I like DM

[kingottoiii]

Other than the entire defense (DE 50/50 rotation not withstanding) and the offensive line you're right. Damn him for playing guys with 3 and 4 years of playing experience over freshman at the skill positions, what could he be thinking?

You can't have it both ways. Either Marrone took over no talent and has done a poor job bringing in better kids, or Marrone took over decent talent. BTW 5 GRob kids just made All BE. That is almost as many Kragthorpe kids that are starting for UL.

 

[javadoc]

You can't have it both ways. Either Marrone took over no talent and has done a poor job bringing in better kids, or Marrone took over decent talent.

How about this: both schools had comparable talent, overall. Strong recruited guys who only needed a year or two in the program to jump over the guys ahead of them. Marrone has recruited guys who probably would need one more year to get ready, but in some cases due to roster turnover, has had to play those guys earlier than he would like.

The key is that Marrone has not done a poor job of bringing in better kids. He has done a "poor" job of bringing in kids who, as 1st- or 2nd-year players, are better than 4th- and 5th-year players.

 

[CusefanATL]

Well, I'm pretty lazy. I didn't actually go back and do research. I just knew from the update that I was one of three that predicted 6 and 6 and closest to winning the 100 bucks.

I think I'm still confused to your point though. The preseason progs didn't anticipate a step back, they pretty much all expected a step forward. If people want to make the argument that people wanted to make optimistic posts I guess that's ok, but I think people generally believed we were moving forward at the start of the season more than at any point during the season. Sure, some people went all in after WFVU (Millhouse) but a lot of people were concerned by our early season performance, even in wins.

I think we will agree to disagree... I think people may have been overly optimistic with the offense, but the defense was losing a ton. I honestly think most people talked about a step back or maybe a bowl game. But certainly not competing for a big east champ (wouldn't that be a tiny step up from last year?)

 

[OrangeAl]

Does Marrone's job depend on a head to head competition with Strong? No.
Has Doug made improvements in the SU program? Yes.
Did the finish to this season disappoint every SU fan? Yes.
Is next year really, really important for signs of progress? Yes.
Is everything else extraneous? Yes.

 

[Aweart23]

I don't know if an exact answer can be given but they were comparable. strong has done a better job recruiting, far better as shown by king in his breakout. and you can't say he recruited better because lville was in a winning situation. they sucked just as bad only winning a couple games plus grob beat them. also, as to talent, 5 grob kids just made all big east.

Bees

Maybe you should look back a little further than just the last guy...Smith and Petrino were 81-30 over 9 years and 9 straight bowl games. 1998- 2006... What was our record during that time frame? What was the support of the SU Administration and the AD during that time frame for our football program? Do we have a deep pocket like Papa John's that I don't know about?

To boil it down to Doug started more Grob Guys than Strong started Kragthorpe guys is a silly measuring stick. That does not even come close to reflecting the state of each program...one program, Louisville had 9 years on the way up, hit a speed bump in Kragthorpe,

The other program, Syracuse, on the way down, was driven into the ground by Grob, et al...

 

[kingottoiii]

Bees

Maybe you should look back a little further than just the last guy...Smith and Petrino were 81-30 over 9 years and 9 straight bowl games. 1998- 2006... What was our record during that time frame? What was the support of the SU Administration and the AD during that time frame for our football program? Do we have a deep pocket like Papa John's that I don't know about?

To boil it down to Doug started more Grob Guys than Strong started Kragthorpe guys is a silly measuring stick. That does not even come close to reflecting the state of each program...one program, Louisville had 9 years on the way up, hit a speed bump in Kragthorpe,

The other program, Syracuse, on the way down, was driven into the ground by Grob, et al...

You have to be joking. UL was good from 2004-06. Then they stunk from 2007-09. So these kids who Strong is recruiting had UL stinking while they were in HS.

 

[Aweart23]

You have to be joking. UL was good from 2004-06. Then they stunk from 2007-09. So these kids who Strong is recruiting had UL stinking while they were in HS.

