In order to get to the next level

[kcsu]

Yesterdays game was another example of how far we have come and how far we still have to go.

I like that we are competative and that the players seem to have bought into the program. I like that we have upgraded the talent level across the board and i like the growth shown by Hack which has been been the biggest surprise of all. If Kobena doesnt drop the opening KO, If Reddish doesnt drop the gift, If the goal line play is reveresed as it should have been this team most likely wins. As to coaching i think that for the most part Doug and his staff are doing a good job and should be retained. The major exceptions are Special teams and in game decision making. We have been from day one and continue to be as poor a special teams group that i have ever seen on the Hill. Having watched games since the early 60's i can say that we have never been this bad. Week in and week out it is the same and it isnt limited to one of the special team units it is across the board. Simply put we have stunk since Doug came on board and we continue to stink. If im Gross i would demand a special teams coach be hired. As to in game decisions im not sure how much that can improve. Doug is what he is on game day and to date he has not shown the quick decision making or the intuitive feel that some coaches just seem to have. There isnt much that can be done about this other than hope that he becomes better with time and experiance. All in all this has been a C grade type of year. We have improved in some areas mostly the talent and the play calling of Hack yet we have failed to improve in areas that can be directly attributed to coaching. Specials and in game decisions. Specials can be fixed with the right hire. In game is something that i doubt will ever be great under Doug as four years should be enough to get it right. Lets hope we pull off a miracle and go 2 for 3 down the stretch and provide a positive off season as we prepare for the ACC.

 

[OrangePA]

So, you think a different coach would have prevented the blocked FG?

Or would have prevented the Kobena fumble or the Krautman miss?

Marrone said that they were very mindful of the Cincy block scheme on the FG and that they practiced against it - that they didn't execute the plan.

Maybe there was a problem with the plan but I doubt it. I suspect that in that instance Cincy's players overcame our plan and our players and just made the play.

You know by all accounts we had a very good Special Teams coach here for nearly two years - Bob Casullo. A guy who went to the Super Bowl I think on two occassions with two different teams.

And his STs were awful.

I don't know the answer but I question once again the old reliable "we need a new coach" response to the failure by players to execute the plan.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Since we at the max limit for assistant coaches ... if you're Gross, who do you fire to make room for a ST coach? Atkins? Wheatley? Moore? Anselmo? Or one of the defensive coaches?

 

[OttoinGrotto]

So, you think a different coach would have prevented the blocked FG?

Or would have prevented the Kobena fumble or the Krautman miss?

Marrone said that they were very mindful of the Cincy block scheme on the FG and that they practiced against it - that they didn't execute the plan.

Maybe there was a problem with the plan but I doubt it.

When a teacher knows the curriculum, and the student continually fails to grasp the material, at a certain point it makes sense to question the effectiveness of the teaching.

Maybe we aren't to that point yet. If we aren't, we're at least to the point where it's on the table.

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[BostonOrange]

So, you think a different coach would have prevented the blocked FG?

Or would have prevented the Kobena fumble or the Krautman miss?

Marrone said that they were very mindful of the Cincy block scheme on the FG and that they practiced against it - that they didn't execute the plan.

Maybe there was a problem with the plan but I doubt it. I suspect that in that instance Cincy's players overcame our plan and our players and just made the play.

You know by all accounts we had a very good Special Teams coach here for nearly two years - Bob Casullo. A guy who went to the Super Bowl I think on two occassions with two different teams.

And his STs were awful.

I don't know the answer but I question once again the old reliable "we need a new coach" response to the failure by players to execute the plan.

Sorry but when the special teams are consistently terrible and cost us games it is on the head coach. Just like winning is ultimately on the head coach. He never throws a block or makes a tackle, but ultimately it is on him. And our special teams under Marrone have been absolutely inexcusable

 

[Alsacs]

So, you think a different coach would have prevented the blocked FG?

Or would have prevented the Kobena fumble or the Krautman miss?

Marrone said that they were very mindful of the Cincy block scheme on the FG and that they practiced against it - that they didn't execute the plan.

Maybe there was a problem with the plan but I doubt it. I suspect that in that instance Cincy's players overcame our plan and our players and just made the play.

