I think what people miss about not just our | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com

I think what people miss about not just our

I don't understand why it's so hard to admit that recruiting has badly fallen off. And it's not the sanctions. Look at Louisville. They're cleaning up and now #2 in the country and they got hit after us. Is it so hard to acknowledge the fact that a 75-year old man's best days are behind him?

Louisville hasn't had any sanctions, yet.

Being accused does not = being punished.

I get that facts can sometimes be tricky, but at least try to get them right with the example you choose.
 
Insiders here have said on several occasions that hop wanted to start recruiting his own players for the transition but was overruled by Jimmy. How do you forget those posts?

These insiders were reputable unbiased posters but if you want to believe it’s a conspiracy theory that’s your choice.
Being frustrated about recruiting and "mentally checking out" are two totally different things.
 
How's Hop doing on the recruiting front now? That's all you have to say in response to the mob that's following you around in this thread.
Still TBD if Hop's early recruiting success translates to success on the court. I have always been of the opinion that he will make a great HC at some point.
With a top 10 2019 recruiting class, very weak Pac 12, and 2 probable one and dones I would expect him to win or challenge for the PAC 12 championship and make it to the 2nd weekend in the dance. Hop's recruiting class for 2018 was pedestrian and I don't think he landed any consensus top 100 kids so lets not act like he has been consistently getting top classes.
 
Still TBD if Hop's early recruiting success translates to success on the court. I have always been of the opinion that he will make a great HC at some point.
With a top 10 2019 recruiting class, very weak Pac 12, and 2 probable one and dones I would expect him to win or challenge for the PAC 12 championship and make it to the 2nd weekend in the dance. Hop's recruiting class for 2018 was pedestrian and I don't think he landed any consensus top 100 kids so lets not act like he has been consistently getting top classes.

He’s won PAC COY his first two years at Washington. He’s doing something right.
 
He’s won PAC COY his first two years at Washington. He’s doing something right.

Yes - coaching in the PAC, which mostly sucks.
So, it’s easy to suck somewhat less, and be the one-eyed King in the land of the blind.
 
that is your opinion.
mine is that it was primarily due to sanctions
neither of us can prove it, but i think the talent infusion of the last 3 classes supports my opinion & casts doubt on yours
Its because we lost Hop. He was our recruiter.
 
There’s a reason for that. He mentally checked out when it became clear that JB wasn’t going to let him start recruiting his own players.

or we could go with your theory that he forgot how to recruit those last couple years and then suddenly rediscovered the magic when he went to Washington.
GMac was the lead recruiter on Quade and other kids because JB and Hop were trying to get him some wins and get him ready for a bigger recruiting assistant role under Hop as HC. Hop was actively involved in the Green recruitment and others that fall (why do you think Green quickly transferred to Washington last winter?) Hop wasn’t mentally checked out of recruiting.
 
Still TBD if Hop's early recruiting success translates to success on the court. I have always been of the opinion that he will make a great HC at some point.
With a top 10 2019 recruiting class, very weak Pac 12, and 2 probable one and dones I would expect him to win or challenge for the PAC 12 championship and make it to the 2nd weekend in the dance. Hop's recruiting class for 2018 was pedestrian and I don't think he landed any consensus top 100 kids so lets not act like he has been consistently getting top classes.

Still TBD? Wth
 
That was JB working behind the scenes softer he initially chose Michigan. And i correct myself it was Kaleb Joseph.

JB put a little in but it was all Hop. The Battles were actually really upset when he took the Washington job.

There is a Syracuse.com article about Hop and Battle and in the recruting thread for Tyus's brother there is some info about after Hop leaves that's quite interesting.
 
that is your opinion.
mine is that it was primarily due to sanctions
neither of us can prove it, but i think the talent infusion of the last 3 classes supports my opinion & casts doubt on yours

What talent infusion? This is the least talented roster we’ve had in a decade.
 
I think the OP is wrong. A lot of people have discussed this very thing multiple times over the last few years. It doesn't explain why our talent is worse than the second tier teams.
 