Smith went
7-5, 7-5, 9-3, 11-2, 7-6, 1998- 2002

Petrino went
9-4, 11-1, 9-3, 12-1

NINE straight bowl games- Finished #13 in the polls in 2006- all along the way investing in the football program and building it- thats 81-30 over that time period- 1998-2006

We haven't been relevant since 1998 when McNabb left (yes we had one good year)- and previous administrations let football die on the vine- 52-55 over same period

to look at one little sliver of time, the three years of Kragethrope or Grob is silly, it tells you nothing about the health and foundation of the program. Louisville has been on the way up since 1998 and Syracuse on the way down..your crazy if you think anything else.

And measuring by how many of whose coaches players are starting three years later is :crazy:

 

[kingottoiii]

Smith went
7-5, 7-5, 9-3, 11-2, 7-6, 1998- 2002

Petrino went
9-4, 11-1, 9-3, 12-1

NINE straight bowl games- Finished #13 in the polls in 2006- all along the way investing in the football program and building it- thats 81-30 over that time period- 1998-2006

We haven't been relevant since 1998 when McNabb left (yes we had one good year)- and previous administrations let football die on the vine- 52-55 over same period

to look at one little sliver of time, the three years of Kragethrope or Grob is silly, it tells you nothing about the health and foundation of the program. Louisville has been on the way up since 1998 and Syracuse on the way down..your crazy if you think anything else.

And measuring by how many of whose coaches players are starting three years later is :crazy:

Did you start watching football in 2005? If not then you should know that comparing UL's records pre 2005 is silly.

BTW they never ranked higher than our 2001 season pre Petrino. Only once under Smith did they end the year ranked. The same year, 2001. Before Petrino they were like the Holtz ECU teams.

 

[rrlbees]

1998- 2006... What was our record during that time frame? .

Why only go back to 1998 to access 2011? We had a NC in 1959.

 

[Aweart23]

Did you start watching football in 2005? If not then you should know that comparing UL's records pre 2005 is silly.

BTW they never ranked higher than our 2001 season pre Petrino. Only once under Smith did they end the year ranked. The same year, 2001. Before Petrino they were like the Holtz ECU teams.

Exactly the point...they were GROWING the program from 1998 on...built new stadium in 1998 - $63m- 2006 they add onto the stadium- $72 m- they just opened a brand new indoor football facility-

The dome opened in 1980- I heard the Dome locker room got new 8-track tape players last year...Buzz Shaw wouldn't spring for them..

Rankings
2001- Syracuse #14 Lousivlle #17 We haven't been ranked since
2004 - Lousiville #6 final ranking
2006- Louisville #6 final ranking

the original post was some nonsense about Charlie Strong walking into a "rebuild" in Louisville which is a silly statement. Louisville has been building the program up since the mid 90's, spending money, hiring good coaches, moving up leagues, going to bowl games. They made one bad hire in Kragthorpe.

Compare what Lousiville has done since the mid- 90's to how Syracuse treated the football program- spend no money- no new facilities- P stopped recruiting- Grob hire- drive the fans away- haven't been ranked in 10 years ---10 YEARS

But yet you want to argue about how many Grob starters there are as opposed to how many Kragthorpe starters there are...stupid argument about nothing that has nothing to do with where the program was when Doug took over..

 

[Aweart23]

Why only go back to 1998 to access 2011? We had a NC in 1959.

Because I think (my personal opinion) somewhere in the mid-90's the wheels started coming off...the problems we have now, can be traced back to then. McNabb was a great pick up that masked the other problems for four years...

But look at what the two programs have done since then- one building, stadiums, additions, facilities...the other one sitting around while Rome burns

 

[kingottoiii]

Exactly the point...they were GROWING the program from 1998 on...built new stadium in 1998 - $63m- 2006 they add onto the stadium- $72 m- they just opened a brand new indoor football facility-

The dome opened in 1980- I heard the Dome locker room got new 8-track tape players last year...Buzz Shaw wouldn't spring for them..

