Is JB needed for our 2-3 zone to be successful...

[orangecuse]

Bottom line, when two great coaches go up against each other, they both usually make all the right moves. Who wins and loses comes down to other factors. Boeheim's performances as a coach are on par with any coach ever. His results are not. I call that luck, but maybe there is a better word for it.

I also don't think it "all come out in the wash" at all. Some benefit from luck, and others don't. Obviously Boeheim has been on both sides in his career, but on a whole he's been on the unlucky side about as much as any coach I can think of. If Keith Smart missed that shot (which was about as low a percentage shot as you could hope for) would Boeheim be a better coach? Of course not. He would, however, be more successful. This is the kind of thing I am talking about. Things that have nothing to do with coaching that change the success Boeheim has had over his career.

I still think if Z. Sims doesnt get hurt in '96 against Kentucky Syracuse wins that game. He did get hurt, and that's just bad luck.

Look at Calhoun who has three titles. They came against Georgia Tech, Butler, and Duke. Seems pretty lucky to me that he happened to go up against two of the worst teams to ever make a title game.

Boeheim on the other hand went up against Indiana (in their hay-day with Bob Knight), that Kentucky team with 9 guys who went pro considered by some to be the best college team in the modern era, and blue blood Kansas.

I believe game plans and strategies dictate a lot, but when you are talking about inconsistent college age armatures, plenty of parity, a way too short three point line, and a one and done end of season scenario you have to admit luck plays a huge part in who wins every year.

Dang, I say the same thing to my superiors all the time about my performance being on par with all of my colleagues everywhere...now if I can only convince them that it (results) isn't causally related.

 

[tbonezone]

"But pre-JB this was a regional program, where winning was primarily amongst the St Bonas and Colgates of the world. We now scoff at the mid-majors. SU now is not only in the attendance race every year but is a huge draw on the road."

you did catch the tribute to the 1975 final four team ? that roy danforth team before boeheim ? and the carrier dome has had a bit to do with attendance #'s.

 

[Dave85]

I think the real question here is how not playing zone exclusively affects our recruiting. JB recruits for the zone. Hopkins has said he will play both zone and man. I think our recruiting will be affected the most because we won't be targeting specific styles of athletes. Also, not sure if it is true or not, but I am sure some recruits are reluctant to come here as the NBA plays man to man defense.

For many years I would yell at the TV "go M2M". And then after while I just gave up. And then JB made these comments in this article:

"The short history of our zone is we started out as a man-to-man team with some zone and over the years our zone got better, but we still played man,'' Boeheim said. "The problem when you play man, you have to spend an hour on your man defense every day and when you play your preseason games, your non-conference games, if you're playing man your zone isn't getting better.''

"So finally it dawned on me,'' said Boeheim, "after about 27 or 28 years, finally, takes me a while, that if we played zone all the time and didn't waste time playing man to man and put some wrinkles in the zone because we had more time to practice it, that our defense would be better.''

Here's the best quote (I forgot it the first time):

"When a man-to-man coach is getting beat, he tells his team to play defense better, he doesn't switch to a zone,'' Boeheim said. "When we get beat in our zone for whatever reason it is, we try to change it or play it better.''

http://www.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/index.ssf/2013/03/syracuse_coach_jim_boeheim_say.html

How can you argue with a hall of fame coach?

 

[Sgt Cuse]

"But pre-JB this was a regional program, where winning was primarily amongst the St Bonas and Colgates of the world. We now scoff at the mid-majors. SU now is not only in the attendance race every year but is a huge draw on the road."

you did catch the tribute to the 1975 final four team ? that roy danforth team before boeheim ? and the carrier dome has had a bit to do with attendance #'s.

Yes, and mid-majors can still make fluke runs to the final four. It was a nice story of an undersized team making good. Didn't the coach capitalize on that and get the Tulane gig?