You know by all accounts we had a very good Special Teams coach here for nearly two years - Bob Casullo. A guy who went to the Super Bowl I think on two occassions with two different teams.

And his STs were awful.

I don't know the answer but I question once again the old reliable "we need a new coach" response to the failure by players to execute the plan.

Listen your a good fan, and I respect some of your takes but please understand the coaches are paid a lot of money to get the job done. I believe Doug Marrone has done an excellent job rising us back from being the dregs of college football and back to where we go on the field and we are competitive. I also think he has earned one more year as coach as his game planning and preparation of the team have been solid. With that said he has been HORRIBLE as in-game coach and the fact we still have discipline problems is completely on him.The special teams shouldn't be this bad the fact they are falls SQUARELY 100% on him. How 1-AA teams can execute field operations and we can't is 100% on him and his staff. The decisions when to go and not go for first downs are squarely on Doug Marrone. Marrone has shown he has no freaking clue when to go for it and when not too. Last week against USF down 9 and two scores in the 4th quarter in no rain on the USF 25 with 4th and 1 he decides to go for it and we convert and score a TD. This week down 11 in a rain storm on 4th and 2 from the Cincy 27 he kicks a FG after his kicker had his last one blocked. Then down 2 scores from his 38 with 7 minutes left he punts on 4th and 10 when you aren't going to get the ball 2 more times. The players may not execute but get off the damn high horse and acknowledge the fact DM has struggled and its fourth damn year. If DM was mindful of the UC block scheme then why not go for 4th and 2 when you offense was averaging over 5 yards per play at the point. DM is getting a 5th year with a tight leash next year. For some people to suggest a change is not stupid and the fact you ride your position to death doesn't mean your right. I don't think DM can get us to the next level because he will continue to have the NFL mentality when to go and not go for things and if the talent improved I think his boneheadedness would cost in a spot that would frustrate the heck out of me. With that said he shouldn't be fired after this year.

 

[OrangePA]

Listen your a good fan, and I respect some of your takes but please understand the coaches are paid a lot of money to get the job done. I believe Doug Marrone has done an excellent job rising us back from being the dregs of college football and back to where we go on the field and we are competitive. I also think he has earned one more year as coach as his game planning and preparation of the team have been solid. With that said he has been HORRIBLE as in-game coach and the fact we still have discipline problems is completely on him.The special teams shouldn't be this bad the fact they are falls SQUARELY 100% on him. How 1-AA teams can execute field operations and we can't is 100% on him and his staff. The decisions when to go and not go for first downs are squarely on Doug Marrone. Marrone has shown he has no freaking clue when to go for it and when not too. Last week against USF down 9 and two scores in the 4th quarter in no rain on the USF 25 with 4th and 1 he decides to go for it and we convert and score a TD. This week down 11 in a rain storm on 4th and 2 from the Cincy 27 he kicks a FG after his kicker had his last one blocked. Then down 2 scores from his 38 with 7 minutes left he punts on 4th and 10 when you aren't going to get the ball 2 more times. The players may not execute but get off the damn high horse and acknowledge the fact DM has struggled and its fourth damn year. If DM was mindful of the UC block scheme then why not go for 4th and 2 when you offense was averaging over 5 yards per play at the point. DM is getting a 5th year with a tight leash next year. For some people to suggest a change is not stupid and the fact you ride your position to death doesn't mean your right. I don't think DM can get us to the next level because he will continue to have the NFL mentality when to go and not go for things and if the talent improved I think his boneheadedness would cost in a spot that would frustrate the heck out of me. With that said he shouldn't be fired after this year.

So, last week Marrone made the right decision on fourth down and this week he didn't.

Last week he is a terrific coach and this week he is not.

Was Cincy disciplined yesterday? Should their coach be fired? Are you putting a short leash on him as well when his team fumbles repeatedly in the red zone and nearly throws the game losing INT while committing eight penalties for 90 yards?

I don't agree with all of the decisions Marrone makes. I don't agree with all of the decisions that Bill Belicheck makes or that Les Miles makes. But Coach Marrone's decisions yesterday did not decide the game - not even close.

The players' failure to do the basic things caused the loss - catch the friggin ball!!!

None of us really knows what goes into the coaching decisions that we see and try to analyze.