Rankings
2001- Syracuse #14 Lousivlle #17 We haven't been ranked since
2004 - Lousiville #6 final ranking
2006- Louisville #6 final ranking

the original post was some nonsense about Charlie Strong walking into a "rebuild" in Louisville which is a silly statement. Louisville has been building the program up since the mid 90's, spending money, hiring good coaches, moving up leagues, going to bowl games. They made one bad hire in Kragthorpe.

Compare what Lousiville has done since the mid- 90's to how Syracuse treated the football program- spend no money- no new facilities- P stopped recruiting- Grob hire- drive the fans away- haven't been ranked in 10 years ---10 YEARS

But yet you want to argue about how many Grob starters there are as opposed to how many Kragthorpe starters there are...stupid argument about nothing that has nothing to do with where the program was when Doug took over..

You are missing the point. I won't go into half the stuff you wrote because you obviously don't get it. Strong 110% walked into a rebuild. UL was 2-12 the two BE season prior to his arrival and there was no talent on the roster. Doesn't that mean a rebuild? If you want to argue they have nicer facilities and more recent success and that is why they have recruited well, then fine I can buy that. But it doesn't change the fact that Strong took over a team with less talent than the team Marrone did. It also doesn't change the fact that Strong can take a bunch of Freshman and Sophomores and win the BE , while Marrone is going 1-6 with his Freshman, Sophomores, and Juniors. If we cannot compete with Louisville, then we should just give up.

 

[GoSU96]

But it doesn't change the fact that Strong took over a team with less talent than the team Marrone did. .

Delusional

Kragthorpe that had 6 more losses than wins over three seasons. Marrone took over a program that had 27 more over 4.

That's a fact.

 

[Chip]

Delusional

It's not as delusional as you think. Maybe it's wrong, don't know, but I think it's harder to tell than you lead on. You're too focused on going back to 2005, 2006, etc. Louisville was terrible in 2008, they had little on the roster. Did you see the scores they were giving up? You think because they were 9-3 a few years earlier it's a better talent situation to walk into? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

We beat Louisville on the field. We were better. And by season's end, 5-7 vs 3-9 notwithstanding, most would agree we were the better team. Yeah, we weren't in the beginning of 2008. But if you're talking talent a coach inherits, do you want to focus on losing to Akron in the 2nd game of the season? Or going 1-10 3 years earlier? Or maybe beating ND and Louisville showed there was something to work with. And maybe most of those guys being key members of an 8 win team just 2 years later shows there was a little more to work with than you think.

Maybe Strong is a better recruiter because he could sell that his team was 9-3 three years before he got there, and Marrone was stuck saying it was eight years earlier. But Marrone had a lot more history and tradition to sell as well. Either way, I still think you're mixing arguments in this thread of what you're calling delusional.

 

[kingottoiii]

Delusional

Fact

Year 2 Marrone had 5 All BE GRob kids
Year 2 Strong had 2 Kragthorpe kids

Year 3 Marrone had 5 All BE GRob kids
Year 3 Strong will have likely have 1 Kragthorpe All BE kid

I really don't see where the debate is.

 

[kingottoiii]

Delusional

Kragthorpe that had 6 more losses than wins over three seasons. Marrone took over a program that had 27 more over 4.

That's a fact.

More facts

2-12 in BE play vs 2-12 in BE play

GRob's horrible HCing cost us several games so that 2-10 and 3-9 was a lot closer to being the 5-7 and 4-8 that Kragthorpe was.

BTW UL's OOC games were

2008 UK, Tenn Tech, K St, Memphis, Midd Tenn St
2009 Indiana St, UK, Utah, USM, Ark St

While SU's were

2007 UW, Iowa, Illinois, Miami OH, UB
2008 NW, Akron, PSU, Northeastern, ND

So UL had only 4 more Ws than SU despite playing a much easier OOC schedule and not having one of the worst HCs of all time lead their team.