And yes, the carrier dome, the Big East and now the ACC have all transpired after JB has been the coach. The program has made tremendous strides and has a good foundation.
Of course the hope is to transfer the huge SU following onto Hop and build on it. That would probably happen if he wins.

The problems arise if he is mediocre. If he loses while employing a M2M defense, I suspect the deterioration of the fan base is much quicker. The out of state transplanted upstate NYer could lose connection pretty quick - along with Rochesterians, Binghamton, and Watertown. Having a CA native switch to a nondescript defense and have mediocre results is a recipe for one of the quickest, steepest, losses of a fan base in college history.

 

[br801]

Yes, and mid-majors can still make fluke runs to the final four. It was a nice story of an undersized team making good. Didn't the coach capitalize on that and get the Tulane gig?

And yes, the carrier dome, the Big East and now the ACC have all transpired after JB has been the coach. The program has made tremendous strides and has a good foundation.
Of course the hope is to transfer the huge SU following onto Hop and build on it. That would probably happen if he wins.

The problems arise if he is mediocre. If he loses while employing a M2M defense, I suspect the deterioration of the fan base is much quicker. The out of state transplanted upstate NYer could lose connection pretty quick - along with Rochesterians, Binghamton, and Watertown. Having a CA native switch to a nondescript defense and have mediocre results is a recipe for one of the quickest, steepest, losses of a fan base in college history.

Losing would trigger the deterioration of the fan base, plain and simple. Most fans don't care about the defense being played and/or can't distinguish one defense from another. And the fact that Hop is a native Californian is irrelevant; he's been at Syracuse for nearly 30 years now.

 

[tbonezone]

SU under danforth a FLUKE ?
----------------------------
1968-1969 9-16 .360
1969-1970 12-12 .500
1970-1971 19-7 .731
NIT Tournament
1971-1972 22-6 .786
NIT Tournament
1972-1973 24-5 .828
NCAA Tournament
1973-1974 19-7 .731
NCAA Tournament
1974-1975 23 -9 .719
NCAA National Champion Runner Up; Final Four
1975-1976 20-9 .690
NCAA Tournament

148-70 .679

the original manley menace who started the win streak.

yeah that was sure some sh#tbirdstorm boeheim inherited

 

[orangecuse]

"But pre-JB this was a regional program, where winning was primarily amongst the St Bonas and Colgates of the world. We now scoff at the mid-majors. SU now is not only in the attendance race every year but is a huge draw on the road."

you did catch the tribute to the 1975 final four team ? that roy danforth team before boeheim ? and the carrier dome has had a bit to do with attendance #'s.

The advent of ESPN and the incredible exposure if gave to SU and the Big East at the time, imo, was the most critical factor that really launched SU and its hoops program into the stratosphere.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Losing would trigger the deterioration of the fan base, plain and simple. Most fans don't care about the defense being played and/or can't distinguish one defense from another. And the fact that Hop is a native Californian is irrelevant; he's been at Syracuse for nearly 30 years now.

Yes, I guess there is a lot of continuity with Hop having so much history here - not quite to JB territory but close.

And I agree, losing would be the largest problem. Messing with the tradition of the zone would not be wise IMO.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

SU under danforth a FLUKE ?
----------------------------
1968-1969 9-16 .360
1969-1970 12-12 .500
1970-1971 19-7 .731
NIT Tournament
1971-1972 22-6 .786
NIT Tournament
1972-1973 24-5 .828
NCAA Tournament
1973-1974 19-7 .731
NCAA Tournament
1974-1975 23 -9 .719
NCAA National Champion Runner Up; Final Four
1975-1976 20-9 .690
NCAA Tournament

148-70 .679

the original manley menace who started the win streak.

yeah that was sure some sh#tstorm boeheim inherited

If Hop starts out 9-16 and 12-12 he too might want to consider the Tulane job.

 

[OttoMets]

...

