If you could choose, would you prefer 30 wins and sweet 16 or 14 losses + Final 4?

[two3zone]

Anytime a coach discussion comes up about how great they are, the first two benchmarks are usually

1. Titles

2. Final fours.

I'll go with B. A Thirty win season capped byba sweet 16 feels like a colossal tease.

Wins.

I hear a heck of a lot more about JBs win total than his national championship or final fours.

 

[MadNY3]

Based on JB's presser from last night. I personally would choose choice A.

Final Four

 

[cuseinseattle]

Final 4. It seems obvious to me.

 

[Eric15]

Have you ever thought that a good part of Kansas regular season success is in part to playing in a weaker league compared to us. I mean they have been to one more final four than us since 2000. Maybe they don't lose as many regular season games, but maybe the Big 12 just isn't that good.

I did a quick scan of their SOSs prior to the NCAA tournament the past 5 years and it was 4-17-1-1-2. The Big 12 is usually solid and they play a brutal non-conference schedule every year.

 

[Eric15]

For the purposes of this hypothetical, are we looking only at one season in a vacuum, or the multi-year big picture?

If the year was 2006, George Mason went to the Final Four and Duke got bounced in the Sweet 16. Are people here saying they would rather be George Mason than Duke? That's insane. Duke was a 1 seed that year and won 30 plus games, and thus was more likely to have sustained success over the next 10 years than magical 11 seed George Mason, which is exactly what happened.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Wins.

I hear a heck of a lot more about JBs win total than his national championship or final fours.

I feel like Syracuse fans care about win totals (obviously). I don't hear about it much from other fans. Maybe win percentage.

 

[Cusefan0307]

For the purposes of this hypothetical, are we looking only at one season in a vacuum, or the multi-year big picture?

If the year was 2006, George Mason went to the Final Four and Duke got bounced in the Sweet 16. Are people here saying they would rather be George Mason than Duke? That's insane. Duke was a 1 seed that year and won 30 plus games, and thus was more likely to have sustained success over the next 10 years than magical 11 seed George Mason, which is exactly what happened.

Do you think Kansas would have as a good a record in the oughts Big East or the current ACC? Over a 20 year period they haven't had much more postseason success than us. It almost seems like you would rather be in a weaker league to have more wins. We've also beat them twice in the tournament during that time.

 

[Flacusian]

Essentially, I want BOTH

 

[HOFCeluck]

For the purposes of this hypothetical, are we looking only at one season in a vacuum, or the multi-year big picture?

If the year was 2006, George Mason went to the Final Four and Duke got bounced in the Sweet 16. Are people here saying they would rather be George Mason than Duke? That's insane. Duke was a 1 seed that year and won 30 plus games, and thus was more likely to have sustained success over the next 10 years than magical 11 seed George Mason, which is exactly what happened.

I thought it was one year in a vacuum.

 

[MSOrange]

I can see the benefits to both, but I'm going to have to go with the Final 4. 1988-90 is my favorite era of SU hoops with DC and Billy and the Dome going crazy, but I can't help but also remember they couldn't quite get over the hump in the tournament. Plus I think we can all easily name the years we made the final 4 - those just stick in your mind.

 

[OrangeDW]

I can see the benefits to both, but I'm going to have to go with the Final 4. 1988-90 is my favorite era of SU hoops with DC and Billy and the Dome going crazy, but I can't help but also remember they couldn't quite get over the hump in the tournament. Plus I think we can all easily name the years we made the final 4 - those just stick in your mind.

I would agree that the final fours are the best years. Not necessarily the best teams though. That's the nature of a one and done tourney. We've had some absolute monster teams not make the final four...1988, 1989, and 1990 like you said, 2010, 2012...if you ignored post seasons, you can argue that those were Boeheim's 5 best teams.

It's so hard to do in a one and done tournament, that a final four run is special and it automatically makes the season a huge success.

 

[hungrychuck]

5 in 40 years is a lot better than 3 in 36

Still underachieving in my view.

 

[hungrychuck]

So we're screwed going forward?

We have a temporary vulnerability in recruiting. Obviously that can change if Hop wins big right out of the gate.

 

[RaoulDuke]

FINAL FOUR ! No surrender !

 

[RF2044]

FINAL FOUR ! No surrender !

Where've you been?

 

[Cheriehoop]

I think he's probably upset by having the media, bloggers etc cherry picking stats encouraging even more negativity without any explanation, perspective. Love or hate him, this is a program that he's dedicated his life to establish, sustain despite joining a new conference, injuries, unanticipated early NBA entries, sanctions, retirement scuttlebut etc his teams have produced 2 final 4's in the past 4 seasons. The reason we are even disappointed is because of the lofty expectations set by JB and the SU program. No one has ignored the obvious horrific start to this season but for Bud to create news by framing info, ignoring history and whatever doesn't fit his preordained headlined conclusion is bad and sad.

Bud doesn't want to talk the last 3 or 4 or even 5 full seasons but decided to define JB's recent legacy starting with a specific game (after the Feb 2014 Pitt game) during the 2013-2014 regular season to this uncompleted disappointing start of the season. Why start there? He repeats his alarmist mantra that we are mired in a 3 year unprecedented downslide and to mark his all knowing words, that we are no longer the program we once were. Really?

