IPF...anything yet??

[FAL]

Yeah I've heard this also and that the reason it has become such a snag is blowback from the city over the stadium issue.

Great! Just what we need--a p!ssing contest between town and gown. Gee--it's not like SU doesn't generate any income for the city or anything. :bang:

 

[kcsu]

Yeah I've heard this also and that the reason it has become such a snag is blowback from the city over the stadium issue.

Figures Syracuse officials cant find their ass with a flashlight

 

[Full_Rebar]

Why can't SU build it in a different spot at Manley? Does that stream run under the entire footprint?

 

[cuseinchina]

Yeah I've heard this also and that the reason it has become such a snag is blowback from the city over the stadium issue.

Is THIS true?? If so that is insane and the mayor is dumber than she already looks for passing on all that potential money. You don't really want to play hardball with one of the few positive things your decaying city has going for it.

 

[OttoMets]

Is THIS true?? If so that is insane and the mayor is dumber than she already looks for passing on all that potential money. You don't really want to play hardball with one of the few positive things your decaying city has going for it.

Of course it's not true.

 

[cuseinchina]

Of course it's not true.

why, is inane political retribution an uncommon part of state and local politics in this country? I hope you're right but while upsetting wouldn't be shocked if it were true. Perhaps the original poster can elaborate.

 

[OttoMets]

why, is inane political retribution an uncommon part of state and local politics in this country? I hope you're right but while upsetting wouldn't be shocked if it were true. Perhaps the original poster can elaborate.

It's like talking to a wall with some of the people on here. Again:

The city has no jurisdiction over the review of the project's impact on the waterway. This is now before the Army Corps of Engineers, which moves slowly. As was covered last summer, the proposal was approved by the city's planning commission (which doesn't, by the way, make a habit of playing political games over perceived slights that may or may not actually exist).

From the minutes (available to the public and easy to find):

5 August 2013:
"9) Z-2399 M4

Planned Institutional District Plan Amendment

Amend the Manley PID District Plan

1301-1487 East Colvin Street, 1408-1500 Lancaster Avenue,

312-400 Haffendon Road, and 242 Morningside Terrace

Syracuse University (owner/applicant)

Planned Institutional District


Mr. Steve Schroeder, Assistant Director for Planning for Syracuse University at 640 Skytop Road, spoke to the Commission about the proposal, which consists of amending the Manley Planned Institutional District District Plan in order to facilitate three future projects on property situated at 1301-1487 East Colvin Street, 1408-1500 Lancaster Avenue, 312-400 Haffendon Road, and 242 Morningside Terrace.


No one spoke in favor of or in opposition to the proposal.


After further discussion and review, Mr. Steve Kulick made a motion to approve the request with a negative SEQR determination. Ms. Rebecca Livengood seconded the motion. The motion passed unanimously."

26 August 2013:
"7) Z-2769

Project Plan Review

Construct a 102,300-Square Foot Athletic Practice Facility

1301, 1387, 1431 and 1455-1483 East Colvin Street, 312 and 400 Haffenden Road, and

242 Morningside Terrace

Syracuse University (owner/applicant)

Planned Institutional District


Mr. Steve Schroeder, Assistant Director for Planning for Syracuse University at 640 Skytop Road, spoke to the Commission about the proposal, which consists of constructing a 102,300-square foot indoor athletic practice facility on properties situated at 1301, 1387, 1431 and 1455-1483 East Colvin Street, 312 and 400 Haffenden Road, and 242 Morningside Terrace.


No one spoke in favor of or in opposition to the proposal.


After further discussion and review, Mr. Steve Kulick made a motion to approve the request with a negative SEQR declaration. Ms. Rebecca Livengood seconded the motion. The motion passed unanimously."

It's like a group of hens on here sometimes. "Hey, the city's ing up SU's building plan!" "Quick, everyone pile on!"

I can only repeat the same thing so many times. The city approved the project. SU's purchased the materials and staged them on Skytop. When the Army Corps signs off, SU's going to start building.

 

[FAL]

"I can only repeat the same thing so many times. The city approved the project. SU's purchased the materials and staged them on Skytop. When the Army Corps signs off, SU's going to start building."


Sorry, but other than the stored materials, this is the first time many of us have read this.

 

[OrangeinBoston]

"I can only repeat the same thing so many times. The city approved the project. SU's purchased the materials and staged them on Skytop. When the Army Corps signs off, SU's going to start building."

Sorry, but other than the stored materials, this is the first time many of us have read this.

Well, not having all the facts never stopped any of our fine board members from being idiots.