Marrone has done a great job - he's not going anywhere for a long time so you can stop with the discussion over whether or not he should be fired.

And with all due respect who the heck are you to announce that "DM is getting a 5th year with a tight leash next year."?

Are you his immediate superior at Syracuse University? Or his dog catcher?

 

[OrangePA]

When a teacher knows the curriculum, and the student continually fails to grasp the material, at a certain point it makes sense to question the effectiveness of the teaching.

Maybe we aren't to that point yet. If we aren't, we're at least to the point where it's on the table.

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Maybe we just need a better punter.

Maybe we need a better FG kicker.

Maybe we need a WR who catches better than West - who I think has dropped at least three TD passes this fall - crucial ones.

Maybe we need an RB who can hit a HR or can return a KO - like Ralph David Abernathy.

Maybe we need better LBs and DLs.

I don't know if Marrone is getting all that he can get from this group. I just don't know.

I think he has gotten as much as can be gotten out of Ryan Nassib - and that tells me a lot.

 

[rrlbees]

Maybe we just need a better punter.

Maybe we need a better FG kicker.

Maybe we need a WR who catches better than West - who I think has dropped at least three TD passes this fall - crucial ones.

Maybe we need an RB who can hit a HR or can return a KO - like Ralph David Abernathy.

Maybe we need better LBs and DLs.

I don't know if Marrone is getting all that he can get from this group. I just don't know.

I think he has gotten as much as can be gotten out of Ryan Nassib - and that tells me a lot.

Is he not responsible for getting the right players? The way you are making it sound, we should never have fired Grob. The head coach isn't responsible for anything.

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[rrlbees]

Since we at the max limit for assistant coaches ... if you're Gross, who do you fire to make room for a ST coach? Atkins? Wheatley? Moore? Anselmo? Or one of the defensive coaches?

I'll make the same prediction I did last year. Anselmo retires.

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[SUalldway]

Sorry but when the special teams are consistently terrible and cost us games it is on the head coach. Just like winning is ultimately on the head coach. He never throws a block or makes a tackle, but ultimately it is on him. And our special teams under Marrone have been absolutely inexcusable

And there is no improvement on the STs, over the long-term. Need some new blood to guide STs. It has been & continues to be a major factor in the L's.

 

[OrangeinBoston]

Maybe we just need a better punter.

Maybe we need a better FG kicker.

Maybe we need a WR who catches better than West - who I think has dropped at least three TD passes this fall - crucial ones.

Maybe we need an RB who can hit a HR or can return a KO - like Ralph David Abernathy.

Maybe we need better LBs and DLs.

I don't know if Marrone is getting all that he can get from this group. I just don't know.

I think he has gotten as much as can be gotten out of Ryan Nassib - and that tells me a lot.

So, why isn't Norton given a shot at FGs? Krautman has failed.

So, why isn't Clark or Flemming in on those plays instead of West?

So, why isn't Morris playing at RB? Etc., etc.

If your players can't do it, try somebody else.

Look, if you believe the players are at fault, then it is a coaching responsibility to put in other players. And, don't give me the stuff about the best players are already playing. No starter on this team is that good that he isn't expendable (except maybe Nassib because of a lack of any real option).

 

[Marsh01]

we need better players. Thats it. Analyzing everything else is crap.

 

[bevosu]

When a teacher knows the curriculum, and the student continually fails to grasp the material, at a certain point it makes sense to question the effectiveness of the teaching.

Maybe we aren't to that point yet. If we aren't, we're at least to the point where it's on the table.

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Yup, you make a valid point about questioning the effectiveness of the teaching. But I've been in classes (and I suspect you have too) where the teacher knows the subject, and teaches it well, yet many of the students in the class fail to grasp the material.

Sometimes it's laziness, sometimes it's limited mental capacity (talent). There can be factors outside of the competency of the teacher. I know...I was one of those students in high school.

 

[Alsacs]

So, last week Marrone made the right decision on fourth down and this week he didn't.

Last week he is a terrific coach and this week he is not.

Was Cincy disciplined yesterday? Should their coach be fired? Are you putting a short leash on him as well when his team fumbles repeatedly in the red zone and nearly throws the game losing INT while committing eight penalties for 90 yards?