"When a man-to-man coach is getting beat, he tells his team to play defense better, he doesn't switch to a zone,'' Boeheim said. "When we get beat in our zone for whatever reason it is, we try to change it or play it better.''

http://www.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/index.ssf/2013/03/syracuse_coach_jim_boeheim_say.html

How can you argue with a hall of fame coach?

I can argue with him because, as is often the case, Boeheim gets the facts wrong in trying to make a point.

Shaka Smart's man was getting beat a couple weeks ago and he did switch to a zone. I believe I saw Bill Self do the same thing earlier this season. Heck, Boeheim himself opted for zone a number of times in the '80s and '90s when the man wasn't doing its job.

There're many valid reasons why Boeheim prefers zone. I wish he'd stick to sharing those and leave the silliness to others.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Yes, and mid-majors can still make fluke runs to the final four. It was a nice story of an undersized team making good. Didn't the coach capitalize on that and get the Tulane gig?

And yes, the carrier dome, the Big East and now the ACC have all transpired after JB has been the coach. The program has made tremendous strides and has a good foundation.
Of course the hope is to transfer the huge SU following onto Hop and build on it. That would probably happen if he wins.

The problems arise if he is mediocre. If he loses while employing a M2M defense, I suspect the deterioration of the fan base is much quicker. The out of state transplanted upstate NYer could lose connection pretty quick - along with Rochesterians, Binghamton, and Watertown. Having a CA native switch to a nondescript defense and have mediocre results is a recipe for one of the quickest, steepest, losses of a fan base in college history.

First of all, Hop is not going to kick the zone to the curb. Secondly, if there is a drop-off in the program of any sort, it's not going to be because we're mixing in different defenses. There is a heck of a lot more to being a head coach than just the type of defense you play. It's quite asinine to already have a scapegoat lined up.

 

[tbonezone]

if we go 11-14 before hop takes the reins it don't look so bad. bottom line is boeheim didn't turn the program around as you believe. admit it. you'll feel better.
and frankly 1 championship in 40 attempts at the same university with your system is hardly "HELLSAFIRE." in fact that's kinda flukey.
40 friggin tosses is a whole lotta time and money spent
to knock down just one prize monkey.

 

[HoustonCuse]

It is funny how many "regional mid-major programs" there are in the all-time Top 5 winningest programs list.

I get that Syracuse was not what it is now back in the day, but who was? College basketball in general has exploded into whole new dimensions since 1976. Syracuse was still a program who made it to a Final Four before that, and remember that was in the true regional days where SU had to win the east to get there and that meant some of the all-time best programs were in the way. The program was big enough to bring in Dave Bing and a host of other top players, it was big enough to be invited into the Big East as a cornerstone member, it was big enough to even considering playing games in a 50,000 seat dome with a straight face and immediately draw 25-30k crowds in 1980.

I just don't buy that a program could go from being Colgate in 1975 to drawing 30k fans in 1981. It took UConn nearly 2 decades to make a transition like that, even with a hall of fame coach.

 

[FrancoPizza]

It is funny how many "regional mid-major programs" there are in the all-time Top 5 winningest programs list.

I get that Syracuse was not what it is now back in the day, but who was? College basketball in general has exploded into whole new dimensions since 1976. Syracuse was still a program who made it to a Final Four before that, and remember that was in the true regional days where SU had to win the east to get there and that meant some of the all-time best programs were in the way. The program was big enough to bring in Dave Bing and a host of other top players, it was big enough to be invited into the Big East as a cornerstone member, it was big enough to even considering playing games in a 50,000 seat dome with a straight face and immediately draw 25-30k crowds in 1980.

I just don't buy that a program could go from being Colgate in 1975 to drawing 30k fans in 1981. It took UConn nearly 2 decades to make a transition like that, even with a hall of fame coach.

Careful, you're making too much sense.

 

[tbonezone]

More so if you remember the early BE UCONN and Seton hall both came into the league as somewhat of a joke and soon after made us stop laughing.

 

[Cusefan0307]

It is funny how many "regional mid-major programs" there are in the all-time Top 5 winningest programs list.