What talent infusion? This is the least talented roster we’ve had in a decade.
8 freshmen & sophs. they tend to get better. go take a look at eli's freshman season.

i admit i was much too high on the saplings' immediate readiness. should have listened to j.b., who has been saying all along they were not ready . . . yet
 
8 freshmen & sophs. they tend to get better. go take a look at eli's freshman season.

i admit i was much too high on the saplings' immediate readiness. should have listened to j.b., who has been saying all along they were not ready . . . yet
I’m surprised other schools haven’t figured this out yet. It’s brilliant. Bring in youngsters and inside of 2-3 years, championship!
 
What talent infusion? This is the least talented roster we’ve had in a decade.

Agreed, however that’s largely because our senior class is nonexistent.

I think we’ll be pretty good when these freshmen/soph’s are juniors/seniors provided we can bring in ONE frontcourt horse in the next two classes(looks like it’ll have to be In the 2021 class now).
 
Agreed, however that’s largely because our senior class is nonexistent.

I think we’ll be pretty good when these freshmen/soph’s are juniors/seniors provided we can bring in ONE frontcourt horse in the next two classes(looks like it’ll have to be In the 2021 class now).

Agreed that we are young, but that’s part of the game now. The best talent is young. To be a top 20 program you need early contributions from highly rated kids, combined with program guys. We just aren’t recruiting well enough to expect any success.
 
Agreed that we are young, but that’s part of the game now. The best talent is young. To be a top 20 program you need early contributions from highly rated kids, combined with program guys. We just aren’t recruiting well enough to expect any success.
Pretty sure UNC and Nova have been great with lots of veterans in recent years.
 
Pretty sure UNC and Nova have been great with lots of veterans in recent years.

They’ve also recruited circles around us. And some of that top talent stuck around. We are hoping for too many kids rated 80+ to exceed expectations. It happens, but it’s not a formula for regularly competing for ACC titles, which should be our bar.
 
They’ve also recruited circles around us. And some of that top talent stuck around. We are hoping for too many kids rated 80+ to exceed expectations. It happens, but it’s not a formula for regularly competing for ACC titles, which should be our bar.

They have in recent history, no question.

I think time will prove that we went 4-4 with Girard, Guerrier, Goodine, and Edwards though. And none look like remote possibilities to leave early any time soon. We may actually get good play out of all of them first.
 
And as down as I am on THIS team - I’m high on the futures of all 4 of our freshmen. Can’t speak on JBA yet, but the 4 that are playing all have something.

Those 4 freshman playing either for a new coach or a very old JB.

I'd be shocked if more than 2 are still here by then.
 
The only way certain people will be happy is if these guys are in the top 50. Nothing else matters and it doesn’t matter how good they end up.
I mean ... stars aren't perfectly predictive and I'd be the first to point out that we've gotten some top-100 gems (e.g., Tyler Lydon). The difference now is that, whereas historically we've mixed developmental players with 1 or 2 blue chippers, the blue chippers are gone. I'm not even talking about top-10/15 players that we used to have a legitimate shot at. I'm referring to top 25-40 kids. This year, for example, we have a crew of long-lead-time players with potential but not the ability to make immediate contributions. That is a function of recruiting outcomes ... as it generally has been in the past.

Consider the last 10 years. In the Spring of 2011 we made it to the NCAA 3rd round on the backs of 2 previously recruited 5*'s - Fab and Dion (from 2010). That fall (2011), we hauled in 2 more 5*'s in Rak and MCW and made the elite 8 in the Spring of 2012. The next fall (2012) we reeled in 5* DC and top-50 Grant and in the Spring of 2013 we made the Final Four. In the fall of 2013 we got 5* Ennis and 2 4*'s (BJ and Roberson) and made the NCAA 3rd round in the Spring of 2014. By that fall (2014), however, Ennis had jumped and we were in the midst of NCAA violations. The staff brought in 5* Mcullough ... but he was hurt mid-season. The following Spring (2015) we still had 5* Rak (leading scorer), but we struggled to an 18-13 record with a lot of roster turmoil and opted out of the tournament voluntarily (unlikely we would have received an at-large bid).

