important to remember where shafer left us on defense | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com

important to remember where shafer left us on defense

Grbac said:
Pts given up per game


2008 - 32.7(102 of 120) Robinson vs #34 ranked schedule
2009 - 27.9(81 of 120) Marrone vs #36 ranked schedule
2010 - 19.3(17 of 120) Marrone vs #73 ranked schedule
2011 - 28.5(73 of 120) Marrone vs #55 ranked schedule
2012 - 24.8(47 of 124) Marrone vs #45 ranked schedule
2013 - 25.4(56 of 125) Shafer vs #57 ranked schedule
2014 - 24.3(38 of 128) Shafer vs #41 ranked schedule
2015 - 31.0(90 of 128) Shafer vs #39 ranked schedule
2016 - 38.6(120 of 128) Babers vs #8 ranked schedule
2017 - 32.2(102 of 128) Babers #5 ranked schedule
Expand...

SoS included above (just so it's clear)

And since O numbers matter too:

2008 - 18.1 (108 of 120) Robinson vs #34 ranked schedule
2009 - 21.2(98 of 120) Marrone vs #36 ranked schedule
2010 - 22.2(93 of 120) Marrone vs #73 ranked schedule
2011 - 24.2(83 of 120) Marrone vs #55 ranked schedule
2012 - 30.0(55 of 124) Marrone vs #45 ranked schedule
2013 - 22.7(99 of 125) Shafer vs #57 ranked schedule
2014 - 17.1(121 of 128) Shafer vs #41 ranked schedule
2015 - 27.3(77 of 128) Shafer vs #39 ranked schedule
2016 - 25.7(90 of 128) Babers vs #8 ranked schedule
2017 - 27.4(76 of 128) Babers #5 ranked schedule
 
Grbac said:
Pts given up per game


2008 - 32.7(102 of 120) Robinson
2009 - 27.9(81 of 120) Marrone
2010 - 19.3(17 of 120) Marrone
2011 - 28.5(73 of 120) Marrone
2012 - 24.8(47 of 124) Marrone
2013 - 25.4(56 of 125) Shafer
2014 - 24.3(38 of 128) Shafer
2015 - 31.0(90 of 128) Shafer
2016 - 38.6(120 of 128) Babers
2017 - 32.2(102 of 128) Babers
Expand...
Makes total sense given the pace our offense plays at. If/when we're not scoring on offense, the defense spends significantly more time on the field. Three and outs are killers on a defense.

Also, keep in mind that FHCSS attempted to slow the game waaaaay done and limit the opponents number of possessions. If his offense was up tempo the defense numbers would be very comparable to Babers' first two years.

The bottom line is our defense has sucked for a long time and its difficult to watch...especially the "gash" plays that result huge chucks of yardage. I realiize we're under manned right now...but you'll never convince me that scheme isn't just as big an issue. Something needs to change.
 
If you wanna compare defenses from different years while adjusting for pace and SOS then the way to do it is adjusted points per possession (points per game is pretty useless for obvious reasons). The adjusted points per possession is an available statistic. Shafers last season and Babers first two seasons are about as bad as it gets over the tenure of the past 4 coaches. I'll try and post the numbers later for compariso purposes if I have time.
 
RMH44 said:
Makes total sense given the pace our offense plays at. If/when we're not scoring on offense, the defense spends significantly more time on the field. Three and outs are killers on a defense.

Also, keep in mind that FHCSS attempted to slow the game waaaaay done and limit the opponents number of possessions. If his offense was up tempo the defense numbers would be very comparable to Babers' first two years.

The bottom line is our defense has sucked for a long time and its difficult to watch...especially the "gash" plays that result huge chucks of yardage. I realiize we're under manned right now...but you'll never convince me that scheme isn't just as big an issue. Something needs to change.
Expand...
I mean this is it to a tee.
Scott Shafer’s tenure was such an epic failure it still ticks me off Gross went cheap and hired him.
 
Team yards per play

Babers:
2017 - 5.1 (4 wins)
2016 - 5.1 (4 wins)

Shafer:
2015 - 4.9 (4 wins)
2014 - 4.8 (3 wins)
2013 - 4.8 (7 wins)
 
It is unbelievable to me that people try to compare Fhcss and Dino.

Have you guys watched the same games the past 5-6 years? The same ACC?

We played 4 teams this year that were in preseason talks for national championship contention. Not even counting the team with the returning heisman.

Wake Forest, Bc, nc state are not the baby soft teams of old HCSS faced.

Forget stats, season ticket holders and die hards should be able to see the difference. I absolutely do.


Another challenge for dino is getting the casuals, leaf rakers and skeptics to notice to.
 
Took the average our offense scores and subtracted what our defense gives up for Shafer vs Babers.