I don't agree with all of the decisions Marrone makes. I don't agree with all of the decisions that Bill Belicheck makes or that Les Miles makes. But Coach Marrone's decisions yesterday did not decide the game - not even close.

The players' failure to do the basic things caused the loss - catch the friggin ball!!!

None of us really knows what goes into the coaching decisions that we see and try to analyze.

Marrone has done a great job - he's not going anywhere for a long time so you can stop with the discussion over whether or not he should be fired.

And with all due respect who the heck are you to announce that "DM is getting a 5th year with a tight leash next year."?

Are you his immediate superior at Syracuse University? Or his dog catcher?

If he has done a great job, I would love to hear what you would say about coaches with over .500 records. I give Doug Marrone a C+ in his four years at SU. Year 1- C, Year 2-B+ Year 3- C- Year 4- leaning C. Its the coaches job too make the right decisions. Why did he go for 4th and 1 last week down 9 and went for the FG this week ? If its all the players coaches would never get fired. DM even said himself if he can't turn it around in 5 years he wouldn't be around, and I doubt he believes he has turned it around so far he only has a contract thru next year. I doubt Dr. Gross gives a paid extension beyond 1 more year. I am going to be honest with you, your position comes off like you are talking down to fans who are upset with DM. He deserves blame for the failure of the Special Teams.

 

[OrangePA]

Is he not responsible for getting the right players? The way you are making it sound, we should never have fired Grob. The head coach isn't responsible for anything.

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Yes. He is responsible for coming up with the right players.

And he is in the process of doing that - he is 21-25 with three games to go in his fourth season. Robinson won ten games in four seasons.

So, Marrone is making significant headway in the talent department.

But he has a way to go.

He clearly needs more home run threats, bigger, stronger and faster WRs, more hitters like Sharmarko Thomas, a better punter and apparently a better kicker. Kids will make mistakes - Cincy made plenty yesterday. Better talent will make those mistakes less crucial.

I agonized over what I watched yesterday, but I realize that we are on the way to some great times with SU Football.

 

[orange79]

I'll make the same prediction I did last year. Anselmo retires.

Keep making that prediction and eventually you'll be right.

 

[SUalldway]

Yes. He is responsible for coming up with the right players.

And he is in the process of doing that - he is 21-25 with three games to go in his fourth season. Robinson won ten games in four seasons.

So, Marrone is making significant headway in the talent department.

But he has a way to go.

He clearly needs more home run threats, bigger, stronger and faster WRs, more hitters like Sharmarko Thomas, a better punter and apparently a better kicker. Kids will make mistakes - Cincy made plenty yesterday. Better talent will make those mistakes less crucial.

I agonized over what I watched yesterday, but I realize that we are on the way to some great times with SU Football.

He needs to find more play-makers sooner than later, on both sides of the ball. I would have liked to see more of Eskridge, Lynch, Broyld, Flemming, & maybe some others.

 

[Chip]

So, last week Marrone made the right decision on fourth down and this week he didn't.

Correct. Doesn't mean he's a bad coach. Just means that last week he made the right decision on fourth down and this week he didn't. I bet if you sat down with him one on one, he'd agree.

Getting the lead down to 8 when you have had so much trouble stopping the other team doesn't make a lot of sense. Not when it's 4th and short. You may not get that chance again. So try to get the TD there, then the 2, then next time if you're not so fortunate you try the FG to tie.

You've said yourself how it's on players like Krautman, so why put it in that player's hands (or foot) in that particular situation?

 

[baggerbob]

We still lack players,case in point was the play that turned the game PTG missed a blitz and Ryan is blindsided and fumbles. Our current running backs are not good enough to play at this level. In 1987 we had Daryl Johnson, Rob Drummond, Michael Owens, 1998 Rob Konrad and Mcintosh. On a passing play with 1 blocker in 1987 you have Daryl, in 1998 you have Rob. On that play their eyes would have lit up with a chance to bury a DB, and then slip into the flat for a pass which would have gone for at least 35-45 yds. Two guys who could block catch and once they got up to speed very hard to bring down. When we start to get those type of players again we will be back. Any of the 5 players would be starting on this team.

 

[sufandu]

I think it's great to see how far we've come while simultaneously being disappointed with the mistakes that have costed us games this year.