I get that Syracuse was not what it is now back in the day, but who was? College basketball in general has exploded into whole new dimensions since 1976. Syracuse was still a program who made it to a Final Four before that, and remember that was in the true regional days where SU had to win the east to get there and that meant some of the all-time best programs were in the way. The program was big enough to bring in Dave Bing and a host of other top players, it was big enough to be invited into the Big East as a cornerstone member, it was big enough to even considering playing games in a 50,000 seat dome with a straight face and immediately draw 25-30k crowds in 1980.

I just don't buy that a program could go from being Colgate in 1975 to drawing 30k fans in 1981. It took UConn nearly 2 decades to make a transition like that, even with a hall of fame coach.

Before my time, but I'm almost certain we weren't drawing 30K until the late 80's. Early Dome crowds while rowdier than today's crowd were much smaller so I've been told.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

It is funny how many "regional mid-major programs" there are in the all-time Top 5 winningest programs list.

I get that Syracuse was not what it is now back in the day, but who was? College basketball in general has exploded into whole new dimensions since 1976. Syracuse was still a program who made it to a Final Four before that, and remember that was in the true regional days where SU had to win the east to get there and that meant some of the all-time best programs were in the way. The program was big enough to bring in Dave Bing and a host of other top players, it was big enough to be invited into the Big East as a cornerstone member, it was big enough to even considering playing games in a 50,000 seat dome with a straight face and immediately draw 25-30k crowds in 1980.

I just don't buy that a program could go from being Colgate in 1975 to drawing 30k fans in 1981. It took UConn nearly 2 decades to make a transition like that, even with a hall of fame coach.

Funny how many blue bloods lose their coaches to Tulane.

And the point was SU has changed tremendously in the 40 years. It is a much bigger brand now. And a big part of that brand is its zone D. I hope Hop doesn't mess with it.

And for Hop, if this small sample is any indication, it looks like he is going to have some in-game strategy learning to do. JB got better. I think Hop will need to make up for the in-game shortcomings by increasing the talent that comes in - recruiting.

 

[tbonezone]

the "brand" has slipped quite a bit and lost quite a bit of market cache. perhaps somewhat of a retool is in order. to push us back up to past previous highs.

 

[Dave85]

I can argue with him because, as is often the case, Boeheim gets the facts wrong in trying to make a point.

Shaka Smart's man was getting beat a couple weeks ago and he did switch to a zone. I believe I saw Bill Self do the same thing earlier this season. Heck, Boeheim himself opted for zone a number of times in the '80s and '90s when the man wasn't doing its job.

There're many valid reasons why Boeheim prefers zone. I wish he'd stick to sharing those and leave the silliness to others.

Sorry, I will go with the hall fame coach over your opinion.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Funny how many blue bloods lose their coaches to Tulane.

And the point was SU has changed tremendously in the 40 years. It is a much bigger brand now. And a big part of that brand is its zone D. I hope Hop doesn't mess with it.

And for Hop, if this small sample is any indication, it looks like he is going to have some in-game strategy learning to do. JB got better. I think Hop will need to make up for the in-game shortcomings by increasing the talent that comes in - recruiting.

I want Hopkins to be his own man and do what he thinks will most help us win.

The zone as employed by JB is a great defense. It probably will be when Hopkins uses it. But it's just a tool...It's not part of our "brand" and if that figures into Hopkins' calculus at all, then hes not.the man to lead this program.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

SU under danforth a FLUKE ?
----------------------------
1968-1969 9-16 .360
1969-1970 12-12 .500
1970-1971 19-7 .731
NIT Tournament
1971-1972 22-6 .786
NIT Tournament
1972-1973 24-5 .828
NCAA Tournament
1973-1974 19-7 .731
NCAA Tournament
1974-1975 23 -9 .719
NCAA National Champion Runner Up; Final Four
1975-1976 20-9 .690
NCAA Tournament

148-70 .679

the original manley menace who started the win streak.

yeah that was sure some sh#tbirdstorm boeheim inherited

The FF was a fluke. Very lucky. Good for SU.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Bottom line, when two great coaches go up against each other, they both usually make all the right moves. Who wins and loses comes down to other factors. Boeheim's performances as a coach are on par with any coach ever. His results are not. I call that luck, but maybe there is a better word for it.