Shafer-

2013:
Lost by average of 3 ppg

2014:
Lost by average of 7 ppg

2015:
Lost by average of 4 ppg

Babers-

2016:
Lost by average of 13 ppg

2017:
Lost by average of 5 ppg


This does seem to show that Babers teams kept games much closer in year two, which points to progress. Overall Shafer was more competitive though. I don't know why people have to hate Shafer to love Babers. Shafer deserved more time regardless of what a lot of people think of him here and Babers deserves more time even though the W-L aint pretty right now. The people that started calling everyone "Shafer apologists/lovers" are the same ones making excuses for Babers that weren't valid for Shafer apparently.
 
TheCusian said:
SoS included above (just so it's clear)

And since O numbers matter too:

2008 - 18.1 (108 of 120) Robinson vs #34 ranked schedule
2009 - 21.2(98 of 120) Marrone vs #36 ranked schedule
2010 - 22.2(93 of 120) Marrone vs #73 ranked schedule
2011 - 24.2(83 of 120) Marrone vs #55 ranked schedule
2012 - 30.0(55 of 124) Marrone vs #45 ranked schedule
2013 - 22.7(99 of 125) Shafer vs #57 ranked schedule
2014 - 17.1(121 of 128) Shafer vs #41 ranked schedule
2015 - 27.3(77 of 128) Shafer vs #39 ranked schedule
2016 - 25.7(90 of 128) Babers vs #8 ranked schedule
2017 - 27.4(76 of 128) Babers #5 ranked schedule
Expand...

Curious, where are you getting your SoS #'s?

39th - https://www.teamrankings.com/college-football/ranking/schedule-strength-by-other
 
Pyle said:
Here's the thing that I get and other defensive meatheads get. If you keep the score low and close when you are outmanned then you give yourself the luck factor. Shafer kept games close so if you get a bounce your way, i.e. a pick 6(his aggressive defense was designed to confuse QBs and force mistakes), a fumble, a PR for a TD, etc then you might just have a chance. Babers philosophy doesn't offer this, we just get our doors blown off by competent QBs.
Expand...

This is 100% the opposite of reality.

1. If you chart the number of plays by year, it's really interesting (* denotes tempo years)

- 2008: 691 on O / 838 on D
- 2009: 775 on O / 743 on D
- 2010: 812 on O / 856 on D
- 2011: 814 on O / 851 on D
- 2012: 1029 on O / 866 on D*
- 2013: 959 on O / 896 on D
- 2014: 807 on O / 838 on D
- 2015: 751 on O / 847 on D
- 2016: 971 on O / 870 on D*
- 2017: 1027 on O / 832 on D*

2. We got our doors blown off by competent QB's in almost all games (Bridgewater still put up 424 on us in Marrone's best win), meathead ball or not

3. Babers philosophy got us our two best wins to start their first 2 seasons of *any* tenure since Grob.

4. More offensive possessions = more leeway when things go wrong. D meathead approach give you less margin for error.
 
orange_in_VA said:
Took the average our offense scores and subtracted what our defense gives up for Shafer vs Babers.

Shafer-

2013:
Lost by average of 3 ppg

2014:
Lost by average of 7 ppg

2015:
Lost by average of 4 ppg

Babers-

2016:
Lost by average of 13 ppg

2017:
Lost by average of 5 ppg


This does seem to show that Babers teams kept games much closer in year two, which points to progress. Overall Shafer was more competitive though. I don't know why people have to hate Shafer to love Babers. Shafer deserved more time regardless of what a lot of people think of him here and Babers deserves more time even though the W-L aint pretty right now. The people that started calling everyone "Shafer apologists/lovers" are the same ones making excuses for Babers that weren't valid for Shafer apparently.
Expand...
I hate Shafer because his hiring was dumb and is why we suck now.
We made the jump from dumpster fire to medicore under Marrone and we handed the keys to a guy with no HC experience who had never spent a game on the sideline and gave him a P5 job at the most important time in transitioning to a new tougher league.

Shafer’s hiring was bound to fail and set us back as his recruiting philosophy was that of a MAC team.

I am sure he is a nice guy but his hiring was dumb I said it when it happened and now with our program with little depth in the upper class it’s not a shocker.
 
Louie and Bouie said:
If you wanna compare defenses from different years while adjusting for pace and SOS then the way to do it is adjusted points per possession (points per game is pretty useless for obvious reasons). The adjusted points per possession is an available statistic. Shafers last season and Babers first two seasons are about as bad as it gets over the tenure of the past 4 coaches. I'll try and post the numbers later for compariso purposes if I have time.
Expand...
does it adjust for scores that have nothing to do with the defense or bad field position?
 
Shafer was more competitive?

We hung in there with every top 20 team we faced this year and beat the number 1 team in the nation.