BTW why are we comparing the talent BEFORE Marrone got to SU? Stop trying to distract from the fact that the talent Marrone inherited has produced 5 All BE members both this year and last year (8 different players). While the talent that String inherited produced 2 All BE members this year and likely only one for next year (2 different players). EIGHT to TWO. In addition Marrone will still have three GRob All BE members returning for next year. As long as those guys don't fall apart they will likely make the team again. So that means Marrone has had three, five, five, and three GRob players (10 guys total) make the All BE teams. But sure he had an empty cupboard.

 

[OrangeMuskyFish]

More facts

BTW why are we comparing the talent BEFORE Marrone got to SU? Stop trying to distract from the fact that the talent Marrone inherited has produced 5 All BE members both this year and last year (8 different players).

Don't mean to get in the middle of your guys' convo... but can we please just kill this part right here and now. First, any guys leftover at this point were developed almost entirely by the new regime, so who cares who brought them in. Secondly, only Carter was a.) a big recruit... b.) actually lasted... c.) remained at the position Grob had him playing... and d.) played like a star. Other than that, it's not like the players that made it to school under Grob were really any better than the classes Marrone has brought in. The word "inherited" should be stricken from Cuse fans' vocab at this juncture.

 

[SWC75]

That is simply revisionist history.

Not in my case. I felt that if we could go 6-6 and get itno a bowl it would be a good year.

Firing a coach for the third time in a decade and doing it just as we were entering the ACC would be incredibly stupid.

 

[javadoc]

Year 2 Marrone had 5 All BE GRob kids
Year 2 Strong had 2 Kragthorpe kids

Year 3 Marrone had 5 All BE GRob kids
Year 3 Strong will have likely have 1 Kragthorpe All BE kid

I really don't see where the debate is.

A roster is a lot more than 5 all conference guys, as we showed this year. Insufficient sample size for a meaningful analysis.

 

[Aweart23]

You are missing the point. I won't go into half the stuff you wrote because you obviously don't get it. Strong 110% walked into a rebuild. UL was 2-12 the two BE season prior to his arrival and there was no talent on the roster. Doesn't that mean a rebuild? If you want to argue they have nicer facilities and more recent success and that is why they have recruited well, then fine I can buy that. But it doesn't change the fact that Strong took over a team with less talent than the team Marrone did. It also doesn't change the fact that Strong can take a bunch of Freshman and Sophomores and win the BE , while Marrone is going 1-6 with his Freshman, Sophomores, and Juniors. If we cannot compete with Louisville, then we should just give up.

You and I define "Rebuild" in a completely different way. Both teams needed to RESTOCK the rosters from the previous HC's. Has Charlie done a better job or recruiting and restocking?... I won't argue that he's been a better recruiter at this point. I also won't argue that Charlie has had better success this past year in the BE.

But in no way, shape or form was Louisville in need of the same program rebuild that Syracuse was. And that is my point. Louisville started rebuilding their program in the 90's. Stadiums, money for coaches, facilities, moving up to a better conference, top ten finishes...two #6 finishes in 2004 and 2006

Syracuse was doing the exact opposite in the Jake/P years. And TGD put the patient on life support with four years of Gump. When was the last time we finished in the top 10?? 1992?

Charlie Strong was handed the keys to a house with a good, solid foundation, He needed to remodel the kitchen. And he has done a good job with it.

Doug (and TGD) walked into a decrepit, old house on South Salina Street that needed a ground up rehabilitation. Foundation, walls, kitchen, landscape, roof, everything...

Which one would you rather have???

 

[GoSU96]

You and I define "Rebuild" in a completely different way. Both teams needed to RESTOCK the rosters from the previous HC's. Has Charlie done a better job or recruiting and restocking?... I won't argue that he's been a better recruiter at this point. I also won't argue that Charlie has had better success this past year in the BE.

But in no way, shape or form was Louisville in need of the same program rebuild that Syracuse was. And that is my point. Louisville started rebuilding their program in the 90's. Stadiums, money for coaches, facilities, moving up to a better conference, top ten finishes...two #6 finishes in 2004 and 2006

Syracuse was doing the exact opposite in the Jake/P years. And TGD put the patient on life support with four years of Gump. When was the last time we finished in the top 10?? 1992?