Recruiting was affected by the NCAA problems - we lost a 5* center, and a couple players transferred. Rak also graduated. Despite the adversity, the staff was able to bring in high 4* Richardson (34), Lydon (72) and Howard (79)(using 2-4-7 numbers). This new group took time to develop and lost a bunch of league games (.500 in conference), but by March (2016) we got in the NCAA and clawed our way to the FF - through (5*) DC's rebounding, Lydon's versatility at PF and clutch plays by MR in the regional final against UVA.

Then in the fall of 2016, recruiting slipped. MR had jumped and fans were hopeful - we still had DC on the roster, plus a grad. transfer in AW3 and high 4* in Battle (34), Moyer (66) and 6'10 TT (74). But by the next Spring (2017), both (5*) Coleman and center 7'2 Chukwu were injured. Lydon wound up having to play a lot of center, TT played no D, and we went 19-15 and missed the NCAA's. By then the program's most recent 5* recruit (McCullough in 2014) was long gone and there was one healthy high 4* on the roster (TB).

Since then - a period of three+ recruiting cycles - we have brought in 0 5* players, 0 top-50 players and only two top-100 players (Goodine, Carey - not counting #'s 96 and 99 in the 2020 class who are verbals). In the 2017-18 season, after landing Hughes (3* transfer who sat out), MD (111), Sid (190), Brissett (137)(gone) and HoWash (160), we did make an improbable run to the Sweet 16 (Spring of 2018), relying on high-4* Battle, Brissett, Chukwu and a tough zone. But the following fall (2018), we brought in only one kid in the top-100 (Carey 61), with Bras (151) and BB (349) and regressed to mediocrity with a regular season record of 20-14. We won a play-in spot in the NCAA's, but lost in the 1st round (without PG Howard) despite having Battle back and Chukwu in the middle. This fall, once again we have no 5*'s on the roster. Our last top-50/high 4* (TB) is gone. We don't have any incoming top-50 kids and only one freshmen made the top-100 (Goodine - 97). Besides him, our recruits were QQ (122), JG3 (201) and Edwards (197). So at the current time we have no 5*'s, no high-4*'s and only 2 players in the top 100. This reveals a steady drop in recruiting over the last decade. NCAA turmoil from 2013 to 2015 undoubtedly hurt us. And it's likely that recruiting restrictions (from 2015-17) played a role in ending our string of 5 stars. But the trend was arguably underway before the sanctions and has continued well past NCAA restrictions.

Make no mistake - I like having developmental guys on the roster. Who doesn't root for home-state champion JG3 and Bras (who can shoot and jump)? Carey's athleticism is off the charts (injured/RS). Guerrier will obviously be good and seems underrated. Edwards and Goodine are oozing with potential. And Buddy - I mean - it's fantastic to see him in Orange and I enjoy watching him play despite recent struggles. Kid is lights-out as a catch and shoot 2-guard. But with Hughes being the only guy on the team who can create his own offense, guys like Buddy and JG3 are being asked to play beyond their maturity and abilities.

The fact is that over time we play like we recruit. Failing to bring in a healthy mix of high-4 or 5* players with developmental guys (especially over the last 3 years) has dragged the program below its national stature. This year in particular, we look stunningly overmatched in games against OOC opponents. Conference outcomes could be worse even in a weak ACC bottom-half. There's nothing wrong with recognizing this trend, accepting it and hoping JB/JW do something about it. In the meantime, I'll keep watching and hoping our young players come along as quickly as possible.
 
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They have in recent history, no question.

I think time will prove that we went 4-4 with Girard, Guerrier, Goodine, and Edwards though. And none look like remote possibilities to leave early any time soon. We may actually get good play out of all of them first.
Agreed. I’m trying remain positive
 

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