 

[OttoMets]

"I can only repeat the same thing so many times. The city approved the project. SU's purchased the materials and staged them on Skytop. When the Army Corps signs off, SU's going to start building."

Sorry, but other than the stored materials, this is the first time many of us have read this.

I don't mean that as a criticism of you (or anyone in particular). I have posted the same thing (minus the quotes from the planning commission minutes) in every thread about the delays, though.

 

[oldpinepoint]

I don't mean that as a criticism of you (or anyone in particular). I have posted the same thing (minus the quotes from the planning commission minutes) in every thread about the delays, though.

Many of us have posted this, been known for months

 

[FAL]

I don't mean that as a criticism of you (or anyone in particular). I have posted the same thing (minus the quotes from the planning commission minutes) in every thread about the delays, though.

Hey, no offense taken! The minutes you posted shed a lot of light on the city's view of the project. I for one incorrectly perceived the city as playing petty politics. Wrong on that account. But can you or anyone else walk us through the process that the Corps of Engineers takes to get this project rolling? For Chrissake, it's not like they're rebuilding the levees after Hurricane Katrina or anything! Plus it will give us all something to beyotch about, which is always fun.

 

[OttoMets]

Hey, no offense taken! The minutes you posted shed a lot of light on the city's view of the project. I for one incorrectly perceived the city as playing petty politics. Wrong on that account. But can you or anyone else walk us through the process that the Corps of Engineers takes to get this project rolling? For Chrissake, it's not like they're rebuilding the levees after Hurricane Katrina or anything! Plus it will give us all something to beyotch about, which is always fun.

I'd love to; unfortunately, I haven't worked with the Corps before. State DECs are a little more responsive, I know that - SU would have more sway with them in expediting the process. At the most basic level, SU has submitted its plans to the Corps; they'll decide what impact the building will have on surrounding drainage, flow upstream, flow downstream (which has flooded in the past, but in the era before the Corps had jurisdiction over this kind of waterway), etc.

Based on my understanding, this shouldn't be too far from a rubber stamp. The stream's been built over with fields and then the track since at least the '70s. I don't even know why they'd need to replace the culvert it runs through (but, again, no Corps experience here).

The buzz I hear is that approval will come down soon (also, I know SU didn't buy all that steel and insulation and stuff just to let it spend another couple seasons out in the elements on Skytop).

 

[cuseinchina]

I'd love to; unfortunately, I haven't worked with the Corps before. State DECs are a little more responsive, I know that - SU would have more sway with them in expediting the process. At the most basic level, SU has submitted its plans to the Corps; they'll decide what impact the building will have on surrounding drainage, flow upstream, flow downstream (which has flooded in the past, but in the era before the Corps had jurisdiction over this kind of waterway), etc.

Based on my understanding, this shouldn't be too far from a rubber stamp. The stream's been built over with fields and then the track since at least the '70s. I don't even know why they'd need to replace the culvert it runs through (but, again, no Corps experience here).

The buzz I hear is that approval will come down soon (also, I know SU didn't buy all that steel and insulation and stuff just to let it spend another couple seasons out in the elements on Skytop).

Where is the Army Corps of Engineers office located that they have to deal with? Is this in Albany or is it a northeast region office or how does it work?

 

[sutomcat]

Why can't SU build it in a different spot at Manley? Does that stream run under the entire footprint?

The stream does not run under the entire footprint. It is a small creek at that point and I bet it flows through a pipe as it makes its way across the Manley complex. It comes out from a pipe when it emerges off on Lancaster and Meadowbrook anyway.

I would think the problem is that for the first time there will be a big roofed building over the stream that will concentrate the rain falling on the roof to a couple of points. The plans probably call for the rain water from the roof to flow directly into the pipe/stream, which would presumably drive markedly more water through it. .
The real problem, I would think, is the Meadowbrook area around Barry Park and the Hookway practice fields is very prone to flooding and they don't want to make that existing problem worse by just rubber stamping this.

I would think the risk could be mitigated by creating some temporary holding areas for rain water along the perimeter of the building. This would fit right in with modern green initiatives popular on college campuses. SU might even save some money using it to help water the grass playing fields nearby.

Any engineers willing to weigh in with comments?

 

[OttoMets]

Where is the Army Corps of Engineers office located that they have to deal with? Is this in Albany or is it a northeast region office or how does it work?

I believe Onondaga County falls within the Buffalo regional office's oversight. It's not a huge region, but I believe it covers most of Upstate's Great Lakes shoreline and parts of northwesteast Pennsylvania and northeast Ohio, too.