Charlie Strong was handed the keys to a house with a good, solid foundation, He needed to remodel the kitchen. And he has done a good job with it.

Doug (and TGD) walked into a decrepit, old house on South Salina Street that needed a ground up rehabilitation. Foundation, walls, kitchen, landscape, roof, everything...

Which one would you rather have???

Bingo

 

[kingottoiii]

Don't mean to get in the middle of your guys' convo... but can we please just kill this part right here and now. First, any guys leftover at this point were developed almost entirely by the new regime, so who cares who brought them in. Secondly, only Carter was a.) a big recruit... b.) actually lasted... c.) remained at the position Grob had him playing... and d.) played like a star. Other than that, it's not like the players that made it to school under Grob were really any better than the classes Marrone has brought in. The word "inherited" should be stricken from Cuse fans' vocab at this juncture.

That isn't true by any means. Art Jones was a big time player. DC3 was a big time player. Bart was already playing. Chandler was a strong prospect. Smith had already moved to LB. Hogue was moved to LB but he also wanted to do so before Marrone arrived and was recruited by BCS programs to play LB. It wasn't like Marrone came up with some great idea. Provo was a decent prospect. Ant already had a break out game before Marrone ever stepped on campus. Not one of the above guys came out of left field to become All BE. Most had success pre Marrone. And only one switched positions but lets be honest that one was in the cards for a long time.

The only two who fit your argument are Pugh and Lemon. The other 8 guys do not.

 

[Millhouse]

Not my fault others couldn't sack up and put up what they really predicted.

if you want to call it not "sacking up", fine, i don't feel compelled to rain on everyone's parade the week before the season starts

here's my prediction for next year. the offense will suck if nassib starts. i'll get more specific when we know schedule

maybe the pessimists lacked sack. that doesn't change how many of them there were. i wasn't suprised one bit that the offense stunk. if you want to ignore everything but one thread the week before the opener, fine, but that would be pretty stupid for such an esteemed social scientist as yourself

 

[kingottoiii]

You and I define "Rebuild" in a completely different way. Both teams needed to RESTOCK the rosters from the previous HC's. Has Charlie done a better job or recruiting and restocking?... I won't argue that he's been a better recruiter at this point. I also won't argue that Charlie has had better success this past year in the BE.

But in no way, shape or form was Louisville in need of the same program rebuild that Syracuse was. And that is my point. Louisville started rebuilding their program in the 90's. Stadiums, money for coaches, facilities, moving up to a better conference, top ten finishes...two #6 finishes in 2004 and 2006

Syracuse was doing the exact opposite in the Jake/P years. And TGD put the patient on life support with four years of Gump. When was the last time we finished in the top 10?? 1992?

Charlie Strong was handed the keys to a house with a good, solid foundation, He needed to remodel the kitchen. And he has done a good job with it.

Doug (and TGD) walked into a decrepit, old house on South Salina Street that needed a ground up rehabilitation. Foundation, walls, kitchen, landscape, roof, everything...

Which one would you rather have???

Again you are totally confusion the two points. Marrone had a bigger PROGRAM rebuild. But the actual TEAM rebuild was bigger for Strong. The fact that Strong didn't have as big of a PROGRAM rebuild played a role in him recruiting so well. That being said UL is not some great PROGRAM where they can just recruit based on that AND win a share of a BE Title. Strong's recruiting skills and coaching (in addition to the PROGRAM) is what got UL there. Marrone's recruiting and coaching is what got us to 1-6.

 

[Millhouse]

Again you are totally confusion the two points. Marrone had a bigger PROGRAM rebuild. But the actual TEAM rebuild was bigger for Strong. The fact that Strong didn't have as big of a PROGRAM rebuild played a role in him recruiting so well. That being said UL is not some great PROGRAM where they can just recruit based on that AND win a share of a BE Title. Strong's recruiting skills and coaching (in addition to the PROGRAM) is what got UL there. Marrone's recruiting and coaching is what got us to 1-6.

how is he confusing those two points? you both agree about the difference between rosters and programs.