reminder): '06 Off - 110th, Def - 107th, '07 Off - 114th, Def 111th, '08 Off - 114th, Def 101st.

Yep, Lville "sucked just as bad" Without a doubt Strong and Marrone picked up programs in the same situation and comparable, and hell Marrone had MORE talent.

Here's L'ville's record to date the last two years 14-11, here's SU's 13-12.

Wow what a difference.

 

[GoSU96]

Marrone hasn't been able to recruit over GRob guys in 4 years, while Strong has recruited over Kragthorpe guys in two years.

Other than the entire defense (DE 50/50 rotation not withstanding) and the offensive line you're right. Damn him for playing guys with 3 and 4 years of playing experience over freshman at the skill positions, what could he be thinking?

 

[rrlbees]

You really think Lville was in the depths that SU was? You people are nuts.

They went 6-6, 5-7, 4-8 under Kragthorpe, 15-21. Before that 9-3 in 2005 and 12-1 in 2006.

How is that close to 1-10, 4-8, 2-10, and 3-9? (Hint: It's not, unless 10-37 is "comparable" to 15-21.)

For fans of yards. Lville under Kragthorpe: '07 Total Off - 6th, Total Def - 84th, '08 Off - 45th, Def - 70th, '09 Off - 91st, Def - 65th.

SU (as a reminder): '06 Off - 110th, Def - 107th, '07 Off - 114th, Def 111th, '08 Off - 114th, Def 101st.

Yep, Lville "sucked just as bad" Without a doubt Strong and Marrone picked up programs in the same situation and comparable, and hell Marrone had MORE talent.

Here's L'ville's record to date the last two years 14-11, here's SU's 13-12.

Wow what a difference.

overall record where sos may come into play. look at the big east where everything is the same. lville and su were both 2-12 the last 2 years prior to marrone and strong. this year, the were 5-2 and tied for 1st in the worst bcs conference. the showed up and improved over the year since they had bad losses early. we were 1-6 and got worse. wow, that is a difference.

we just had 7 guys named all b.e. lville had a total of 2. 5 of our 7 are grob recruits. 1 of 2 are krag recruits.

 

[rrlbees]

Other than the entire defense (DE 50/50 rotation not withstanding) and the offensive line you're right. Damn him for playing guys with 3 and 4 years of playing experience over freshman at the skill positions, what could he be thinking?

changed your opinion? when i said to you that there were 3 straight classes with little talent that grob had to deal with from the p years, your response was that if they were so bad grob should sit them all and play the young kids that were fr/soph (i agreed with you btw).

 

[GoSU96]

overall record where sos may come into play. look at the big east where everything is the same. lville and su were both 2-12 the last 2 years prior to marrone and strong. this year, the were 5-2 and tied for 1st in the worst bcs conference. the showed up and improved over the year since they had bad losses early. we were 1-6 and got worse. wow, that is a difference.

we just had 7 guys named all b.e. lville had a total of 2. 5 of our 7 are grob recruits. 1 of 2 are krag recruits.

And how does any of that address the state of the programs that each took over?

If you think that Marrone was handed a same or better situation than Strong, be my guest.

You're also out of your mind if you believe that.

 

[rrlbees]

And how does any of that address the state of the programs that each took over?

If you think that Marrone was handed a same or better situation than Strong, be my guest.

You're also out of your mind if you believe that.

how do you explain 2-12 for both if lville was in such better shape? and my post addresses the state of the programs better than an opinion. same conference records for 2 years running. more of one former coaches recruits on all b.e. than the other former coach. we are 1-6 they are 5-2. if lville was in such great shape before strong, just how do they go 1-6, 1-6? they were all young? ok, then how do we crush them on this years all b.e.? lville might have been in marginally better shape at best. but not 5-2/1-6 better. they got better as the year went along, we got worse. that can't be brushed off either. bottom-line is that i like marrone and i believe he will get it going and eventually win. but he failed this year plain and simple. and if he doesn't figure out how to recruit better, he could continue to fail.

 

[GoSU96]

changed your opinion? when i said to you that there were 3 straight classes with little talent that grob had to deal with from the p years, your response was that if they were so bad grob should sit them all and play the young kids that were fr/soph (i agreed with you btw).

That's what Marrone did, did you read the post?

Almost the entire defense, other than the DE's, and the entire OL. It's what he did with Speller. Marrone DID turn over the roster. You do remember 30 something kids leaving when he took over, right.
Out of the graduating players, you do realize (and injuries had something to do with it) Allport, Lepak, Lowery, Haney, Kimmel played very little, to no snaps all year.

Out of the graduating seniors that played 6 are Marrone recruits, 5 are Robinson.

 

[GoSU96]

how do you explain 2-12 for both if lville was in such better shape? and my post addresses the state of the programs better than an opinion. same conference records for 2 years running. more of one former coaches recruits on all b.e. than the other former coach. we are 1-6 they are 5-2. if lville was in such great shape before strong, just how do they go 1-6, 1-6? they were all young? ok, then how do we crush them on this years all b.e.? lville might have been in marginally better shape at best. but not 5-2/1-6 better. they got better as the year went along, we got worse. that can't be brushed off either. bottom-line is that i like marrone and i believe he will get it going and eventually win. but he failed this year plain and simple. and if he doesn't figure out how to recruit better, he could continue to fail.

Opinion?