The final Four 30 win team in 2012-2013 doesn't count in his self appointed time analysis instead starting (2014) and ending in partial seasons (2017) and leading to his dismissing last year's path to the final 4 as irrelevant (to his agenda) and a short-term over valued miracle. He starts in February 2014 because he personally deems it as unconnected and meaningless to the 25 winning streak that started the season less the Final 4 and 30 win season that preceded it.

Unprecedented? Even cherry picking partial season time frames to justify your conclusion, Bud, what about the 2005-2006, 2006-2007, 2007-2008 teams with double digit losses for each year including 2 NIT bids (9th, 5 and 5th in the old Big East regular season) and a 1st round loss in the NCAA's? We came back stronger than ever. Same with the 1980-1981, 1981-1982, 1982-1983 seasons also with double digit losses and 2 NIT bids (NIT champs in 80-81) and a 2nd round NCAA loss in 1983. Again came back stronger than ever. The true facts contained in our history shouldn't be a secret to Bud. However it can be deliberately ignored though when you have an agenda and crave clicks over research and perspective.

We never had close to a losing season under JB. There are 347 D1 basketball programs and only Kentucky (3), Wisconsin (2)and Louisville (2) have made 2 or more Final fours in the past 5 years like SU - not Duke, not UNC, not Kansas , Michigan St, Arizona, UCLA etc. We inarguably played horrific earlier this year but to dismiss other SU teams' accomplishments is disingenuous.

Sincerely apologize for the long rant. Disappointed and frustrated as anyone with our start , not trying to be an apologist just a realist and fighting hysteria whether I hear those who were saying we will be national champs as well as those who cry gloom and doom and a slide into oblivion. I will give myself a time out.

 

[obliterata]

Years ago there was a coach that went 122-16 during the regular season in his last 5 years of coaching and if you take away his "bad" year during this stretch (17-11 regular season, NIT runner-up) his regular season record was a very impressive 105-5. Unfortunately he went 1-4 in the NCAAT with one Sweet Sixteen during this time, and then.....Depaul coach Ray Meyer resigned.

Everyone who says A must have a picture of him on a wall somewhere.....

B

 

[tbonezone]

we are syracuse and again we aren't ranked . this is 3 straight seasons now we've been bounced out the polls early (week 3-4).
in order to be ranked top 25 you have to win games during the season. and that's not been happening a lot lately. i'll take a top 10 season in the polls over a final four.and i think that's a better sell to recruits .

 

[jdubs30]

That's tough. Last year after Atlantis was tough. A bunch of hard losses, the anxiety of being on the bubble. Every game from February on felt like do-or-die. I was pleasantly surprised when we did get in, and nothing can quite replace a FF run - it makes the whole tournament itself more enjoyable.

But I'll be damned if I didn't have a blast in 2010 and 2012 - when you're so good for 4 months and win nearly every game you play, it's so exciting and fun. But to have it come crashin to an end unexpectedly is tough to deal with.

From to start finish I believe years like 2010 are more enjoyable than years like last year. We had a fun 2 weeks last year, but in 2010/2012 we had a great 16 weeks.

Record book wise, I believe Final FOur's hold bigger clout

 

[dasher]

we are syracuse and again we aren't ranked . this is 3 straight seasons now we've been bounced out the polls early (week 3-4).
in order to be ranked top 25 you have to win games during the season. and that's not been happening a lot lately. i'll take a top 10 season in the polls over a final four.and i think that's a better sell to recruits .

Quick, name the top 10 teams right now. Okay, name the final four teams last year. I would take a final four every day of the week over a top 10 in season ranking.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Quick, name the top 10 teams right now. Okay, name the final four teams last year. I would take a final four every day of the week over a top 10 in season ranking.

Especially when we finished top 10 in the rankings last year. Lot of people moving the goalposts in this thread from previous opinions they had. Including a few Izzo lovers who have said regular season losses don't mean squat when he gets MSU to the final four.

 

[realorange]

Still underachieving in my view.

And how many other teams have done 5 in 40?

 

[realorange]

I would agree that the final fours are the best years. Not necessarily the best teams though. That's the nature of a one and done tourney. We've had some absolute monster teams not make the final four...1988, 1989, and 1990 like you said, 2010, 2012...if you ignored post seasons, you can argue that those were Boeheim's 5 best teams.

It's so hard to do in a one and done tournament, that a final four run is special and it automatically makes the season a huge success.

Agree with what you said, but I'd never forget watching the 88,89 90 teams. Monster teams for sure but they were up against some other monster teams in the NCAA. Illinois-ugh!
I'm not sure the Dome will ever see again the kind of fan fervor those teams generated.

 

[SWC75]

I guess I would choose the Final Four on this basis: If we kept winning 30 games and losing in the sweet 16, i would find that too frustrating. if we kept losing 14 games but going to the Final Four, that would make me happier.

But, despite our recent results a 30 win team is more likely to get to the Final Four and also more likely to win the national championship. If you keep losing 14, you should tend to get fewer Final Fours, not more of them. You might not get invited to the tournament. I hate sweating our selection Sunday.

And if you keep losing 14, your program is more likely to decline than improve. You'll get better recruits winning 30 consistently. People will not know you made a deal with the devil and think that you are likely to break through at some point.

 

[hungrychuck]

And how many other teams have done 5 in 40?

Lute Olson had five in 30 years. Consider him a great coach?

UConn has 4 national titles in 18 years.

Tough comparison, but a HOF coach deserves to be held to a high standard.