Then unfortunately had the “soft” part of our ACC schedule hit after the “depth” HCSS left us had been absolutely battered by teams fielding more NFL talent than we’ve fielded in 20 years.

Mind you the soft part of our ACC schedule featured arguable top 40 teams in wake and bc as well as the god damn returning heisman.
 
Trueblue25 said:
Shafer was more competitive?

We hung in there with every top 20 team we faced this year and beat the number 1 team in the nation.


Then unfortunately had the “soft” part of our ACC schedule hit after the “depth” HCSS left us had been absolutely battered by teams fielding more NFL talent than we’ve fielded in 20 years.

Mind you the soft part of our ACC schedule featured arguable top 40 teams in wake and bc as well as the god damn returning heisman.
Expand...
Shafer faced Wake during the upper class men taking the lumps seasons.
Also that 2015 win over Wake was a fluke that thankfully we won.
 
Alsacs said:
I hate Shafer because his hiring was dumb and is why we suck now.
We made the jump from dumpster fire to medicore under Marrone and we handed the keys to a guy with no HC experience who had never spent a game on the sideline and gave him a P5 job at the most important time in transitioning to a new tougher league.

Shafer’s hiring was bound to fail and set us back as his recruiting philosophy was that of a MAC team.

I am sure he is a nice guy but his hiring was dumb I said it when it happened and now with our program with little depth in the upper class it’s not a shocker.
Expand...

Marrone never recruited a replacement for Nassib and filled a lot of holes with JUCO players. Shafer wasn't left with much. Still, managed to win a bowl game with Terrel Hunt and won road games against ACC teams with AJ Long and Zach Mahoney starting at QB
 
orange_in_VA said:
Took the average our offense scores and subtracted what our defense gives up for Shafer vs Babers.

Shafer-

2013:
Lost by average of 3 ppg

2014:
Lost by average of 7 ppg

2015:
Lost by average of 4 ppg

Babers-

2016:
Lost by average of 13 ppg

2017:
Lost by average of 5 ppg


This does seem to show that Babers teams kept games much closer in year two, which points to progress. Overall Shafer was more competitive though. I don't know why people have to hate Shafer to love Babers. Shafer deserved more time regardless of what a lot of people think of him here and Babers deserves more time even though the W-L aint pretty right now. The people that started calling everyone "Shafer apologists/lovers" are the same ones making excuses for Babers that weren't valid for Shafer apparently.
Expand...

Shafer didn’t deserve more time and it wasn’t because of his record. He was an unhinged moron, especially his last season. It was clear he had no real plan either, except for recruiting kids who didn’t belong in the ACC in most cases. Shafer was also in the program for 4 years before becoming HC so he had his players to play his scheme on D already in place when he was hired.
 
orange_in_VA said:
Marrone never recruited a replacement for Nassib and filled a lot of holes with JUCO players. Shafer wasn't left with much. Still, managed to win a bowl game with Terrel Hunt and won road games against ACC teams with AJ Long and Zach Mahoney starting at QB
Expand...
Go ahead and blame Marrone for Shafer’s roster but Shafer wasn’t a HC and he showed it with his behavior.
He lost it.
The guy was a coordinator who hit the lottery.
 
orange_in_VA said:
Marrone never recruited a replacement for Nassib and filled a lot of holes with JUCO players. Shafer wasn't left with much. Still, managed to win a bowl game with Terrel Hunt and won road games against ACC teams with AJ Long and Zach Mahoney starting at QB
Expand...


He had a QB that went to TCU which was stacked with QBs.

The idea of "continuity" was running the same system. Gross should've hired Hackett if he kept it internal. This botching was as bad as the Fab Melo mess. (RIP)
 
Trueblue25 said:
It is unbelievable to me that people try to compare Fhcss and Dino.

Have you guys watched the same games the past 5-6 years? The same ACC?

We played 4 teams this year that were in preseason talks for national championship contention. Not even counting the team with the returning heisman.

Wake Forest, Bc, nc state are not the baby soft teams of old HCSS faced.

Forget stats, season ticket holders and die hards should be able to see the difference. I absolutely do.


Another challenge for dino is getting the casuals, leaf rakers and skeptics to notice to.
Expand...
I don't think it's supposed to be a we want Shafer back or Dino to go kind of thing. What Orange_in_VA and I are trying to do is open up some eyes. People are still blinded by the Clemson win, but we got freaking rocked at home against BC. Wake scored 35 points on us in a half. This defense is bad. People are making excuses. Do I see flashes? Sure, so did Grob apparently. We played some close games, lucky us. At the end of the day, we got beat by MTSU and both of our supposed 'peer' teams. I'm laughing at the guys saying yup, Addazio got it rolling after 6 years! These are the same guys at the beginning of the year who thought BC would be hiring right now and had that game penciled as a sure win.
 
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