I also don't think it "all come out in the wash" at all. Some benefit from luck, and others don't. Obviously Boeheim has been on both sides in his career, but on a whole he's been on the unlucky side about as much as any coach I can think of. If Keith Smart missed that shot (which was about as low a percentage shot as you could hope for) would Boeheim be a better coach? Of course not. He would, however, be more successful. This is the kind of thing I am talking about. Things that have nothing to do with coaching that change the success Boeheim has had over his career.

I still think if Z. Sims doesnt get hurt in '96 against Kentucky Syracuse wins that game. He did get hurt, and that's just bad luck.

Look at Calhoun who has three titles. They came against Georgia Tech, Butler, and Duke. Seems pretty lucky to me that he happened to go up against two of the worst teams to ever make a title game.

Boeheim on the other hand went up against Indiana (in their hay-day with Bob Knight), that Kentucky team with 9 guys who went pro considered by some to be the best college team in the modern era, and blue blood Kansas.

I believe game plans and strategies dictate a lot, but when you are talking about inconsistent college age armatures, plenty of parity, a way too short three point line, and a one and done end of season scenario you have to admit luck plays a huge part in who wins every year.

I think we got huge breaks in region placement in 2003 and 2013.

 

[njcuse]

I said this a few days ago, and I will say it again, based on my 100 years of teaching. The sub teacher is not the teacher. He/she may be very good, impressive even; the kids may like the sub, respect the sub, listen and participate, but they know in the end, the sub is not running the show. I don't think I ever missed three days in a row, but even if I were out nine days, the classes and the show were still mine. The students knew I would be back, and that they would be subject to my style, my expectations, and my standards. Hop may have some growing pains as a head coach, but I believe he will do just fine once everyone knows he is running the show. I hope he stays with the zone as his primary defense; I have learned to love the zone as the iconic SU defense. But whatever direction he takes, I am confident he will be a solid coach. JB did not enter the Hall of Fame after his first nine games.

 

[tbonezone]

was said sub sitting in your classroom and your class alone for 20 years ? well that's a bit of a different context don't you think ? i'd hope they'd be prepared.

 

[UnderHisOwnPower]

During one of the games after JB returned an announcer made a comment that JB was masterful at making adjustments to our zone. The implication was JB was better at pulling the levers on the defense than coach Hop.

This is amazing defense:

"The Yellow Jackets scored just 22 points after halftime, shooting 29.6 percent. Their 3-point shooting dwindled from 40 percent to 12.5."
​

But almost on cue, JB throws this out there as if he knew I was thinking about it:

"People overlook defense," Boeheim said. "Trevor (Cooney) and (Mike Gbinije) are so good on defense. It's all overlooked because we play zone defense. You have to play defense in a zone. It's not some freaking magic trick here. You have to work at it and you have to play it."
​

So then my thinking has two fears. One fear is maybe coach Hop isn't ready. And my worst fear is after JB is gone maybe our defense will never be as good as it has been. Can anyone talk me off the ledge or do I jump into the abyss of fear?

Was Dean Smith needed for the 4 corner stall? Was Paul Westhead needed for the run and gun? Was Nolan Richardson needed for 40 minutes of hell? I'd say so. Each legendary coach has their signature impact on their teams, and the zone will be JBs. There is a reason K has him on the Olympic staff, and it ain't because of his low golf handicap. No coach can replicate how he uses it, but it's not the end of the world either. Have some fun learning what Hop's signature will be for his teams, and hopefully it won't be that St Johns has his number!