 

[OttoMets]

I believe Onondaga County falls within the Buffalo regional office's oversight. It's not a huge region, but I believe it covers most of Upstate's Great Lakes shoreline and parts of northeast Pennsylvania and Ohio, too.

Yep, here's a better visualization: http://www.usace.army.mil/Locations.aspx

 

[OttoMets]

The stream does not run under the entire footprint. It is a small creek at that point and I bet it flows through a pipe as it makes its way across the Manley complex. It comes out from a pipe when it emerges off on Lancaster and Meadowbrook anyway.

I would think the problem is that for the first time there will be a big roofed building over the stream that will concentrate the rain falling on the roof to a couple of points. The plans probably call for the rain water from the roof to flow directly into the pipe/stream, which would presumably drive markedly more water through it. .
The real problem, I would think, is the Meadowbrook area around Barry Park and the Hookway practice fields is very prone to flooding and they don't want to make that existing problem worse by just rubber stamping this.

I would think the risk could be mitigated by creating some temporary holding areas for rain water along the perimeter of the building. This would fit right in with modern green initiatives popular on college campuses. SU might even save some money using it to help water the grass playing fields nearby.

Any engineers willing to weigh in with comments?

Very good points.

A rubberized track and field turf infield aren't the most porous surfaces, but they kicked off a lot less water than a 102,000 square foot roof will. And Meadowbrook does have problems with flooding. Recycling rainwater for irrigation would be a great idea.

On one hand it's good that they're being thorough. On the other, New York isn't one of the states where we'd have to worry about the state regulatory body blindly rushing a bad proposal through; we've got pretty strong protections and don't need federal intervention (as, say, West Virginia might).

I don't recall what sort of runoff protections SU's plan proposed, but hopefully they were good ones and the Corps won't want any changes.

 

[Ottoble]

Agreed all just rumors, Just reporting what someone told me.

 

[GoSU96]

The Federal Gov't has become an oppressive nightmare. Non responsive, non accountable disaster with too much authority and responsibility.

The fact that the Arny Corp of Engineers has cognizance over something like this explains why they have problems with the big stuff they should focus on.

 

[OttoMets]

The Federal Gov't has become an oppressive nightmare. Non responsive, non accountable disaster with too much authority and responsibility.

The fact that the Arny Corp of Engineers has cognizance over something like this explains why they have problems with the big stuff they should focus on.

Well, yes.

But if a great number of states conduct their affairs like third-world countries, where does that leave the rest of us? One can understand why they feds want to step in and effect a certain level of regulation. It's just a pain for those of us who've been doing things responsibly all along.

 

[GoSU96]

Well, yes.

But if a great number of states conduct their affairs like third-world countries, where does that leave the rest of us? One can understand why they feds want to step in and effect a certain level of regulation. It's just a pain for those of us who've been doing things responsibly all along.

Let local government govern local issues. Localized flooding is a local issue whether it is in Syracuse, NY or somewhere in the mid south.

The Federal Gov't should be focused on dealing with catastrophic scenarios. Bad local governance is the problem of the people that live there.

 

[OttoMets]

Let local government govern local issues. Localized flooding is a local issue whether it is in Syracuse, NY or somewhere in the mid south.

The Federal Gov't should be focused on dealing with catastrophic scenarios. Bad local governance is the problem of the people that live there.

It can become everyone's problem, unfortunately, whether we're talking about FEMA responding to a disaster exacerbated by a locality's mistreatment of a natural resource or an environmental catastrophe brought on by using contaminated fill in a local waterway or wetland.

We all bear the burden. I wish local jurisdictions could all adhere to a high standard and we could forgo wasting the federal government's resources (and dealing with their inefficiencies), but doing so would leave the nation in a worse situation.

 

[javadoc]

Let local government govern local issues. Localized flooding is a local issue whether it is in Syracuse, NY or somewhere in the mid south.

The Federal Gov't should be focused on dealing with catastrophic scenarios. Bad local governance is the problem of the people that live there.

A serious question, if indeed the Army Corps is involved - what the hell gives them jurisdiction over an underground stream section in Syracuse, NY?

 

[OttoMets]

A serious question, if indeed the Army Corps is involved - what the hell gives them jurisdiction over an underground stream section in Syracuse, NY?

As far as I can tell, it's Section 404 jurisdiction regarding wetlands and wetland-adjacent streams.

I get it, but I think the state DEC would do an equally thorough and much faster (45-day) job of reviewing and approving.

(This all assumes that SU's plan is a good one, of course. There's always the possibility that they did a poor job and the regulatory body has kicked it back to them for modifications.)