'09 - The offense looked downright dysfunctional at the beginning of the year and showed a little improvement by the end of the year. The defense made a huge jump thanks to Schafer and personnel moves to get us more athletic. The games we won were due to a lot of grit.

'10 - The offense looked a bit less dysfunctional but basically relied on DC to literally drag the team along with him. The defense showed continued improvement with everyone back and was at times dominant but suffered from a lack of depth toward the end of the season against some physical teams. An increase in physicality led us to a bowl win.

'11 - Expectations were that the defense would take a step back while younger players stepped into new roles and a lot of size was lost along the d-line from the year before. The hope was the offense would pick up the slack. That didn't materialize, and we all realized just how much we had relied on DC to carry the offense. Losses of key players to injury or stupidity didn't help the cause. We took a step back.

'12 - Changes in the offense have led to more production. The offensive line looks the best it has in a long time. The lack of gamebreaking speed and the inability to blow defenses off of the ball in short yardage are the two most glaring weaknesses. Untimely mistakes, that haven't occured with this kind of frequency in previous years, have hamstrung the offense and negated some of the added production in the point column. The defense has looked the most physical it's been since Freeney was planting quarterbacks on their backsides. Our linebackers are faster but smaller. If the d-line can tie up the o-line, they look fantastic. If blockers get on them, they disappear. There are definite holes in the secondary and it's ridiculously frustrating to give up third and longs far too often because we have to decide to only rush four and give the quarterback all day to throw or blitz and take the chance one of the weak links in the secondary gets beat. Team wide, we have more capable players and depth everywhere. Mistakes have clearly been our undoing.

I'm hopeful the mistake issues will get fixed given that this hasn't been an every year problem. It may not be this year, but I don't think it will become the program's identity. Some have questioned Marrone's ability to recruit because the young kids haven't been able to supplant veterans. I think this is a short sighted view of who he's recruiting. He said at the beginning, and we all agreed, that we would have to recruit athletic underdeveloped kids closer to home because we can't compete with the factories for top recruits in their home states. I think he's done exactly that. We're just starting to see his first recruits get to their junior years and some of the guys he's recruiting since then are supposed to be more athletic. These guys will need some time too. Our most athletic running backs are probably redshirting right now.

I think we've seen a slow and steady improvement in the program. The mistakes that have cost us so many games should be rectifiable long term. As frustrating as it is, I'd much rather know we could have won a game than say we had no chance because we got pushed all over the place. This is the type of team that makes us want to slam our heads into a wall and then fixes the mental things to go from 5-7 to 10-2 the next year (I'm not making a prediciton with either one of those btw).

 

[sufandu]

We still lack players,case in point was the play that turned the game PTG missed a blitz and Ryan is blindsided and fumbles. Our current running backs are not good enough to play at this level. In 1987 we had Daryl Johnson, Rob Drummond, Michael Owens, 1998 Rob Konrad and Mcintosh. On a passing play with 1 blocker in 1987 you have Daryl, in 1998 you have Rob. On that play their eyes would have lit up with a chance to bury a DB, and then slip into the flat for a pass which would have gone for at least 35-45 yds. Two guys who could block catch and once they got up to speed very hard to bring down. When we start to get those type of players again we will be back. Any of the 5 players would be starting on this team.

We also had those players in 1986 when we went 5-6. This team could fix it's mistakes and look completely different next year. I'm not disagreeing that those guys were better players. When we start to get those types, the big plays they give us will make us so much better.

 

[Crusty]

When a teacher knows the curriculum, and the student continually fails to grasp the material, at a certain point it makes sense to question the effectiveness of the teaching.

Maybe we aren't to that point yet. If we aren't, we're at least to the point where it's on the table.

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Yes, but also on the table is the student's ability to learn i.e. coachability.

 

[Crusty]

At the end of the day this season comes down to 2 points. If we beat NW we are 5-4 looking for one more win to go bowling. Give the staff a freakin break.
We lost Suger Bear and Raymon - whose fault is that?
We are improving and good things are ahead.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Yes, but also on the table is the student's ability to learn i.e. coachability.

I'm not discounting that. I agree with you and Bevo.

That said, we have made an uncommon event, getting kicks blocked, into a common one. That sticks out so much.

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